Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Silesian]

As for the chariots you were asking LeBrok about, read the Rig Veda yourself - there are good English language translations on the internet, and the chariot figures quite largely in the Rig Veda. There are lots of later Vedic material that mentions chariots, right up to the time the story of Krishna and Arjuna was written. Ever heard of Krishna's chariot?

Does any of the information from wiki prove or disprove your theories of Kurgan R1a Z 93/94 .invasion from steppe region. The stepp warriors who became farmers, did not leave many remains of their horses and chariots as of today; had gods representing oceans ?
Besides horses and chariots, have there been any weapons found in archeological sites, confirming your ideas; like arrowheads, spears, axes for example?

History

Proto-Indo-Iranians


The area of the spoke-wheeled chariot finds within the Sintashta-Petrovka culture is indicated in purple.


Development of the spoke-wheeled chariot is associated with the Proto-Indo-Iranians. The earliest fully developed war chariots known are from the chariot burials of the Andronovo (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka culture in modern Russia and Kazakhstan dating from around 2000 BCE.
The chariot must not necessarily be regarded as a marker for Indo-European or Indo-Iranian presence.^[2] According to Raulwing, it is an undeniable fact that only comparative Indo-European linguistics is able to furnish the methodological basics of the hypothesis of a "PIE chariot", in other words: "Ausserhalb der Sprachwissenschaft winkt keine Rettung!^[3]"^[4][5]
The earliest evidence for chariots in southern Central Asia (on the Oxus) dates to the Achaemenid period (apart from chariots harnessed by oxen, as seen on petroglyphs).^[6] No Andronovian chariot burial has been found south of the Oxus.^[7]

Have there been any examples of barbaric conquest, by the Indo-Aryans from Andronovo, for example the Romans invaded Britain. Archeological finds.

Dozens of skulls excavated in London have provided the first evidence of a possible burial ground for Roman headhunting victims in the capital.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-25744163

 

[LeBrok]

I'm patient . When you do find a sample chariot, horse remains, kurgan I hope you can share it with us.
What exactly were the customs they brought with them, that are known, and scientifically verified in the vedas?

Why don't you do some work too. I've asked you a question: when domesticated horse showed up in India first, before of after 2,000 BCE?
And let's do some more work:
There are obvious evidences of chariots in art and architecture, I've seen it myself. Trace the date when it showed up first, before or after 2,000 BCE.
What about language shift from non IE to IE after 1,800? Attested by finds of various tablets.

 

[Silesian]

Why don't you do some work too. I've asked you a question: when domesticated horse showed up in India first, before of after 2,000 BCE?
And let's do some more work:
There are obvious evidences of chariots in art and architecture, I've seen it myself. Trace the date when it showed up first, before or after 2,000 BCE.
What about language shift from non IE to IE after 1,800? Attested by finds of various tables.

I'm even willing to settle for some beads or trinkets at this point. There has to be some physical proof to show the migration/conquest of R1a-93/94 from the Andronovo/steppe, to the Sarasvati River (Sanskrit: सरस्वती नदी sárasvatī nadī) Rigvedic rivers mentioned in ancient Sanskrit texts. .
Or is it 100% anecdotal evidence ?

Domesticated horses did not seem to be a high point in sanskrit veda text? Did the migration of R1a-z93/94 originate from the steppe/Andronovo to sarasvati to Mitanni?
To the Mitanni and Hittites horse training and chariots were perhaps more important. Why would they mention training, while the sanskrit vedas have very little information on training horses and chariots ? All three had some similar gods, didn't they? Did Hittite/Mitanni/Vedic sanskrit gods, knowledge of horse/chariot, language originate in steppe/Andronovo/Volga culture, and spread with R1a z93/94?

Kikkuli, "master horse trainer (assussanni, virtually Sanskrit aśva-sana-) of the land Mitanni" (^LÚA-AŠ-ŠU-UŠ-ŠA-AN-NI ŠA KUR ^URUMI-IT-TA-AN-NI) was the author of a chariot horse training text written in the Hittite language, dating to the Hittite New Kingdom (around 1400 BC). The text is notable both for the information it provides about the development of Indo-European languages and for its content.......The Kikkuli Text addresses solely the conditioning, not education, of the horse.^[3] The Mitannians were acknowledged leaders in horse training and as a result of the horse training techniques learned from Kikkuli, Hittite charioteers forged an empire of the area which is now Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Northern Iraq.^[4] Surprisingly, the regime used 'interval training' techniques similar to those used so successfully by Three Day Eventers, endurance riders and others today and whose principles have only been studied by equine sports medicine researchers in the past 30 years.^[5].

 

[Sile]

I will ask again

Why in this Underhill paper is italians and tatars together and isolated from the others?

 

[Angela]

Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

Michael Franchetti: From Sheep To (Some) Horses.
I can't give you direct access because it's behind a pay wall if you go through google, but if you go to this google scholar page, you can access a full pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1,33&as_sdtp=

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

And then there's this, "Multiregional Emergence of Mobile Pastoralism"
It can also be accessed through that Google Scholar page...
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1,33&as_sdtp=

The latest paper comes from one of his students and has been posted by Dienekes, but I can't find a full pdf of it yet.
It's called Spengler et al, When Pastoralist Met Farmer"

If any of you take a look at these, I'll be interested to hear your take on the material.

 

[LeBrok]

Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

Michael Franchetti: From Sheep To (Some) Horses.
I can't give you direct access because it's behind a pay wall if you go through google, but if you go to this google scholar page, you can access a full pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1,33&as_sdtp=

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

And then there's this, "Multiregional Emergence of Mobile Pastoralism"
It can also be accessed through that Google Scholar page...
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1,33&as_sdtp=

The latest paper comes from one of his students and has been posted by Dienekes, but I can't find a full pdf of it yet.
It's called Spengler et al, When Pastoralist Met Farmer"

If any of you take a look at these, I'll be interested to hear your take on the material.

Thanks Angela. I didn't have time to go through the papers, but I really enjoyed synthesis of it during the presentation on youtube, from Dr Michael Franchetti.
Very interesting use of wheat grains during funeral although it wasn't consumed or grown by these people. The effort was great to bring these grains from South Asia. Interesting was a coment during question period that the grain could have been used for making beer like alcohol. One thing is certain that grain was something precious to be shared with deceased. Alcoholic drink can explain a great value they've put in this ritual. Although no alcohol residue was found so far in ceramics.

There was also a nice synthesis of diet of central asiatic cultures. This actually goes in face of hypothesis that Indo Europeans had come from India or Near East. If farmers moved from south to north they would have tried to lead their agricultural ways of life. We can't see it in any of this central asian cultures. The continuity of these cultures reach 4,000 BCE into BC and they were strictly pastoralists nomads. When we go to Europe we also can't see any farmers turning strictly pastoralists when migrating north. Honestly who would go north to change successful way of life if one can't grow wheat there, and from building first civilizations, to becoming wandering and poorer nomads. I think so far we don't have even one example of such transformation. Once you become a farmer there is no going back. That's pretty much a nail in a coffin of out of Indo Europeans coming out of India, or Fertile Crescent.

It is more natural and logical for poorer nomads invading the rich South, the rich farmers, becoming a ruling class and living from work of farmers. Such thing is attested by pastoralist Mongols and their invasion of the rest of Eurasia. They have even slowly became farmers in some places, places like south Ukraine and Crimea.

 

[Silesian]

Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

Excellent video. Cremations, very few horses, ritual grain offerings. His maps were especially informative. Thank you for posting this gem. I have a feeling we will be hearing more from professor Franchetti.

 

[Silesian]

Honestly who would go north to change successful way of life if one can't grow wheat there, and from building first civilizations, to becoming wandering and poorer nomads. I think so far we don't have even one example of such transformation. Once you become a farmer there is no going back. That's pretty much a nail in a coffin of out of Indo Europeans coming out of India, or Fertile Crescent.

It is more natural and logical for poorer nomads invading the rich South, the rich farmers, becoming a ruling class and living from work of farmers. Such thing is attested by pastoralist Mongols and their invasion of the rest of Eurasia. They have even slowly became farmers in some places, places like south Ukraine and Crimea.

I don't know what this means, probably nothing. But anytime you put Italo-Celtic/Hittite/Tocharian/Phrygian in one sentence it's got to peek your interest in a PIE R1a discussion.

The r-passive (mediopassive) was initially thought to be an innovation restricted to Italo-Celtic until it was found to be a retained archaism shared with Hittite, Tocharian, and possibly Phrygian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

 

[bicicleur 2]

Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

Michael Franchetti: From Sheep To (Some) Horses.
I can't give you direct access because it's behind a pay wall if you go through google, but if you go to this google scholar page, you can access a full pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1,33&as_sdtp=

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

And then there's this, "Multiregional Emergence of Mobile Pastoralism"
It can also be accessed through that Google Scholar page...
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1,33&as_sdtp=

The latest paper comes from one of his students and has been posted by Dienekes, but I can't find a full pdf of it yet.
It's called Spengler et al, When Pastoralist Met Farmer"

If any of you take a look at these, I'll be interested to hear your take on the material.

Hi Angela,

would you know more about this ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majiayao_culture

a group of Neolithic communities who lived primarily in the upper Yellow River region in eastern Gansu

The culture existed from 3100 BC to2700 BC. The earliest discoveries of copper and bronze objects in China occur at Majiayao sites

there is no source mentioned for this

I wonder, could copper and bronze have come through the Ganxi corridor that early?

 

[Nobody1]

I don't know what this means, probably nothing. But anytime you put Italo-Celtic/Hittite/Tocharian/Phrygian in one sentence it's got to peek your interest in a PIE R1a discussion.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

The similarities that are shared by Italic/Keltic/Tocharian like the r-endings (passive/deponent) as also in Hittite or the ā-subjunctive signalises the development from the common origins out of which these branches emerged from; An intermediate (isolate) language unit is thus not given (Watkins 1966); What this means with Y-DNA Hg's only known the more old corpses are examined i.e. the actual carriers;

 

[oriental]

The Sahara was not always a desert:

http://www.livescience.com/4180-sahara-desert-lush-populated.html

In the Bible, when Abraham went into Canaan, a land of milk and honey, had turned it into a desert and had to go to Egypt by Joseph's time to get food. Shepherds bring desertification wherever they go as the sheep and goats don't leave any green vegetation in the land especially in grasslands where there is not much rainfall. The browning of the land makes the air hotter thus the air is not depositing the moisture to the land. The entire Middle East and Central Asia were overrun with shepherds. Even today there are nomadic sheperds in Central Asia, Iran, Kazakhstan, etc. migrating annually to mountainous grasslands as it is only in the mountains where the moisture is released as the air is cooled.

In the U.S. we don't see too many "sheep-boy" movies but cowboy movies because they knew shepherds would destroy the grasslands. The ranchers drove away or killed the shepherds.

Horses were originally in dinner plates before they were ridden. Anyway the Saudis claim that the horse was domesticated in Arabia 9,000 years ago i.e. 7,000 BC. Well the Sahara, much of Arabia and the Middle East were lush grasslands before the shepherds turned the region into deserts. The only place where there were empires without the horse were in Mexico (Aztecs) and Peru(Incas). Empire started in the Middle East with horse if the horse was also domesticated in Arabia then it explains why empires started there with Sargon. The simplest solution is the best explanation and the proximity of the horse culture in Arabia shows early adaptaion to the horse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14658678

the domestication of the horse in Eurasia:

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2011/10/28/evidence-for-horse-domestication-clearer/#axzz2y2C6Nq3k

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120507154107.htm

http://www.history.com/news/horse-domestication-happened-across-eurasia-study-shows

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-17943974

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked...olution-and-Domestication-Year-In-Review-2012

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/HavemeyerEquineBehaviorLabHomePage/ReferenceLibraryHavemeyerEquineBehaviorLab

/HavemeyerWorkshops/HorseBehaviorandWelfare1316June2002/HorseBehaviorandWelfare2/DomesticationBreedDiversificationandEarlyHis/tabid/3127/Default.aspx

http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/S2007/llam1/horses1.html

I also have concerns when archaeologists say there is "art" in the caves. There were no school books or encyclopedia in those days. Those "art" probably served guides as there were no schools. They served to identify their dinner for their kids when they asked questions and also grow up to hunt the "right" animals.

 

[Silesian]

This Indo-European migration/expansion model (of the Anatolian hypothesis) does not reflect any of the actual Archaeological complexes and their continuity; And that is largely the problem with the Anatolian hypothesis;

So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);

Some wine producing areas in India R1a-z93/94 ?

Do you think the R1a-z93/94 domesticated horse trainers from Andronovo taught the locals how to make wine [PIE*win-o-] besides chariots?

The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos).^[9][10][11]

During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage. The religious text of the Vedas mentions at least one alcoholic drink that may have been wine related -sura which seems to have been a type of rice wine that was fermented with honey.

 

[LeBrok]

The Sahara was not always a desert:

http://www.livescience.com/4180-sahara-desert-lush-populated.html

In the Bible, when Abraham went into Canaan, a land of milk and honey, had turned it into a desert and had to go to Egypt by Joseph's time to get food. Shepherds bring desertification wherever they go as the sheep and goats don't leave any green vegetation in the land especially in grasslands where there is not much rainfall. The browning of the land makes the air hotter thus the air is not depositing the moisture to the land. The entire Middle East and Central Asia were overrun with shepherds. Even today there are nomadic sheperds in Central Asia, Iran, Kazakhstan, etc. migrating annually to mountainous grasslands as it is only in the mountains where the moisture is released as the air is cooled.

Can you explain why Sahara is still a desert even though there and no sheep and goats anymore for thousands of years? Also, why Serengeti is so green every year in spite of millions of gazelles, zebras, and other grazing animals "devastating" it every year?

 

[LeBrok]

Some wine producing areas in India R1a-z93/94 ?

Do you think the R1a-z93/94 domesticated horse trainers from Andronovo taught the locals how to make wine [PIE*win-o-] besides chariots?

I'm not sure what you want to say here. Did Indian word for wine spread with Indo-Europeans from Indus Valley?

 

[Taranis]

I'm not sure what you want to say here. Did Indian word for win spread with Indo-Europeans from Indus Valley?

The word for 'wine' clearly originated in the Mediterranean:

In all Northern European language families (Celtic, Germanic, Uralic, Slavic) the word is obviously borrowed from Latin vīnum. I'm find it ironic that Silesian's map is cut off in the Middle East because there's a Semitic cognate: Hebrew "jajin", which exhibits the Canaanite sound mutation of initial *w- to *j-.

 

[Silesian]

I'm not sure what you want to say here. Did Indian word for win spread with Indo-Europeans from Indus Valley?

The oldest production of grapes into wine is from the region Goga shows his theory of PIE. How did Proto Indo Europeans acquire the word for wine, from the growth of grapes on the steppe? From the growth of grapes in India?

 

[Silesian]

The word for 'wine' clearly originated in the Mediterranean:

What about Phillistines?

The Philistines were also renowned for both their production and consumption of alcoholic beverages. Numerous finds have exposed a well-managed spirits industry, from breweries and wineries to retail outlets that advertised beer, wine, and strong drink. Among the most numerous artifacts unearthed from Philistine ruins are beer mugs and wine craters (large drinking bowls). The story of Samson's wedding feast alludes to the Philistine practice of engaging in week-long drinking parties, as the Hebrew word mishkeh, translated as "strong drink" in Judges 14:10, indicates a "drinking feast."^[21]

What about Proto-Kartvelian and grapes/wine? What about Proto-Kartvelian connection with Proto-Indo-European? What about BMAC, languages like Munda,Brahui[Dravidian] can we rule out this region for the growth of grapes and introduction of wine in this region and the Proto-Indo-European language?

 

[kamani]

The Mediteranean also has the word krasi meaning: wine in Greek, wine-grapes in Albanian.

 

[MOESAN]

Does any of the information from wiki prove or disprove your theories of Kurgan R1a Z 93/94 .invasion from steppe region. The stepp warriors who became farmers, did not leave many remains of their horses and chariots as of today; had gods representing oceans ?
Besides horses and chariots, have there been any weapons found in archeological sites, confirming your ideas; like arrowheads, spears, axes for example?


Have there been any examples of barbaric conquest, by the Indo-Aryans from Andronovo, for example the Romans invaded Britain. Archeological finds.


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-25744163

it is not in the center of the topic but I see on this Wiki map a spot 'Andronovo' in the Western part of the map: but the true Andronovo spot is between the Ob and Ienissei rivers, in the Novosibirsk region, very far in North and East!!! by the way I recall someones think Andronovo culture was turkic and not I-Ean : I don't agree for linguistic reasons (more I-E Finno-Ugric contacts than I-E turkic ones, if I don't mistake)

 

[Silesian]

The Mediteranean also has the word krasi meaning: wine in Greek, wine-grapes in Albanian.

What are the oldest known areas of Greek viniculture ? Is there a connection with the following I.E.groups Latin, Latin,Phrygian, Albanian, Hittite, Luwian,Armenian and PIE for grapes and wine?

it is not in the center of the topic but I see on this Wiki map a spot 'Andronovo' in the Western part of the map: but the true Andronovo spot is between the Ob and Ienissei rivers, in the Novosibirsk region, very far in North and East!!! by the way I recall someones think Andronovo culture was turkic and not I-Ean : I don't agree for linguistic reasons (more I-E Finno-Ugric contacts than I-E turkic ones, if I don't mistake)

Did PIE R1a-z93/94 produce and drink wine or mead in the Ob and Ienissei rivers, ; Novosibirsk region? Did the Proto-Uralic neighbors have a word for wine, or mead. Are there PIE words for wine and mead that were transferred from Uralic from R1a z93/94 ?