The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

[bicicleur 2]

It just occurred to me that the authors might be confusing people when they describe samples in Latvia as "Middle Neolithic". There is no real "Neolithic" in Latvia. The authors have adopted the confusing habit of Russian researchers of calling hunter-gatherer societies with pottery "Neolithic". The Neolithic, as in "agriculture" and "animal domestication", didn't arrive in these far Northeastern European areas until it was brought by Corded Ware.

@Bicicleur,



So this would explain why no J2 y dna, and why there is a "Caucasus" component without resorting to bride exchange or theft across the Caucasus as the only explanation?

Which R1b clades do you speculate would have wound up south of the Caspian initially versus north of it, or were they the same, other than R2?

Since the admixture increased over a thousand year time period was it just a function of more such people crossing the Caucasus?

little is known along with what Y-DNA this CHG crossed the Caucasus

I would say the Khvalynsk newcomer was a carrier of the CHG.

Samara Eneolithic

Russia

Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0122/SVP 35]

M

4700-4000 BC

R1b1

M415

H2a1

Mathieson 2015

I0122 Russia Khvalynsk R1b1-M415(xP297) calls

these are the Y-calls acording to Genetiker

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/

positive for R1b and R1b1,
1 positive and 17 negative for R1b-V88 which means the positive is either a false one or this sample is early pré-V88
negative for R1b-P297

this is the only early sample I know with CHG admixture in Eastern Europe of which Y-DNA is known
the CHG in this sample is higher than in the Yamna individuals

which other clades brought CHG to Eastern Europe I don't know, but I would guess R1b and/or J2

it seems like the Y-ancestor of the Yamna population both sampled and hypothysised, R1b-P297 was allready in Eastern Europe before admixture with CHG occured ; I guess the carriers of the CHG were rather small in numbers and their Y-DNA got extinct by the time of Yamna and Afanasievo

the same goes for the R1b that arrived in Transcaucasia : they were very small in numbers and the autosomal DNA shifted from EHG to CHG quite rapidly ; that is why I mentioned that R1b-V88 expanded after arrival in Transcaucasia : the autosomal DNA would allready have shifted before the Y-DNA started to expand ; it is even so that the autosomal of the R1b-V88 in Els Trocs is EEF with some WHG and no EHG nor CHG ; of course that was almost 5.000 years later than arrival in Transcaucasia ; you see the same in R1b Villabruna who was 100 % WHG, he was a loner in his Y-DNA and his mtDNA was European

it's all just a theory of mine, but in this study I find some confirmation

p.s. you're right about the middle neolithic being mesolith with pottery, alltough the transition from HG to farmer in this area is not very clear
the late neolithic sample coïncides with the onset of CW herders

 

[bicicleur 2]

So, let me see if I understand your chart. The only sample that had both of the major depigmentation snps was MN2 , which had dark hair and dark eyes, and which you say was closer to EHG in autosomal composition?

What of the sample with blonde hair and blue eyes? What is its status with regard to SLC45A2? Was it ancestral, or they couldn't get a read? If either of these were true, then we really don't have a blonde, blue-eyed, "European white" skinned person at all, do we?

Never mind the fact that we don't see evidence here of a real sweep yet, just a one off as Gamba et al found in Central Europe. Speaking of one offs, do you have in your files the snps for the Ain Ghazi samples? Someone claimed here that there was also a sample from there which was derived for both of the skin snps and also had the blue eye gene and was predicted to have light hair.

indeed, the blue eyes or blond hair or white skins found uptill now seem rather one offs and these here too

still I think these people in this study have a chance of being ancestral to the 'European' white people as they seem ancestral to the CW and Sintashta expansion
how else would 'European' looking people have made it till the Tarim Basin 3.5-4 ka?
just a hunch, no proof of course

 

[berun]

Again, you have no proof that Combed Ware were R1a instead of N1c. Combed Ware existed in times when N1c could already be present in Europe. N1c has East Asian origin and is less native (shorter presence) in Europe than R1a and R1b. L708 is the oldest subclade of N1c that can be found in Europe. TMRCA of L708 was 7500 ybp. But the oldest European N1c known so far, is the one from Smolensk region dated to around 4500 ybp (Chekunova 2014).

It seems that N1c replaced I2, R1a, even R1b (like these 2 cases from Latvia) in some areas. But in Latvia it was probably R1a which replaced R1b, and then, much later, N1c came and mixed with R1a.

just in the wiki, there are papers and even maps but not time...

In the east the Comb Ceramic pottery of northern Eurasia extends beyond the Ural mountains to the Baraba steppe adjacent to the Altai-Sayan mountain range, merging with a continuum of similar ceramic styles.^[1] It would include the Narva culture of Estonia and the Sperrings culture in Finland, among others.

If we have HG R1a in the Baikal, if we know that Comb Ware Culture extended westwards by then, and knowing that after such cultural expansion we get in Eastern Europe HG R1a... just it's to use logics, a little, because the R1a clans are not so old.

For the N history, nice but it's a young clade which poped up in the Amur valley, they represent a later Siberian wave.

 

[Angela]

indeed, the blue eyes or blond hair or white skins found uptill now seem rather one offs and these here too

still I think these people in this study have a chance of being ancestral to the 'European' white people as they seem ancestral to the CW and Sintashta expansion
how else would 'European' looking people have made it till the Tarim Basin 3.5-4 ka?
just a hunch, no proof of course

I agree it's certainly possible.

There's just still a lot that we don't know, I think. I never would have imagined that it could have increased as much as it apparently did, and in just, what, 1000 years in most places? Unless, in terms of the far eastern populations at least it was a really massive founder effect in which the people who left happened to have these alleles in a higher percentage and then there was just drift and some form of natural selection? Also, in terms of the Gamba sample from Hungary which was both derived for the two "skin" snps and blue eyes, and also was predicted to have light hair, I suppose one could say some genes drifted down into this area, but it could as well have come with the Anatolian Neolithic if they were also present there (and these are very Anatolian Neolithic like samples). Then, how did it get to Anatolia?
http://www.nature.com/article-asset...comms6257/images_hires/m685/ncomms6257-f3.jpg

It has to be, as one paper suggested, something in the background genome of perhaps the WHG and the EHG and then there was selection.

They're eventually going to have to do another paper on this.

 

[Angela]

little is known along with what Y-DNA this CHG crossed the Caucasus

I would say the Khvalynsk newcomer was a carrier of the CHG.

Samara Eneolithic

Russia

Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0122/SVP 35]

M

4700-4000 BC

R1b1

M415

H2a1

Mathieson 2015

I0122 Russia Khvalynsk R1b1-M415(xP297) calls

these are the Y-calls acording to Genetiker

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/

positive for R1b and R1b1,
1 positive and 17 negative for R1b-V88 which means the positive is either a false one or this sample is early pré-V88
negative for R1b-P297

this is the only early sample I know with CHG admixture in Eastern Europe of which Y-DNA is known
the CHG in this sample is higher than in the Yamna individuals

which other clades brought CHG to Eastern Europe I don't know, but I would guess R1b and/or J2

it seems like the Y-ancestor of the Yamna population both sampled and hypothysised, R1b-P297 was allready in Eastern Europe before admixture with CHG occured ; I guess the carriers of the CHG were rather small in numbers and their Y-DNA got extinct by the time of Yamna and Afanasievo

the same goes for the R1b that arrived in Transcaucasia : they were very small in numbers and the autosomal DNA shifted from EHG to CHG quite rapidly ; that is why I mentioned that R1b-V88 expanded after arrival in Transcaucasia : the autosomal DNA would allready have shifted before the Y-DNA started to expand ; it is even so that the autosomal of the R1b-V88 in Els Trocs is EEF with some WHG and no EHG nor CHG ; of course that was almost 5.000 years later than arrival in Transcaucasia ; you see the same in R1b Villabruna who was 100 % WHG, he was a loner in his Y-DNA and his mtDNA was European

it's all just a theory of mine, but in this study I find some confirmation

p.s. you're right about the middle neolithic being mesolith with pottery, alltough the transition from HG to farmer in this area is not very clear
the late neolithic sample coïncides with the onset of CW herders

To the best of my recollection all the papers indicate an increase in "CHG" from the time of the sample you cited. On what do you base that reasoning?

 

[Tomenable]

Berun,

Since Narva is part of Comb Ware, you have R1b in Comb Ware - not R1a.

 

[Tomenable]

The only sample that had both of the major depigmentation snps was MN2

Nope. Neither the only one, nor the oldest one.

Ukraine_HG1 had both of the major skin lightening alleles + brown eyes + brown hair:

"Note that the Ukrainian HG is dated to 11143-10591 ybp so about 9193-8641 BC and yet is derived for both SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 making it the oldest sample derived for both light skin mutations."

So something like this (assuming that it was a woman, because no Y-DNA is reported):

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2082666371/2072883530/gr1_lrg.jpg

 

[bicicleur 2]

To the best of my recollection all the papers indicate an increase in "CHG" from the time of the sample you cited. On what do you base that reasoning?

in the K = 14 admixture of Genetiker I check, there is a CHG-like component of which this sample has about 23 % while yamna in average some 15 % and CW/Sintashta has substantialy less, the Poltavka newcomer has less as well (but they have an EEF-like component which Yamna don't have)
the early European HG have very little of this component, upto 4 %, just like the 2 other Khvalynsk samples
I don't have the Dnepr-Donets admixture, but there I see mtDNA H appear

I started checking this when I noticed the contrast of this 1 Khvalynsk compared to the 2 others

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/10/07/k-14-admixture-analysis-of-lapita-genomes/

 

[Fire Haired14]

So, let me see if I understand your chart. The only sample that had both of the major depigmentation snps was MN2 , which had dark hair and dark eyes, and which you say was closer to EHG in autosomal composition?

That chart was created by the paper not me. All of the pre-Corded Ware Latvians appear to be pure WHGs except MN2 who might surprisingly be pure EHG. The pigment alleles for the pre-Corded Ware Latvians match their autosomal makeup, the (mostly)WHGs have blue eyes and dark skin alleles the (mostly)EHGs have brown eyes and light skin alleles.

What of the sample with blonde hair and blue eyes? What is its status with regard to SLC45A2? Was it ancestral, or they couldn't get a read? If either of these were true, then we really don't have a blonde, blue-eyed, "European white" skinned person at all, do we?

She(?) was predicated to have blonde hair because she(?) wasn't tested for rs16891982. If she was she'd certainly be ancestral and would have probably received a black/dark brown hair prediction.

Never mind the fact that we don't see evidence here of a real sweep yet, just a one off as Gamba et al found in Central Europe. Speaking of one offs, do you have in your files the snps for the Ain Ghazi samples? Someone claimed here that there was also a sample from there which was derived for both of the skin snps and also had the blue eye gene and was predicted to have light hair.

I agree. To me the results just display pigmentation difference between WHG and EHG. One of the Ain Ghazi samples(Levant Neolithic?) had a single derived allele in rs16891982 and may have also had one in rs12913832. He/She wouldn't be predicted to have light hair. I bet some in Levant Neolithic had derived alleles for both SNPs because some in Anatolia Neolithic did.

 

[bicicleur 2]

"The Lake Baikal of Siberia was home to two temporally distinct populations from Early Neolithic, EN (8000-6800 cal BP) to Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age, LN-EBA (5800-4000 cal BP). The EN group was separated from the LN-EBA group by a 1000-year gap (hiatus)." All R1a are EN.

And sure you know about Comb-Ware culture and its epicenter...

I have another reason to believe that R1a in Lokomotiv arrived from the west, and probably all the way from Europe.
Lokomotiv has also mtDNA U5a, which is European, even western European, Gravettian.
I suspect R1a and U5a came as a package to Lokomotiv.
Furthermore both are the minority in Lokomotiv, a loner.

I told earlier I think R1a/R1b arrived in Europe in the Volga area with Butovo culture, near the end of youngest dryas.
Many took local European wives instead of their own mtDNA C.
Check post 104.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I agree it's certainly possible.

There's just still a lot that we don't know, I think. I never would have imagined that it could have increased as much as it apparently did, and in just, what, 1000 years in most places? Unless, in terms of the far eastern populations at least it was a really massive founder effect in which the people who left happened to have these alleles in a higher percentage and then there was just drift and some form of natural selection? Also, in terms of the Gamba sample from Hungary which was both derived for the two "skin" snps and blue eyes, and also was predicted to have light hair, I suppose one could say some genes drifted down into this area, but it could as well have come with the Anatolian Neolithic if they were also present there (and these are very Anatolian Neolithic like samples). Then, how did it get to Anatolia?
http://www.nature.com/article-asset...comms6257/images_hires/m685/ncomms6257-f3.jpg

It has to be, as one paper suggested, something in the background genome of perhaps the WHG and the EHG and then there was selection.

They're eventually going to have to do another paper on this.

It would be interesting to see what natural selection did kick in.
There were ample random alleles, be it in the minority background.
All it took was natural selection and a subsequent expansion of the folks that had undergone the selection.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Angela, something else.
Just before this paper was published I was trying to figure out where and when mongoloid traits started to devellop.
Mongoloid traits are also recognized in Amerindian tribes like the Bororo who live in the tropics in Brazil, so it is not a local adaptation of them, so it must allready have been in Siberia prior to the population of America.
Do you have any hints?

 

[Angela]

That chart was created by the paper not me. All of the pre-Corded Ware Latvians appear to be pure WHGs except MN2 who might surprisingly be pure EHG. The pigment alleles for the pre-Corded Ware Latvians match their autosomal makeup, the (mostly)WHGs have blue eyes and dark skin alleles the (mostly)EHGs have brown eyes and light skin alleles.

She(?) was predicated to have blonde hair because she(?) wasn't tested for rs16891982. If she was she'd certainly be ancestral and would have probably received a black/dark brown hair prediction.

I agree. To me the results just display pigmentation difference between WHG and EHG. One of the Ain Ghazi samples(Levant Neolithic?) had a single derived allele in rs16891982 and may have also had one in rs12913832. He/She wouldn't be predicted to have light hair. I bet some in Levant Neolithic had derived alleles for both SNPs because some in Anatolia Neolithic did.

Thank-you for the response, FH.

So, in fact, we don't have blonde, blue-eyed, "European" white skinned people in this area in the mesolithic. It's still blue-eyed, dark skinned people, and brown haired, brown eyed and light skinned people, which might be an EHG trademark at that time. I could put my own picture up as an example of the latter, but no, I don't think it's because of my U2e mtDna, despite the fact that my closest ancient mtDna match is from German Corded Ware.

It gets tiring spending all this time cleaning up incorrect information on this thread.

Oh, in this case, the Hungarian Neolithic sample is still our first example of that combination.

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Angela,

The oldest example of that combination is the Samara HG.

 

[Sile]

Nope. Neither the only one, nor the oldest one.

Ukraine_HG1 had both of the major skin lightening alleles + brown eyes + brown hair:

"Note that the Ukrainian HG is dated to 11143-10591 ybp so about 9193-8641 BC and yet is derived for both SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 making it the oldest sample derived for both light skin mutations."

So something like this (assuming that it was a woman, because no Y-DNA is reported):

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2082666371/2072883530/gr1_lrg.jpg

When are the slavs going to stop minimising the impact of the west-balts and east-balt people from poland to estonia ................clearly these are baltic people in the north

I find a very high % of slavs are racists against baltic people

 

[Megalophias]

So something like this (assuming that it was a woman, because no Y-DNA is reported)

Both the Ukrainians are men, of robust build. Probably their haplogroup-finding program could not find an answer because they are relatively low coverage. However, we have Y haplogroup results from other ancient samples with similar coverage, so I expect the usual suspects can give us at least low-resolution results for these, and for Latvia_MN1. Also, Latvia_HG2 is fairly good coverage so a more detailed assignment should be possible for this one too, whether he is related to Samara_HG, or if he is on the M269 branch.

Latvia_MN1 is not east-shifted so is not too likely to show any newly arrived Comb Ware haplogroup, but you never know. Latvia_MN2, the EHG-like one, is a woman, as is the Corded Ware Latvia_LN1.

 

[Tomenable]

Both the Ukrainians are men, of robust build.

Do you have photos of their skulls or face reconstructions?

 

[MarkoZ]

Both the Ukrainians are men, of robust build. Probably their haplogroup-finding program could not find an answer because they are relatively low coverage. However, we have Y haplogroup results from other ancient samples with similar coverage, so I expect the usual suspects can give us at least low-resolution results for these, and for Latvia_MN1. Also, Latvia_HG2 is fairly good coverage so a more detailed assignment should be possible for this one too, whether he is related to Samara_HG, or if he is on the M269 branch.

Latvia_MN1 is not east-shifted so is not too likely to show any newly arrived Comb Ware haplogroup, but you never know. Latvia_MN2, the EHG-like one, is a woman, as is the Corded Ware Latvia_LN1.

Since no one seems to be asking, what's the verdict regarding the reliability of those results? Did the White God disclose which program he uses for variant calling?

 

[Megalophias]

Since no one seems to be asking, what's the verdict regarding the reliability of those results? Did the White God disclose which program he uses for variant calling?

genetiker's raw results basically always agree with what other people get; occasionally there is a difference of opinion over whether an ambiguous result should be interpreted one way or the other, or whether some particular call is due to DNA damage or whatnot, but usually everyone's results are in agreement.

 

[Megalophias]

Do you have photos of their skulls or face reconstructions?

No. There are several references in the supp info, but most are rather old.