The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

[Fire Haired14]

New mtDNA from Stone age Eastern Europe(Latvia, Ukraine)

Post at my blog where I argue high frequencies of U5a, U4 in Eastern Europe today is partially due to ancestry from Eastern European hunter gatherers.

 

[Fire Haired14]

As Tomenable just showed all the Latvian hunter gatherers cluster closest to WHG in PCA except Latvia_MN2 who clusters closest to EHG. Latvia_MN2 is also the only Latvian HG with brown eyes and light skin mutation 374F. This is probably not a coincidence because so far most Ukrainian and Russian HGs have brown eyes and the 374F mutation while most WHGs have blue eyes and lack the 374F mutation.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I actually meant the conclusion that agriculture was autonomously arrived at in northeastern Europe, although I also hadn't considered Corded Ware starting out that far north.

If, as Marko is suggesting, it started out this far north, then that could explain the lack of Anatolian derived "farmer". The Corded Ware samples which have it picked it up then in central Europe,yes?

Still, as I asked above:


As for the bolded part of your comment, maybe it's better to talk about LBK like EN for the Anatolian contingent. It's interesting to look at the Haak formulation based on d-stats in this context. The EN would then have arrived in the northeast later.
Also, it's an interesting reminder of how different modern populations are from the Corded Ware, etc. people.

indeed, it looks like WHG increased in the Baltic/Scandinavia after CW, and along with the WHG also came some EEF
early Latvian CW doesn't have any EEF, Estonian CW RISE00 has, but it is not dated, I guess it arrived in late CW, and not from Anatolia but west/central Europe

 

[bicicleur 2]

the EHG was brought to Eastern Europe in late paleolithic/early mesolithic by R1a/R1b
that was right after the Caspian Sea spillover
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_of_Extreme_Inundations

it is the Butovo culture which gradually admixed with the Swiderian WHG folks by taking their wives (U5, U4, U2e contrary to C)

in the mean time R2, R1a and R1b also arrived south of the Caspian into Transcaucasia area, they admixed with CHG
it was the time of the early domestication of goat/sheep by selective culling hunting techniques in the Zagros and Taurus Mts
it is just before the 11.8 ka TMRCA expansion of R1b-V88, and R2 is identified in earliest Iran Neolithic

then CHG and mtDNA H starts to spill over into Eastern Europe from across the Caucasus
we have this in Khvalynsk culture (the R1b-pré-V88 and mtDNA H sample), Dnjepr-Donets culture (mtDNA H) and now 6 ka middle neolithic Latvia

the origin of R would be TMRCA of P 31.9 ka in Aq Kupruk, north of the Hindu Kush, from where R2 expanded into Iran and toward the Zagros Mts in early mesolithic
https://www.academia.edu/5738814/Paleolithic_Afghanistan
R1 would have moved slightly north, upstream of the Oxus & Jaxartes rivers, which was the highway into Aral Sea at the end of the Caspian Sea spillover, and then further via the Volga river into Europe

 

[Tomenable]

indeed, it looks like WHG increased in the Baltic/Scandinavia after CW, and along with the WHG also came some EEF

"Increased" and "came" are not the same thing here. It is like saying that Amerindian "increased" in, or "came" to, Mexico after Spaniards started intermarrying with native aristocracy. When CW came, there were two autosomally distinct groups - CW immigrants, native WHG. Gradually, those groups started mixing, producing "Mestizos".

Corded Ware Latvia_LN1 is like those early Spanish settlers in Mexico.

Not yet mixed with local WHG, but those WHG were there.

 

[MarkoZ]

Weren't there rumors as of recent that the Balkans hosted a SHG-WHG population? This would make an Balkanic origin of European R1b by way of West Asia increasingly likely, as many suspected due to the distribution of L23*.

 

[berun]

So the odds are that R1b-M269/L23 and R1a-M198/M417 both originated in East Europe.

Again you don't look at archaeology...

much of Eastern Europe was barren, density was very low.

2) Karelia, ca. 8850-8000 (avg. 8425) years ago - R1a
3) Lokomotiv, ca. 8125-6025 (avg. 7075) years ago - R1a
4) Lokomotiv, ca. 8125-6025 (avg. 7075) years ago - R1a

So the Karelian sample just can be after the Lokomotiv men... just add up archaeology (Combed Ware origin) and you get who was first. Apply the same for the R1b from its European or Anatolian refuge.

 

[Ukko]

There is no way that Comb-Ware culture was not N1c, and more specifically N1c-L708+ in Europe.

N1c-L708 entered Europe, crossing the Ural Mountains, no later than 7500 years ago (or 5500 BC).

The oldest currently known sample is 4500 years old, from the area of Smolensk (Chekunova 2014).

 

[berun]

With the actual samples available we have now a pocket of I2 in Scandinavia, a pocket of R1b in the Baltics, and a pocket of R1a (with a J1) in European Russia. Too much climatic changes in Europe meant big migrations.

 

[Alan]

oh, oh

Narva	Latvia	Zvejnieki [Burial 93; HG2]	M	7791-7586 cal BP	172,707,718	R1b1a1a	P297; reported as R1b1b, using Karafet et al. 2008 tree	U2e1		Jones 2017; additional info on Y-DNA from Sergey Malyshev
	Latvia	Zvejnieki [Burial 121; HG3]	M	7252-6802 cal BP	37,749,963	R1b1a1a	P297; reported as R1b1b, using Karafet et al. 2008 tree	U5a2d		Jones 2017; additional info on Y-DNA from Sergey Malyshev

Y-DNA would be R1b-P297 which is ancestral to both R1b-M473 and R1b-M269

that changes a lot, because these are IE clades and ancestral to Yamna and Afanasievo

TMRCA 13.4 ka

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

and also the Samara HG belonged to the same clade, he was pré-M473 and in view of the dating may even have been ancestral to R1b-M473

http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_23.06.2015.pdf

Russia

Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44]

M

5650-5555 BC

R1b1a

M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269-

U5a1d

C146T, C152T, C195T, A247G, A249d, 290-291d, T489C, A769G, A825t, A1018G, A2758G, C2885T, T3552a, T3594C, G4104A, T4312C, A4715G, G7146A, C7196a, T7256C, A7521G, T8468C, A8577G, G8584A, T8655C, A9545G, C10400T, T10664C, A10688G, C10810T, C10915T, A11605t, A12217G, G13105A, A13263G, G13276A, T13506C, T13650C, T14318C, T14783C, G15043A, G15301A, A15487t, A16129G, T16187C, G16230A, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, T16325C, C16327T, C16519T, A8577G, A11605t, A12217G, T16189C!

Haak 2015; Sergey Malyshev; Mathieson 2015

Yamna Y-DNA came from mesolithic Eastern Europe and it was there at least since 7.5 ka and probably much earlier

we might be getting on to something now

What I find fascinating, despite all these old R1b clades we have yet to find any R1b p25 let alone M343 there. Despite us having allot of samples from Europe and the Steppes, These two have yet to be found. Up to date they are only found in West and South Central Asia.

 

[Alan]

you're making things unnecessary complicated again,
everybody can learn to drive a truck unless he/she has a disorder
and nobody likes to be stuck in traffic jams all day
but some do it for a living

today there are no HGs any more, because you can't make a living from it
that is what happened
not because they liked farming so much

Yes but to learn how to drive a truck you need someone who knows how to do it and teach you, you can't learn to drive a truck by simply watching from far distance.

 

[Tomenable]

So the Karelian sample just can be after the Lokomotiv men... just add up archaeology (Combed Ware origin) and you get who was first. Apply the same for the R1b from its European or Anatolian refuge.

Again, you have no proof that Combed Ware were R1a instead of N1c. Combed Ware existed in times when N1c could already be present in Europe. N1c has East Asian origin and is less native (shorter presence) in Europe than R1a and R1b. L708 is the oldest subclade of N1c that can be found in Europe. TMRCA of L708 was 7500 ybp. But the oldest European N1c known so far, is the one from Smolensk region dated to around 4500 ybp (Chekunova 2014).

It seems that N1c replaced I2, R1a, even R1b (like these 2 cases from Latvia) in some areas. But in Latvia it was probably R1a which replaced R1b, and then, much later, N1c came and mixed with R1a.

Modern Finns have Corded Ware substrate, but it looks like they were conquered by N1c men.

L708 is the oldest subclade that can be found in Europe, but it can also be found in Asia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural–Altaic_languages

So N1c most probably entered Europe either around 7500 years ago, or a bit later.

======================

BTW, the Narva culture used to be associated with Uralic-speakers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_culture#Historiography_and_research

For a long time archaeologists believed that the first inhabitants of the region were Finno-Ugric, who were pushed north by people of the Corded Ware culture.[4] ... There is an academic debate what ethnicity represented the Narva culture: Finno-Ugrians or other Europids, preceding arrival of the Indo-Europeans.[6]

So Latvian R1b-P297 = Narva culture = Finno-Ugric speakers with R1b?

More likely people of the Narva culture were not Finno-Ugric.

Here is a more recent theory on expansion of Uralic languages in Europe:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi1.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

 

[Angela]

It just occurred to me that the authors might be confusing people when they describe samples in Latvia as "Middle Neolithic". There is no real "Neolithic" in Latvia. The authors have adopted the confusing habit of Russian researchers of calling hunter-gatherer societies with pottery "Neolithic". The Neolithic, as in "agriculture" and "animal domestication", didn't arrive in these far Northeastern European areas until it was brought by Corded Ware.

@Bicicleur,

Bicicleur: in the mean time R2, R1a and R1b also arrived south of the Caspian into Transcaucasia area, they admixed with CHG
it was the time of the early domestication of goat/sheep by selective culling hunting techniques in the Zagros and Taurus Mts
it is just before the 11.8 ka TMRCA expansion of R1b-V88, and R2 is identified in earliest Iran Neolithic

So this would explain why no J2 y dna, and why there is a "Caucasus" component without resorting to bride exchange or theft across the Caucasus as the only explanation?

Which R1b clades do you speculate would have wound up south of the Caspian initially versus north of it, or were they the same, other than R2?

Since the admixture increased over a thousand year time period was it just a function of more such people crossing the Caucasus?

 

[Tomenable]

Weren't there rumors as of recent that the Balkans hosted a SHG-WHG population? This would make an Balkanic origin of European R1b by way of West Asia increasingly likely, as many suspected due to the distribution of L23*.

Balkanic origin of R1b-L23 is what I supported before I started supporting Indo-European R1b-L23.

Back then I thought that R1b-M269/L23 came to the Steppe spreading the knowledge of metallurgy:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32264-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy

The earliest known evidence metallurgy is from the Balkans (the Vinca culture to be precise):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture#Industry

Of course then I assumed that R1b-M269 were originally Non-IE and adopted IE language from R1a.

 

[Angela]

Balkanic origin of R1b-L23 is what I supported before I started supporting Indo-European R1b-L23.

Back then I thought that R1b-M269/L23 came to the Steppe spreading the knowledge of metallurgy:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32264-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy

The earliest known evidence metallurgy is from the Balkans (the Vinca culture to be precise):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture#Industry

Of course then I assumed that R1b-M269 were originally Non-IE and adopted IE language from R1a.

Absolutely untrue as stated. All the latest papers indicate the Near East or near simultaneously in both places. Please use our search engine to research metallurgy.

 

[MarkoZ]

Balkanic origin of R1b-L23 is what I supported before I started supporting Indo-European R1b-L23.

Back then I thought that R1b-M269/L23 came to the Steppe spreading the knowledge of metallurgy:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32264-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy

The earliest known evidence metallurgy is from the Balkans (the Vinca culture to be precise):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture#Industry

Of course then I assumed that R1b-M269 were originally Non-IE and adopted IE language from R1a.

If you're referring to intentionally produced tin-bronze, then no. There is but one tin-bronze plate in Vinca that might as well have been accidentally produced. The origin of copper metallurgy lies in the Levant.

I think it's becoming more & more obvious that European R1b in its earliest stages doesn't have a lot to do with either Indo-European languages or any kind of technological advances - it looks more like a random H&G lineage that got successful.

 

[bicicleur 2]

What I find fascinating, despite all these old R1b clades we have yet to find any R1b p25 let alone M343 there. Despite us having allot of samples from Europe and the Steppes, These two have yet to be found. Up to date they are only found in West and South Central Asia.

yes, well, read my post 104

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yes but to learn how to drive a truck you need someone who knows how to do it and teach you, you can't learn to drive a truck by simply watching from far distance.

ah, yes, indeed, but that has nothing to do with genes

 

[Angela]

As Tomenable just showed all the Latvian hunter gatherers cluster closest to WHG in PCA except Latvia_MN2 who clusters closest to EHG. Latvia_MN2 is also the only Latvian HG with brown eyes and light skin mutation 374F. This is probably not a coincidence because so far most Ukrainian and Russian HGs have brown eyes and the 374F mutation while most WHGs have blue eyes and lack the 374F mutation.

View attachment 8445

So, let me see if I understand your chart. The only sample that had both of the major depigmentation snps was MN2 , which had dark hair and dark eyes, and which you say was closer to EHG in autosomal composition?

What of the sample with blonde hair and blue eyes? What is its status with regard to SLC45A2? Was it ancestral, or they couldn't get a read? If either of these were true, then we really don't have a blonde, blue-eyed, "European white" skinned person at all, do we?

Never mind the fact that we don't see evidence here of a real sweep yet, just a one off as Gamba et al found in Central Europe. Speaking of one offs, do you have in your files the snps for the Ain Ghazi samples? Someone claimed here that there was also a sample from there which was derived for both of the skin snps and also had the blue eye gene and was predicted to have light hair.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes but to learn how to drive a truck you need someone who knows how to do it and teach you, you can't learn to drive a truck by simply watching from far distance.

And where I didn't agree with it? The genetic point is, that even if you teach some people they either won't be able or they will hate it and won't do it. I've asked you many times before to give us one example of modern h-gs doing switching from hunting to farming by observing and learning. Real life example can prove your point. And yet you couldn't find this one tribe.