Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[King Bardhyl]

And about the origin of South Slavs read this material of a Serbian author:

......imena "Srbin", serv, pretvorio su iranskome u charv, što je skupa sa sufiksom at dalo Choroatos i Hrvat. Bjelodano je jasno da su Srbi i Hrvati imali sličnu povezanost povijesti od najstarijih vremenatolomej, koji je pisao u drugom stoljeću naše ere, također spominje Serboi među sarmatskim plemenima sjeverno od Kavkaza. Većina naučnika vjeruje da su i Srbi i Hrvati bili slavenska plemena s iranoskom vladajućcom kastom, ili da su prvobitno bili iranska plemena koja su stekla slavenske podanike. Negdje na početku sedmog stoljeća oba su plemena onsovala svoju kraljevinu u Srednjoj Evropi, Bijelu Hrvatsku koja je obuhvatala dio današnje južne Poljske, i Bijelu Srbiju, u današnjoj Českoj. Odatle su se i jedni i drugi doselili na zapad Balkana.


Now i will try with Google Translate maybe some serbian member can help with fixing the translation:

names ...... "Serb", serv, turned to the Iranian Charvi, which together with the suffix given at Choroatos and Croatia. Manifestly clear that the Serbs and the Croats had a similar relationship history from the earliest times: Ptolemy, who wrote in the second century BC, also mentioned Serboi among Sarmatian tribes north of the Caucasus. Most scientists believe that the Serbs and Croats were Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling caste, or that were originally Iranian tribes who acquired Slavic subjects. Somewhere at the beginning of the seventh century, both tribes onsovala his kingdom in Central Europe, White Croatia which included part of present-day southern Polish, and White Serbia, in what is now the Czech Republic. From there they both are moved to the West Balkans.

 

[King Bardhyl]

Ike, Garrick pls help me with the correct translation of this material. Thank you.

 

[King Bardhyl]

As you see Gorgonzola the material for our northern neighbors is more complete and more accurate.
They know this reality, and therefore refused to discuss last night with me.
Ok, no problem but why offend the albanians. They benefit from some circumstances.

 

[King Bardhyl]

There is also a document in which Slobodan Milošević states that Albanian people are descendats of Illyrians. I am going to find and publish this document.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milošević

 

[Sile]

There is a problem here, the illyrians are believed to have gone south when the slavs attacked, so not a valid argument.

so, the slavs entered the balkans in 600AD and forced the illyrians south.................doesn't it prove that albanians are not illyrians?

 

[King Bardhyl]

so, the slavs entered the balkans in 600AD and forced the illyrians south.................doesn't it prove that albanians are not illyrians?

It is not scientifically correct what you are saying. Where did you read this?

 

[Sile]

Go Sile go, i know your tactic, mordi e fuggi.

???

I had to look up your unknown words

you mean .........petar e scampar ............hit and run

 

[King Bardhyl]

And about the origin of South Slavs read this material of a Serbian author:

......imena "Srbin", serv, pretvorio su iranskome u charv, što je skupa sa sufiksom at dalo Choroatos i Hrvat. Bjelodano je jasno da su Srbi i Hrvati imali sličnu povezanost povijesti od najstarijih vremenatolomej, koji je pisao u drugom stoljeću naše ere, također spominje Serboi među sarmatskim plemenima sjeverno od Kavkaza. Većina naučnika vjeruje da su i Srbi i Hrvati bili slavenska plemena s iranoskom vladajućcom kastom, ili da su prvobitno bili iranska plemena koja su stekla slavenske podanike. Negdje na početku sedmog stoljeća oba su plemena onsovala svoju kraljevinu u Srednjoj Evropi, Bijelu Hrvatsku koja je obuhvatala dio današnje južne Poljske, i Bijelu Srbiju, u današnjoj Českoj. Odatle su se i jedni i drugi doselili na zapad Balkana.


Now i will try with Google Translate maybe some serbian member can help with fixing the translation:

names ...... "Serb", serv, turned to the Iranian Charvi, which together with the suffix given at Choroatos and Croatia. Manifestly clear that the Serbs and the Croats had a similar relationship history from the earliest times: Ptolemy, who wrote in the second century BC, also mentioned Serboi among Sarmatian tribes north of the Caucasus. Most scientists believe that the Serbs and Croats were Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling caste, or that were originally Iranian tribes who acquired Slavic subjects. Somewhere at the beginning of the seventh century, both tribes onsovala his kingdom in Central Europe, White Croatia which included part of present-day southern Polish, and White Serbia, in what is now the Czech Republic. From there they both are moved to the West Balkans.

This is how slavs arrived in South Balcan for the first time:

"..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581

"…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their
own. ... And even to this day [584 AD], they still encamp and dwell
there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety
and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn..."

Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that
in the year 587—8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were
usually allied)

"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were
scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of
the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the
Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the
country... "

[Cyril Mango, BYZANTIUM: THE EMPIRE OF NEW ROME]

 

[Gorgonzola]

Sile you didn't understand what i meant when i said "have gone south".

 

[mihaitzateo]

I am an American and I have always tried to be fair in my analysis over the Albanians and their origin. So what do you say about me? That I have an agenda for Serbia?

The truth is; the Illyrian hypothesis may be logical, but I have found it obviously has holes and logical inconsistencies in it. Rendering it less likely to be possible, upon further research, at least to me.


The Greeks reported that the Illyrian people to be related to pre-Italic, pre-Ligurian and pre-Celtic peoples; making their language group, in theory, to be more likely of a Centum kind of language; than a Satem. And it has been proven that the only Satem languages in the Balkans that is now extinct are Thracian and Dacian.


I previously thought Albanians may have been Illyrians. But I am often wondering if they are actually a Thracian tribe, or another undocumented tribe. I previously had doubts that Albanians were Thracians, but they seem to share genetics with Bulgarian and Greek people the most. The Bulgarian/Anatolian/Black Sea area is the area I have hypothesized these proto-Albanian people to come from, and from what I know from ancient Greek maps, one of the areas here was known as Thrace.

All I know is that their genentics prove that they originated from the East, most likely near the Black Sea. (E-V13 and J2b prove this)

The hypothesized Illyrian and Slavic genetics in their culture, are a lot more rarer. (I2a and R1a) in the Albaian people are more rare than in other Balkanic populations. (Besides the Greeks) and an R1b subclade is actually more significant in the population.

So if Albanians are Illyrians, and so are also Croats, Bosnians and Slovenes (mixed with Slavic). This may suggest that Albanians have never been Illyrian, or have been taken over by a foreign people who took the Illyrian (Albanian) language and culture.

Remember, the two most genetically similar cultures to the Albanians in the Balkans are the Greeks and Bulgarians; And this seems to be the area of ancient Thrace.

Albanian, just like Thracian, is a Satem language. Making it more likely (at-this-moment) that Albanians may be more related to Thracians than Illyrians, since the Illyrian language has a lack of data. Linguistics and genetics; as well as ancient Greek sources; cast doubt on the popular theory that Albanians are Illyrians. Because E1B1B (E-V13) and J2 (J2b subclade) originated in the East, and are foreign to the Balkans.

Illyrian is also hypothesized to be a Centum language, rather than a Satem language like Thracian and Greek. Albanian is a Satem language, and it is also agglutinative. Making it likely that it is a very old and ancient language. The only other agglutinative languages in Indo-European are Armenian and Persian.

And I would add Armenian and Persian are also Satem languages and R1B-Ht35 is quite spread in Albania,besides Armenia and some areas in Iran.
Well according to some great Romanian scientist Dacians and Thracians were speaking an Iranic language.
He finds in Romanian words of Iranic origin in the folk language.
I do not agree to this Romanian scientist theory,but the words are there.

 

[Yetos]

Why did you choose to ignore my replies to you, or did you not like them?
Ok, i know i've said that i don't want to waste anymore time with you but you are just unbelievable and you get to your own conclusions:

1.Illyrian is not yet classified either as centum or satem.
2.Albanian is not an aggluntinative language.
3.EV-13 did not originate in the east, keep low your suppositions.Some scholars say it originated in the balkans.
4.E1B1B AND J2B were already in the balkans when the illyrian ethnos was formed (they were there at least since the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic)


I'm going to post something about the albanian haplogroups. I mentined something before about the ''rise of the illyrican soldiery". Well according to different sources E and J in britain, it's believed to be from Illyrian and Thracian soldiers in the Roman army. The place where this E was found was also the same place where thracian and illyrian soldiers were stationed. Here:

Haplogroup E3b1a2 (Ev-13) as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

The majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic.

do you know or have a quite enough Illyrian vocabulary?

 

[Yetos]

@ Bardylic

the 5 Slavic tribes who enter Greece, are known, and writen,

we even know the places were try to settle,

strangely, after each invasion the Greek part in East roman empire grew stronger, while latin drop weaker, why?

 

[King Bardhyl]

@ Bardylic

the 5 Slavic tribes who enter Greece, are known, and writen,

we even know the places were try to settle,

strangely, after each invasion the Greek part in East roman empire grew stronger, while latin drop weaker, why?

Very interesting . Open a discussion about Greece and let speak there , you know i like to speak about Greece .
And don't forget Bardhyl without ic.

 

[Gorgonzola]

@K. Bardhyl, what you posted here is very interesting material, especially the talk with Enver Hoxha. The Russian and Yugoslav leaders had alot more knowledge about this topic, so probabaly its true.

 

[mihaitzateo]

I think that is quite clear that most of the Albanian language is related to some Iranic languages,Satem languages and not to Illyrian language.
As for the presence of Latin borrowings,that simply shows that:
-either Albanian people were there,when Roman conquest happened - now in the area were lots of Thracian tribes,during that time.Sure,there are also Illyrians that are mentioned,living between or with Thracians,but it seems that Illyrians were conquered by Thracians.
Thracians are said to be warrior-people,now Albanians are well known for being good warriors and not so much practicing agriculture or raising sheep.
Thracian did not meant a single ethnicity,but could have been a term for proto-Satem speakers,which were including Albanian speakers,Balto-Slavic speakers and other Satem languages speakers.Thracians are said to have been the most numerous after Indians,now,Slavs/Balto-Slavs were not that many in those times,but if you take Slavs/Balto Slavs,Iranic speakers,Armenian speakers,Albanian speakers,than you have a huge area that was covered by Thracians.We can safely suppose that in those times Balto-Slavic and Slavic were almost same language,being much closer to Albanian and to Iranian,than today.I think Balto-Slavic suffered influences from Finnic speakers,South Slavic,from East Germanic Speakers,other Slavs,from other Germanic speakers,while Armenian and Iranian suffered heavy influences from Arabic and Turkic speakers.Same about the genetics of these people.
-either that the people that were there when Roman empire conquered the area got lots of words from Latin ; later Albanian speakers came conquer them,but also borrowed lots of words from the natives.

Anyway,talking about continuity in Balkans,considering how many populations passed or even settled over here is plain weird.

 

[King Bardhyl]

@ mihaitzateo

I think that is quite clear that most of the Albanian language is related to some Iranic languages,Satem languages and not to Illyrian language.
As for the presence of Latin borrowings,that simply shows that:
-either Albanian people were there,when Roman conquest happened - now in the area were lots of Thracian tribes,during that time.Sure,there are also Illyrians that are mentioned,living between or with Thracians,but it seems that Illyrians were conquered by Thracians.
Thracians are said to be warrior-people,now Albanians are well known for being good warriors and not so much practicing agriculture or raising sheep.
Thracian did not meant a single ethnicity,but could have been a term for proto-Satem speakers,which were including Albanian speakers,Balto-Slavic speakers and other Satem languages speakers.Thracians are said to have been the most numerous after Indians,now,Slavs/Balto-Slavs were not that many in those times,but if you take Slavs/Balto Slavs,Iranic speakers,Armenian speakers,Albanian speakers,than you have a huge area that was covered by Thracians.We can safely suppose that in those times Balto-Slavic and Slavic were almost same language,being much closer to Albanian and to Iranian,than today.I think Balto-Slavic suffered influences from Finnic speakers,South Slavic,from East Germanic Speakers,other Slavs,from other Germanic speakers,while Armenian and Iranian suffered heavy influences from Arabic and Turkic speakers.Same about the genetics of these people.
-either that the people that were there when Roman empire conquered the area got lots of words from Latin ; later Albanian speakers came conquer them,but also borrowed lots of words from the natives.

Anyway,talking about continuity in Balkans,considering how many populations passed or even settled over here is plain weird.

Trendafil me gjethe shume hidhu ti te hidhem une.
Trendafil me gjethe pak ti pushimin e ke hak.

mihaitzateo you have to take in consideration this, i think is very important and show us a lot of things.

 

[Gorgonzola]

@mihaitzateo we are talking about language continuity here, which is possible if you see most of the posts about this thread.
And don't forget albanian is not part of indo-iranian languages, but a special branch of the indo-europeans.
But even genetic continuty is held plausable anyways.

 

[Sile]

I think that is quite clear that most of the Albanian language is related to some Iranic languages,Satem languages and not to Illyrian language.

agree, that's what all scholars are saying ..........and with an early migrational path to modern north moldovia

 

[Gorgonzola]

Looks like the scholars i've read have a totally different opinion from your "scholars", Sile.

 

[Stears555]

VLACHS (Romanians) WERE THE LATEST NOMADIC ETHNIC GROUP IN EUROPE. Vlachs were known as late - nomadic people in medieval chronicles. The first romanian vlach churches were built only around the turn of the 13th and 14th century. No known archiutecture existed before that period. The romanian literacy and chronicles appeared only in the 15th century.USE Google books! (The word's largest digitalized library, the largest collection of printed books) See the google book results (search the british american candian authors about medieval romanians Vlachs):


Carleton Stevens Coon: The races of Europe, Page 614
" Vlach colonists are nomads living in black tents like those of ... A greater variation is found in the cephalic index; on the plains of Moldavia and Wallachia, and in the Dobruja"


Robert William Seton-Watson: A history of the Roumanians: from Roman times to the completion of unity, page: 12
"The Roumanians undoubtedly preserved their nomadic habits to a very late date, as is proved by the existence of Vlach colonies in Moravia (the so-called "Little Wallachia" — long since completely Slavised)"


Mandell Creighton, Justin Winsor, Samuel Rawson Gardiner: The English Historical Review page:- 615.
"He shows that the Vlachs of the Balkan peninsula throughout the middle ages are nomads of the strictest type, ... that Vlachs began to move north of the Danube to Wallachia and Transylvania "


Joan E. Durrant, Anne B. Smith Global Pathways to Abolishing Physical Punishment: Realizing Children’s Rights ( PAGE 210)

"Between the 3rd century A.D. and the 14th century A.D., Dacia was invaded successively by nomadic peoples, including the ... Romanians "


Norman Berdichevsky: Nations, Language and Citizenship -page: 181.
"The “true Romanians” are held to be interlopers who were nomadic shepherds that migrated into Transylvania from the ... then transferred to “Wallachia,” the traditional core area of the Romanian state located east and south of Transylvania."


Other elements in the population of Greece are the Wallachians or Vlachs, the Turks, and the Jews, but they have never ... The Wallachians are a curious nomadic race


David Bruce Macdonald - 2002 Balkan Holocausts?: Serbian and Croatian Victim Centered ... page- 131

"These hinterland Romans evolved into highland herdsmen, who for centuries led a primitive nomadic life"


Lampe, John R, Jackson, Marvin R. Balkan Economic History, 1550 - 1950: From Imperial Borderlands to ... page - 612.
"Vlachs had first acquired their commercial connections in the course of moving their livestock seasonally back and forth between high and low ground. ... Alan J.B. Wace and M.S. Thompson, The Nomads of the Balkans (New York: Books for Libraries Press, 1971)"


Jane Perry Clark Carey, Andrew Galbraith Carey : The Web of Modern Greek Politics - page 73
"shepherds and nomadic herdsmen, wandering through the Balkans and the north of Greece. On their early migrations they gave the Vlach name to various districts, including the province of Wallachia in present-day Romania"


Chambers's Encyclopedia - Volume 14. page:- 339.
"The Vlachs are usually mentioned as following nomadic or semi-nomadic lives as shepherds etc. in wild mountain ... nth century was known as 'Great Wallachia' and seems to have contained a relatively dense and settled Vlach population."


Denys Hay: Europe in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries page: 220
"In the first half of the fourteenth century there also appeared there the two Romanian principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia. ... or whether the Hungarians are right in their thesis that these Vlachs were recently immigrated nomadic shepherds"


Frank Moore Colby, Talcott Williams, Herbert Treadwell Wade: The New International Encyclopaedia Voluma 20. Page: 219
"Owing to their nomadic and predatory dispositions these Vlachs, as they are called by the Greek writers, were a ... the autonomous Rumanian principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia, which grew rapidly towards south and east until the former"


Isaiah Bowman: The New World: Problems in Political Geography page - 282
"or Wallachians The Rumanians, or Wallachs (hence Wallachia), are of mixed race but of distinct speech, the Ruman, ... Home places of the nomadic Vlachs The Vlachs , Rumanian nomadism is seen in its purest form among the detached"


Norman Angell : Peace Theories And The Balkan War page: - 107.
"It had been founded by a conquering caste of non-Slavonic nomads from the trans-Danubian steppes, but these were completely ... This Bulgarian state included a large 'Vlach' element descended from those Latin-speaking provincials whom the Slavs had pushed ... had established itself in the mountains of Transylvania, and was just beginning to push down into the Wallachian and Moldavian plains"


Tibor Frank, Frank Hadler : Disputed territories and shared pasts: overlapping national histories in modern Europe, page: 251
"Reference to Romanians in their preunification (1859) history was linked to the regional designation of Wallachia (today Oltenia and Muntenia) to the south ... This designation relates to the nomadic existence of the Balkan Vlach population."


Paul Coles : The Ottoman Impact on Europe - page: 114
" nomadic pastoralism provided a new lease of life for the Rumanian-speaking Vlachs, migratory herdsmen whose native principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia had fallen under Ottoman dominion during the fifteenth century"


Wace, Alan J. B. and Maurice S. Thompson. .:
"The Nomads of the Balkans: An Account of Life and Custom Among the Vlachs of Northern Pindus."