Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

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Why, Garrick? Ike is a smart person. He is gone, and left you alone. But you are not specialized about Illyrians.
You are specialized in offending albanians.
Why do not continue the conversation?
 
Did you see Girgonzola? This guys at their schools learn that albanians are descendent of illyrians, their leaders say the same thing.

I do not know where this people have learn all this things that express here.
 
Why, Garrick? Ike is a smart person. He is gone, and left you alone. But you are not specialized about Illyrians.
You are specialized in offending albanians.
Why do not continue the conversation?

You didn't understand. I think it is better that thread about Bosnians as descendants of Illyrians someone opens from Bosnia. I have a lot of material about it, if you want I can open, but again, someone from Bosnia should opens it.

Other what you say, not to comment.
 
One interesting text from Indonesia, it is not scientific, but esoteric:

http://www.lakubecik.org/phocadownload/trace of the real egypt 97-2003 s.pdf

The Illyrians worship Sun God and Moon Goddess, and place snake as a respected creature in their belief. There are many ethnological data about the belief in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The name of llyrian derived from word “Illur” that means “Snake”. Even in the myths from Illyrian ancestors depicted in the form of snake. In mythological and belief system from Illyrians, snake is believed to be the symbol of the respected animal, which instrumental in guarding human. For them snake is considered as a keeper, also in the household. This belief is kept for hundreds of years in Bosnia up until now.

Do you realy belive this?????
Come on.
 
You don`t like Prince of the Vasoyevich? No problem, we have YOUR KING

I invite you to read this :

1913
Leo Freundlich:
Albania's Golgotha:
Indictment of the Exterminators of the Albanian People



On 18 October 1912, King Peter of Serbia issued a declaration 'To the Serbian People', proclaiming:

"The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too.
By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future.
In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality."

[Taken from Albaniens Golgotha: Anklageakten gegen die Vernichter des Albanervolkes. Gesammelt und herausgegeben von Leo Freundlich (Vienna 1913). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie, Gathering Clouds: the Roots of Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia, Dukagjini Balkan Books (Peja 2002), p.11-46.]


That is a part of text, what`s happened after it`s another story. I am interesed about this:

"upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now".

For the sake of GOD is YOUR KING.
Tell something. Even he was wrong?
 
So Prince of the Vasoyevich says:

"The Albanian tribes or Skyptars are the descendents of Illir".
Their language has also remained to the present day just as it was thirty-three centuries ago.
AND
"The Slavic tribes inhabiting these high reaches are Ostrogoth Slavs who took over the country under King Sverlade and his son Ostrovoy or Ostroyl at the time of the Roman emperors Anastasius and Justin in 495".

And YOUR KING, King Peter of Serbia says:

"upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now".

Whom should we believe Garrick and Ike, or Prince of the Vasoyevich and King Peter of Serbia ?
 
I can tell you a lot of arguments but you are not specialized about Illyrians.
 
Are you convinced now that albanians are descendants of Illyrians?
This thing in the game of chess called Checkmate.
Good night and sweet dreams.
 
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Well, apparently In Serbian schools children learn that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.
About Bosnian and our noble neighbors of FYROM i am not interesed.

I am an American and I have always tried to be fair in my analysis over the Albanians and their origin. So what do you say about me? That I have an agenda for Serbia?

The truth is; the Illyrian hypothesis may be logical, but I have found it obviously has holes and logical inconsistencies in it. Rendering it less likely to be possible, upon further research, at least to me.


The Greeks reported that the Illyrian people to be related to pre-Italic, pre-Ligurian and pre-Celtic peoples; making their language group, in theory, to be more likely of a Centum kind of language; than a Satem. And it has been proven that the only Satem languages in the Balkans that is now extinct are Thracian and Dacian.


I previously thought Albanians may have been Illyrians. But I am often wondering if they are actually a Thracian tribe, or another undocumented tribe. I previously had doubts that Albanians were Thracians, but they seem to share genetics with Bulgarian and Greek people the most. The Bulgarian/Anatolian/Black Sea area is the area I have hypothesized these proto-Albanian people to come from, and from what I know from ancient Greek maps, one of the areas here was known as Thrace.

All I know is that their genentics prove that they originated from the East, most likely near the Black Sea. (E-V13 and J2b prove this)

The hypothesized Illyrian and Slavic genetics in their culture, are a lot more rarer. (I2a and R1a) in the Albaian people are more rare than in other Balkanic populations. (Besides the Greeks) and an R1b subclade is actually more significant in the population.

So if Albanians are Illyrians, and so are also Croats, Bosnians and Slovenes (mixed with Slavic). This may suggest that Albanians have never been Illyrian, or have been taken over by a foreign people who took the Illyrian (Albanian) language and culture.

Remember, the two most genetically similar cultures to the Albanians in the Balkans are the Greeks and Bulgarians; And this seems to be the area of ancient Thrace.

Albanian, just like Thracian, is a Satem language. Making it more likely (at-this-moment) that Albanians may be more related to Thracians than Illyrians, since the Illyrian language has a lack of data. Linguistics and genetics; as well as ancient Greek sources; cast doubt on the popular theory that Albanians are Illyrians. Because E1B1B (E-V13) and J2 (J2b subclade) originated in the East, and are foreign to the Balkans.

Illyrian is also hypothesized to be a Centum language, rather than a Satem language like Thracian and Greek. Albanian is a Satem language, and it is also agglutinative. Making it likely that it is a very old and ancient language. The only other agglutinative languages in Indo-European are Armenian and Persian.
 
I don't know who the hell are you. But it's shame for this forum and the moderator of this forum that permit you to make posts like this :
"the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)".
Go away.
 
I don't know who the hell are you. But it's shame for this forum and the moderator of this forum that permit you to make posts like this :
"the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)".
Go away.

Here we go again; acting with emotions to my theory instead of trying to discredit as an impossibility.

I never said I was for or against Albanians; I'm only being fair. And I believe that the Illyrian origin theory is becoming more and more obsolete, as I take in many perspectives. I believe you to be someone with an agenda, and is only trying to reassure their fantasies; instead of coming up with truth.

I am not "going away". The chances of that happening, are like a cat giving birth to puppies. I haven't done anything wrong; and am following the rules. You're either someone who is fantasy-oriented or too lazy to consider perspectives; but one thing I know is that you're probably afraid of finding out the truth.
 
I don't know who the hell are you. But it's shame for this forum and the moderator of this forum that permit you to make posts like this :
"the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)".
Go away.

Stop your whining, you never answer the facts and questions that people present to you................instead you defer and deflect these questions by asking dumb questions

Less that 10% of all illyrian tribes caome from albania, the other 90% are all of of the drin river in Montenegro...........what do you think would be the outcome of who can claim illyrian
 
- Serbians are 70% thracians ( moesians ) from the Triballi tribe, which is why by heraldry sites they still claim the ancient Boar of the Triballi people.........they became slavs via linguistic changes. there is no migrational path of the serbs.

Why don`t you say the source of this ? Why don`t you publish all the document? And what this document said about albanians? And why scholars don`t take in consideration this document?

You are speaking about heraldic? Ridiculous. I am quoting a Princ and a King.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhah.

Go Sile go, i know your tactic, mordi e fuggi.
 
Stop your whining, you never answer the facts and questions that people present to you................instead you defer and deflect these questions by asking dumb questions

Less that 10% of all illyrian tribes caome from albania, the other 90% are all of of the drin river in Montenegro...........what do you think would be the outcome of who can claim illyrian

There is a problem here, the illyrians are believed to have gone south when the slavs attacked, so not a valid argument.
 
All I know is that their genentics prove that they originated from the East, most likely near the Black Sea. (E-V13 and J2b prove this)

Albanian, just like Thracian, is a Satem language. Making it more likely (at-this-moment) that Albanians may be more related to Thracians than Illyrians, since the Illyrian language has a lack of data. Linguistics and genetics; as well as ancient Greek sources; cast doubt on the popular theory that Albanians are Illyrians. Because E1B1B (E-V13) and J2 (J2b subclade) originated in the East, and are foreign to the Balkans.

Illyrian is also hypothesized to be a Centum language, rather than a Satem language like Thracian and Greek. Albanian is a Satem language, and it is also agglutinative. Making it likely that it is a very old and ancient language. The only other agglutinative languages in Indo-European are Armenian and Persian.

Why did you choose to ignore my replies to you, or did you not like them?
Ok, i know i've said that i don't want to waste anymore time with you but you are just unbelievable and you get to your own conclusions:

1.Illyrian is not yet classified either as centum or satem.
2.Albanian is not an aggluntinative language.
3.EV-13 did not originate in the east, keep low your suppositions.Some scholars say it originated in the balkans.
4.E1B1B AND J2B were already in the balkans when the illyrian ethnos was formed (they were there at least since the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic)


I'm going to post something about the albanian haplogroups. I mentined something before about the ''rise of the illyrican soldiery". Well according to different sources E and J in britain, it's believed to be from Illyrian and Thracian soldiers in the Roman army. The place where this E was found was also the same place where thracian and illyrian soldiers were stationed. Here:

Haplogroup E3b1a2 (Ev-13) as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

The majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic.
 
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Why did you choose to ignore my replies to you, or did you not like them?
Ok, i know i've said that i don't want to waste anymore time with you but you are just unbelievable and you get to your own conclusions:

1.Illyrian is not yet classified either as centum or satem.
2.Albanian is not an aggluntinative language.
3.EV-13 did not originate in the east, keep low your suppositions.Some scholars say it originated in the balkans.
4.E1B1B AND J2B were already in the balkans when the illyrian ethnos was formed (they were there at least since the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic)


I'm going to post something about the albanian haplogroups. I mentined something before about the ''rise of the illyrican soldiery". Well according to different sources E and J in britain, it's believed to be from Illyrian and Thracian soldiers in the Roman army. The place where this E was found was also the same place where thracian and illyrian soldiers were stationed. Here:

Haplogroup E3b1a2 (Ev-13) as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm


Gorgonzola i am going to show other documents about what was the opinion of South Slavic leadership about the origin of the albanian.
It`s very interesting :

In 1947 a Yugoslav delegation of high level in the composition of which were, Kardelj
, S. Simic foreign affairs minister and Velko Popoviq Yugoslav ambassador in Moscow, met with Stalin.
This is the recorded conversations between them:
STALIN - How did you work with Albanians? Enver Hoxha's like complaining about your political advisors in their army, as they weaken the discipline, right?

E. Kardelj - This is a new thing for us. They have not told us anything about it.

STALIN - What is the origin of the Albanians?

E. Kardelj - They are descendants of the Illyrians.

Stalin - I remember Tito told me that they are like the Basques.

E. Kardelj - This is true.

S. Simic - There is evidence to say that Albanians are the oldest people in the Balkan Peninsula. Some of their words prove that the Albanian language is older than Greek. The Greek word "Aphrodite" is borrowed from Albanian. Aphrodite Greek language has no meaning.

Stalin - This nation has lagged in development.

Popovic - Albanians are very brave and loyal.

Stalin - Such has been to us Chuvash
. Russian czars take them on personal guard.

E. Kardelj – To us, the territory of Kosovo and Metohija today live more Albanians than Serbs. We think that later, when we decide closer ties with Albania, these territories to give it.

Stalin - How are happening Albanians in these territories?

E. Kardelj - Are located in this province at the time of the Turks. As a part of the population is assimilated.

Stalin - How is it possible that people with a lower level of development could achieve such a thing? Why is that? ...

(Published in the Belgrade daily "Borba" on 12-13 August 1989, and in the book "Russia and Kosovo" Albanian Ambassador Shaqir Vukaj, p 93).




Milovan Djilas (1911-1995) was a writer and leading Yugoslav politician from Montenegro. He was a major figure of Yugoslav communism after the Second World War, but later, by 1954, became a prominent critic of Tito and spent many years in prison. In January 1948, Djilas was sent to Moscow to negotiate with Stalin, with whom Yugoslavia was still allied. Their meetings and discussions, revealed by Djilas in his book "Conversations with Stalin" .


At one point he expressed interest in Albania. “What is really going on over there? What kind of people are they?”
I explained: “In Albania pretty much the same thing is happening as in Yugoslavia. The Albanians are the most ancient Balkan people—older than the Slavs, and even the ancient Greeks.”
“But how did their settlements get Slavic names?” Stalin asked. “Haven’t they some connection with the Slavs?”
I explained this too. “The Slavs inhabited the valleys in earlier times—hence the Slavic place names—and then in Turkish times the Albanians pushed them out.”
Stalin winked roguishly. “I had hoped that the Albanians were at least a little Slavic.”


[extracts from Milovan Djilas. Conversations with Stalin. Translated from the Serbo-Croatian by Michael B. Petrovich (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, 1962). pp. 78-79, 133-138, 143-147.]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edvard_Kardelj

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milovan_Đilas
 
Are all Yugoslav sources:


(Published in the Belgrade daily "Borba" on 12-13 August 1989,)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borba_(newspaper)


[extracts from Milovan Djilas. Conversations with Stalin. Translated from the Serbo-Croatian by Michael B. Petrovich (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, 1962). pp. 78-79, 133-138, 143-147.]



But this did not stop them, to make plans and implement them in order to exterminate the Albanians.
 
After all these posts i do not understand how some Serb members allege that Albanians are from the Caucasus.
It is non sense.




Those who arrived in the Balkans from the Caucasus are Slavs, this is a historical fact.

About the famous Albania in Caucasus i have an interesting material.
 
I hate the communist and Enver Hoxha but read this :

Enver Hoxha
Memoirs from my Meetings with Stalin


F I R S T M E E T I N G

July 1947

"What is the origin and language of your people?" he asked me, among other things, "Are your people akin to the Basques?" And he continued, "I do not believe that the Albanian people came from the interior of Asia, nor are they of Turkish origin, because the Albanians are of a more ancient stock than the Turks. Perhaps, your people have common roots with those Etruscans who remained in your mountains, because the rest went to Italy, some were assimilated by the Romans and some crossed over to the Iberian Peninsula."

I replied to Comrade Stalin that the origin of our people was very ancient, that their language was Indo-European. "There are many theories on this question," I continued, "but the truth is that our origin is Illyrian. We are a people of Illyrian descent. There is also a theory which defends the thesis that the Albanian people are the most ancient people of the Balkans and that the Pelasgians were the ancient pre-Homeric forefathers of the Albanians."
I went on to explain that the Pelasgian theory was upheld for a time by many scholars, especially German scholars. "There is also an Albanian scholar" I told him, "who is known as an expert on Homer, who has reached the same conclusion, basing himself on some words used in the Iliad and the Odyssey, and which are in use today among the Albanian people, as for example, the word 'gur' (stone) which means 'kamenj' in Russian. Homer uses this word as a prefix to the Greek word, saying 'guri-petra'. Thus, on the basis of a few such words, bearing in mind the Oracle of Dodona, and some documents or etymologies of words, which have undergone changes, according to many philological interpretations, the scientists conclude that our ancient forefathers were the Pelasgians, who lived on the Balkan Peninsula before the Greeks.
"However, I have not heard that the Albanias are of the same origin as the Basques," I said to Comrade Stalin. "Such a theory may well exist, like the theory you mentioned, that some of the Estruscans remained in Albania, while the rest branched off to settle in Italy, with some of them crossing over to the Iberian Peninsula, to Spain. It is possible that this theory, too, may have its supporters, but I have no knowledge of it."
"In the Caucasus we have a place called Albania," Stalin told me on one occasion. "Could it have any connection with Albania?"
"I don't know," i said, but it is a fact that during the centuries, many Albanians, forced by the savage Ottoman occupation, the wars and ferocious persecution of the Ottoman Sultans and Padishahs, were obliged to leave the land of their birth and settle in foreign lands where they have formed whole villages. This is what happened with thousands of Albanians who settled in Southern Italy back in the 15th century, after the death of our National Hero, Scanderbeg, and now there are whole areas inhabited by the Arbereshi of Italy, who still retain their language and the old customs of the Homeland of their forefathers al
though they have been living in a foreign land for 4-5 centuries. Likewise," I told Comrade Stalin, "many Albanians settled in Greece, where entire regions are inhabited by the Arbereshi of Greece, others settled in Turkey, Rumania, Bulgaria, America and elsewhere... However, as to the place in your country called 'Albania'," I said, "I know nothing concrete."
Then Stalin asked mea bout a number of words of our language. He wanted to know the names of some work tools, household utensils, etc. I told him the Albanian words, and after listening to them carefully he repeated them, made comparisons between the Albanian name for the tool and its equivalent in the language of the Albanians of the Caucasus. Now and then he turned to Molotov and Mikovan and sought their opinion. It turned out that the roots of the words compared had no similarity.
At this moment, Stalin pressed a button, and after a few seconds the general who was Stalin's aide-de-camp, a tall, very attentive man, who behaved towards us with great kindness and sympathy, came in.
"Comrade Enver Hoxha and I are trying to solve a problem, but we cannot," said Stalin, smiling at the general. "Please get in touch with professor (and he mentioned an outstanding Soviet linguist and historian. whose name has escaped my memory) and ask him on my behalf whether there is any connection between the Albanias of the Caucasus and those of Albania."
When the general left, Stalin picked up an orange, and said:
"In Russian this iscalled 'apyelsin'. What is it in Albanian?"
"Portokall," I replied.
Again he made the comparison, pronouncing the words of the two languages and shrugged his shoulders. Hardly ten minutes had passed when the general came in again.
"I have the professor's answer,". he announced. -"He says there is no evidence at all of any connection between the Albanians of the Caucasus and those of Albania. However, he added that in the Ukraine, in the region of Odessa, there were several villages (about 7) inhabited by Albanians. The professor has precise information about this."
For my part, I instructed our ambassador in Moscow, there and then, to see to it that some of our students, who were studying history in the Soviet Union should do, their practice in these villages and study how and when these Albanians had settled in Odessa, whether they still preserved the language and customs of their forefathers, etc.



https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/meet1.htm


Maybe some russian friend here in the forum can find the originals in russian language to verify this document.
This are no more secret.
 
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