Where do the white kablye of north africa come from

Here are some examples of what I was talking about: pictures of ancient are simply representations of categories for simple folk to understand. Most people were illiterate. Thus they needed thus:
ETb-Amphora.jpg


Greeks are depicted as black. Does that make them black???

a2.jpg

How about this one? Is one black and other white? Is this reality?

You are comparing apples with oranges. Ancient Egypt was not the same as ancient Greece. And Greek art could also be very realistic and accurate. Greek vessel portraying a Negroid face and a Caucasoid face:

tumblr_mageqxh7cP1r7yp6v.jpg
 
This legend of White North Africans is the biggest joke of the Universe. Ancient Romans depicted all North Africans as extremely swarthy. The modern ones are the same with additional massive Arab and Sub Sahara admixture. I would even say that North Africans overlal more with Caraibbean mulattos than with Europeans.
I see North Africans everyday and most of them look SSA influenced and the rest look like gulf Arabs (especially the Tunisians and the Egyptians).
The few like Zidane are a rarity.

 
Agreed

We had to discuss this a few times already. Egytpians were most likely just like Egyptians nowadays of course with some admixture nowadays both from Arabia and Sub Saharan Africa.

Ancient Egyptian language is part of the Afro_Asiatic family. Inside this family it's closest cousins are in this order 1. Semitic 2. Berber 3. Cushitic/Chadic

And therefore it is save to say that the seperation went this way. Afro Asiatic => Cushitic, Proto Semito-Egyptic-Berber
Semito-Egyptic-Berber=> Semito-Egyptic, Berber
Semito-Egyptic=> Semitic, Egyptic.

Egypt was in the middle between Semites, Berbers and Ethiopic people.

Therefore it is save to assume that they would have looked like a mix of mostly Semites and Berbers with strong Ethiopic characteristic.

The drawings are good indiciation how they looked like based on pigmentation however I wouldn't take the pigmenation for comparison as 100%. We need to see these depictions as a simple description in a extaggerated way of how these people differed. Libyan and Syro_Palestians as "light" in probably olive skinned with obvious Caucasian features. The Nubians simply as East African , Sub Saharan Blacks. And Egyptians as a brown people with Caucasoid facial features.
I honestly doubt that Libyans or Berbers in general would have looked light haired.

Overall the Libyan and Syro_Palestinian depiction are almost identical. Only the hair coloring on the Libyan is slightly odd and probably a individual observation of some "Egyptian artist".

What you are agreeing with is actually with what I have said. Except that you did not notice that it is not just one depiction of Libyans that stereotypes them as such, but many. Read the quotes I provided summarizing the observations of scholars who have taken a look at many of these paintings of Libyans in Egyptian art. They have noticed this regular portrayal of them with lighter features. Obviously this recurring stereotype must have a foundation on actual facts. No one seems to question the Egyptians' portrayals of sub-Saharan Africans, Near Easterners and themselves, yet for some odd reason some want to vehemently deny their depictions of Libyans. The only logical conclusion one can derive from it is that the Libyans must have had a larger proportion of people with these features, enough so that the Egyptians noticed it and branded them with the stereotype, much like what many modern people still do with many nationalities (ex: Germans are tall, blonde, blue eyed "Aryans"), even though a more objective look reveals that they are exaggerations.
 
I see North Africans everyday and most of them look SSA influenced and the rest look like gulf Arabs (especially the Tunisians and the Egyptians).
The few like Zidane are a rarity.


One has to consider the sub-Saharan slave trade in the area, in Egypt in particular going as far back as Pharaonic times. You can also point out similar things in the Middle East and other areas of North Africa during Islamic times. With the gradual expansion of this religion into sub-Saharan Africa increasingly more and more slaves and also free converted natives found their way into these areas. Anyone interested in the subject should read the comments about black Africa and its inhabitants (usually called "Zanj") by Arab and Berber historians and travelers from the Middle Ages, like Ibn Battuta and Ibn Khaldun. Warning: some of these comments sound extremely racist to our modern ears. They are only useful in the sense that they give us an idea of the gradually increasing contact between the Arabs and Berbers of Islamic times and the "pagan" Africans from below the Sahara as Islam made incursions into these lands.
 
Black slaves in North Africans are the Gnawa, of course some mixing with them and the Tuareg has influenced modern Maghrebi population but Maghreb was also colonized by Arab tribes of Banu Hilal and replaced the original Berbers in many parts of the Maghreb.
So, who knows how the original Berbers looked?maybe these Kabyles are the purest descendent of them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hilal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnawa
 
That is hardly the case. The physical characterizations in those old paintings are quite clear. There is no reason why the Egyptians should have been accurate in their depiction of black Africans and for some mysterious reason they would not apply the same parameters to themselves and Syro-Palestinians and Libyans. We can tell very well that each of these groups were generally stereotyped as follows in Egyptian art (from darkest to lightest):

1- Nubians/Africans from below Egypt: very dark skin, very curly hair, dark eyes, Negroid facial features

2- Egyptians: lighter skinned than sub-Saharan Africans, straight or wavy dark hair when not braided, dark eyes, Caucasoid facial features

3- Syro-Palestinians: lighter skinned than the Egyptians but often with a yellowish "tinge", straight or wavy dark hair, dark eyes, Caucasoid facial features

4- Libyans: the palest skinned types in Egyptian art, straight or wavy hair when not braided and usually lighter in color, often with light eyes too, Caucasoid facial features




The fact that Iberian Muslims fled to North Africa does not change the fact that lighter pigmented types already inhabited the area thousands of years before. Their presence among modern North Africans can't simply be attributed to a historical source like that of Muslim times. The presence of these types in North Africa predates historical record.

That image is an artistic rendering, based on a mural from the tomb of Seti I, not a real image.

There is not a single written evidence that ancient Egyptians viewed Lybians and Arabs as light skinned.
 
I see Moroccans on daily basis and more than a third of them look clearly SSA influenced like Dominicans or darker Puerto Ricans...
I agree.
I have been in Tunisia and among them there were a significant minority of pure black population who live in the cities, i dunno if they are recent immigrants of descendent of the slaves though.
 
I see North Africans everyday and most of them look SSA influenced and the rest look like gulf Arabs (especially the Tunisians and the Egyptians).
The few like Zidane are a rarity.


I have also seen allot of them. Moroccons looked either fully Caucasian or im some cases SSA admixed. Tunesians looked entirely Caucasian, some like Levantines and Iraqis and some like Yemenites. Well among the Egyptians I haven't seen any SSA admixed looking ones. Yet I know they exist.

Take in mind the guys in the image have a strong tan. The guys in the image look Caucasian similar to Yemenites. And as Angela said SSA admixture in North Africa exists since very ancient times and earlier. Not so strong as nowadays but still there.
 
North African average is around 20% SSA admixed autosomally and in places like southern Morocco the average is higher, so they are SSA influenced.
The guys in the photo above are the average Maghrebi you can see everywhere in Italy.

 
North Africans score 20% of SSA admixture, without outliers. Otherwise it's much higher than that.

There is one Mozabite Berber from Behar et al. who scores 60% of SSA admixture.
 
You are comparing apples with oranges. Ancient Egypt was not the same as ancient Greece. And Greek art could also be very realistic and accurate. Greek vessel portraying a Negroid face and a Caucasoid face:

tumblr_mageqxh7cP1r7yp6v.jpg

You did not understanding what I was saying. All I tried to show you is that the Greeks did not use color to determine a phenotype. The vase I showed you is a clear indication of that. For some strange reason the Greeks used black to portray Greek males. Of course they were not black but they are represented in black color. This explains the Egyptian depictions as not representing reality. I am beginning to think you are stubborn and you like to split hairs. Aristotle once stated that the Greeks were between the northern barbarians (who have white skin) and the Ethiopians (who have black skin). This clearly indicates that the ancient Greeks were either brown or light brown in complexion and this is likewise the same for the Semites and Berbers -- I will even go so far as to say the Romans as well! -- even the Iberians.
 
^This. It is just to make the differences more clear.

That is what I meant and was telling Drac but he continues to claim they were white blah blah blah. The Egyptians were very dark and they exaggerated to make a clear distinctions between the races they saw.
 
Here is the link:
See: The Meaning of Skin Color in Eighteenth Dynasty Egypt:
https://www.academia.edu/353602/The_..._Dynasty_Egypt
Description

One of the most obvious stylistic features of Athenian black-figure vase painting is the use of color to differentiate women from men. By comparing ancient art in Egypt and Greece, Tan Men/Pale Women uncovers the complex history behind the use of color to distinguish between genders, without focusing on race. Author Mary Ann Eaverly considers the significance of this overlooked aspect of ancient art as an indicator of underlying societal ideals about the role and status of women. Such a commonplace method of gender differentiation proved to be a complex and multivalent method for expressing ideas about the relationship between men and women, a method flexible enough to encompass differing worldviews of Pharaonic Egypt and Archaic Greece. Does the standard indoor/outdoor explanation—women are light because they stay indoors—hold true everywhere, or even, in fact, in Greece? How “natural” is color-based gender differentiation, and, more critically, what relationship does color-based gender differentiation have to views about women and the construction of gender identity in the ancient societies that use it?
The depiction of dark men and light women can, as in Egypt, symbolize reconcilable opposites and, as in Greece, seemingly irreconcilable opposites where women are regarded as a distinct species from men. Eaverly challenges traditional ideas about color and gender in ancient Greek painting, reveals an important strategy used by Egyptian artists to support pharaonic ideology and the role of women as complementary opposites to men, and demonstrates that rather than representing an actual difference, skin color marks a society’s ideological view of the varied roles of male and femal

- See more at: http://www.press.umich.edu/3080238#sthash.D1NS4JUd.dpufhttps://www.academia.edu/353602/The_..._Dynasty_Egypt


The way that people are portrayed in ancient art is not about making stereotypes for simple people, or at least not in the way that you mean if I understand you. Their art reflects their world view, the symbolic meaning of certain colors or forms, their aesthetic sense, or what they considered beautiful, their social and gender class structure, the value given to certain techniques etc.

So, for example, when looking at ancient art people have to be aware that certain conventions were followed whereby women were almost always portrayed as having lighter skin than men, and the wealthy were portrayed as lighter than field workers, for example. As I've pointed out before, ancient people weren't stupid. They could see that work in the fields made people get tan. Ergo, tan skin equals lower status...well, unless the man was a warrior, who would be expected to be hardened by the elements. Today, it's reversed. A tan indicates you're wealthy enough to get away from cold and grey skies in winter and go broil in the sun on a Caribbean Beach. Many things change, but the hunger of the human animal for status symbols never changes, even when the symbol is baked into his own skin.

See: http://www.press.umich.edu/3080238
Tan Men/Pale Women

Then, one also has to consider that certain finishes were very prized because of the difficulty in achieving them. For both the Greeks and the Etruscans, the so called "black figure" pottery was a stylistic and aesthetic choice partly based on the fact that this method was extremely difficult and sophisticated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-figure_pottery

Within that style, they observed certain conventions:
http://www.ancient.eu/Black_Figure_Pottery/
"Certain colour conventions were adopted such as white for female flesh, black for male. Other conventions were an almond shape for women’s eyes, circular for males, children are as adults but on a smaller scale, young men are beardless, old men have white hair and sometimes stoop, and older women are fuller-figured. Some gestures also became conventional such as the hand to the head to represent grief. Another striking feature of the style is the lack of literal naturalism. Figures are often depicted with a profile face and frontal body, and runners are in the impossible position of both left (or right) arms and legs moving forward. There was, however, some attempt at achieving perspective, frontal views of horses and chariots being especially popular."

So, it's a mistake to look at Greek vases and think that Greek men were black and Greek women were white. Likewise, Egyptian portrayals of other ancient people has to be cautiously interpreted, although it's clear that they wanted to indicate a difference between Sub-Saharan Africans, themselves, and people like the Libyans and Syrians. We also have written documents, as Drac pointed out, to the effect that there were some fairer "Libyans".

The bottom line is that I think you can get some clues about the phenotypes of ancient peoples from their art, but it has to be done cautiously and with an understanding of their art and culture, including all the issues discussed above.


Thank you for the information. You misunderstood: I did not mean to say that Greek men were black. What I was trying to show Drac was that colors were symbolic and did not reflect reality -- I mean exact reality. You basically agree with what I was saying (to be honest Angela, all this information is not new) and agree with what I have been saying, its just that you add more information. All I was trying to tell Drac was that portraits of people in ancient art was basically symbolic and made -- like you said -- for the purpose of distinguishing peoples and sexes.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "Europid" features. The North Africans are classified as "Caucasoids" even in old anthropological formulations, regardless of their "SSA" component, which may indeed be larger now than it was in the days when they were being depicted in ancient Egyptian art.

Regardless, other than blue eyes, possibly, those among them who possessed pale skin or fair hair probably didn't get it from the WHG, among whom we've yet to find any of the European specific de-pigmentation genes. The best bet is some minority component among the Neolithic peoples if we're talking about the Libyans depicted by the Egyptians, or perhaps some remnant of the "Sea Peoples" who diffused into the area, and if we're talking about the North Africans of today in isolated pockets like the Rif mountains, for example, I suppose one could add in the European slaves sold in huge slave centers such as Tangiers. In this particular case women were specifically targeted and stolen for sexual purposes, and their offspring were certainly not killed.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

This of course doesn't even cover the much earlier Saracen slave trade. My coast is dotted by "Saracen" towers where look outs could sound the alarm when Saracen ships were sighted. In my husband's regions the coastal areas were virtually abandoned and towns moved inland to better defended promontories.

Angela you forget that millions of Iberian Muslims fled Europe during the 12-13th centuries. I dont understand why people do not know about the ethnic cleansing of Andalusia.
 
The "contradiction" is purely imaginary on your part. In fact, if anything you are the one who is entering into contradictions. You seem to have no problem accepting that many Near Easterners can be light skinned, enough so for the Egyptians to have stereotyped them as being lighter than them, yet you have problems accepting the same for North Africans who also lived in similar climates. Skin pigmentation is not an exact science and does not follow strict geographical patterns, only generalized ones. You can find "swarthy" types among the natives of countries of even such climates as that of the British Isles and Norway, just like you can find fair types in such climates as that of the Middle East and North Africa.

And we are talking about how the Egyptians perceived these peoples who were their neighbors. To them the Libyans seemed like a fairer people, very likely because they had more of these fair types among them than the Egyptians had. If we look at where the majority of fair North African types are still found (Kabyles, Riffians) today we can see that it is indeed in lands west of Egypt.

Stereotypes usually involve the majority of phenotypes not their minority. You are saying that a few light-skinned Libyans represented the majority in Egypt. I am willing to agree with you if Egyptians only saw the light skinned types. But since ancient Egyptians were of Libyan stock and they lived next to Libya, I doubt they would have chosen a minority to represent the race. The same with the Semites. The fair-skinned Berbers are a result of Iberian Muslims who fled the Christians and the 1 million other European slaves captured. Read history.
 
Vandals and Romans too at this point.
 
Angela you forget that millions of Iberian Muslims fled Europe during the 12-13th centuries. I dont understand why people do not know about the ethnic cleansing of Andalusia.


Where on earth do you get the idea that anyone on this Board is denying that there was an expulsion of the Moriscos from Spain? Please refrain from making blanket generalizations or accusations when it's clear that you haven't bothered to read any of the numerous threads on this subject which have been published here, and so have absolutely no basis for your comments.

On the matter of the expulsion of the Moriscos from Spain, and the Sephardics, for that matter, no reputable academic researcher denies that it happened. However, academics are indeed divided as to whether all of them were expelled or some minority remained.

See: Rhetoric and Reality in Early Modern Spain, edited by Richard Pym
One of the relevant sections begins on page 22.
https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...page&q=The Moriscos Who Stayed Behind&f=false

To pretend that there is total agreement on the matter in the academic community is dishonest. As to the skew in geographic distribution, it is documented that after the revolt of the Valencian Moriscos they were resettled in northern and eastern parts of the country. Certain scholars maintain that indeed Valencia was one of the regions where the expulsion was most effective. That may or may not be the case.

If anyone were interested in my personal opinion on the matter I would say that much of the "North African" uniparental and autosomal presence in Iberia is probably pre-historic, with a lot of it coming in the Neolithic. I also think it's unlikely, however, that every last Morisco was rooted out. There is the also the fact that there was intermarriage into the "Old Christian" community and that would have had an impact as well.

Some more clarity could be achieved if an analysis was done of lineages like E-M81 to determine subclades of it and their age, as was done for mtDna U6. Some ancient dna from that period would be nice too. Without well done genetic studies that drill into the details it's difficult to come to any conclusions. Well, it's difficult if you're trying to be objective
 
. Aristotle once stated that the Greeks were between the northern barbarians (who have white skin) and the Ethiopians (who have black skin). This clearly indicates that the ancient Greeks were either brown or light brown in complexion and this is likewise the same for the Semites and Berbers -- I will even go so far as to say the Romans as well! -- even the Iberians.

^this. It will be against some peoples world view but I imagine the majority of ancient Greeks and Romans to have been slightly more "Mediterranean" looking as modern once who have been the target of dozen migrations from North (Germanic, Slavic, Celtic and North Iranic tribes). Heck Xenephon even mentions once, when he and his 100000 men army travel towards Media to assist the Persians against the Medes, that the Iranic groups of that region where lighter skinned than the Greek soldiers who were probably slightly tanned in the sun. Therefore it is save to assume that the Greeks were overall olive skinned people.

I have seen some ancient portraits of Romans and man those looked like how North Europeans "stereotype" the typical Mditerraneans. light Olive/light brown skin color with mostly dark hair. Of course it is out of doubt that just like nowadays a significant number of lighter featured people existed. But they were probably in smaller number as compared to today.
 

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