I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians
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Angela
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This is just spamming the same stuff over and over again.
There is absolutely nothing new. Even finding I2a-Din in a member of one of the Slavic speaking tribes who moved into the former Yugoslavia in the Middle Ages, should that happen, won't convince him.
There is absolutely nothing new. Even finding I2a-Din in a member of one of the Slavic speaking tribes who moved into the former Yugoslavia in the Middle Ages, should that happen, won't convince him.
I think this thread is elaborated.
We gave four theories in science:
1. Slavic theory
2. Thracian theory
3. German theory
4. Illyrian theory.
We concluded:
1) Theory 4. is not possible for I-CTS10228, but it could be possible for younger clade I-PH908 (I-PH908 could be Illyrian if emerged in 150 AD in Illyricum, or Thracian marker if emerged in 150 in land of Thracian tribes, or anything third)
2) I-CTS10228 could not emerge among Slavs because Slavs were not in areas where this haplogroup could appear after bottleneck.
3) I-CTS10228 could be German or Thracian marker, or mixed German/Thracian marker.
It means Maciamo can be right that I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans with Thracians (Getae-Dacians). Plus Germans.
I-CTS10228 didn't come to Balkans with Illyrians, but probability exists younger clade I-PH908 could be emerged among Illyrians.
...
I am not passionate interested for this thread more, because Maciamo's assumption is proven to be plausible (one part for Thracians/Dacians) except someone brings new scientific facts. And I'm not interested in bickering.
Angela, let's see from both perspectives. Because it is possible, what you say, with probability 1. Of course it is possible that scientists find I-CTS10228 in the Balkans in 1 or 2 century. Because carriers of haplogroup moved on the south, on the east and on the north many times for 2300 years. Many tribes could bring this haplogroup. But here other question dominated: where I-CTS10228 carrier emerged after bottleneck 300 BC, among Slavs, among Thracians, among Germans or among Illyrians.
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Kingslav
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Wrong again, and I have only read up to 10:47 am today lol. R1A is exclusive Slav marker that was acquired from assimilation of Balts, Sarmatians and Nordics to make your famous "Proto-Slavs" the blonde hair kind which can ironically be found in Albania also. I2A-Din is Dinaric marker the "Tall Slavs" which is mix of Thracians, Sarmatians, Goths. These dudes are making valid point and citing all there sources. And you guys don't cite anything and just argue. I am starting to believe your source is that Balkans DNA video on youtube with groups like Thracians Illyrians etc you know what I'm talking about, that looks like a third grader made for his social sciences project. Propaganda.
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Angela
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After all of the papers of the recent years how can you possibly say R1a is exclusively a Slav marker?
When R1a formed there were no Slavs, for goodness' sakes.
Sometimes I feel like Alice down the rabbit hole. Or Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz: I don't think this is Kansas anymore, Toto!
@Garrick
You have to also consider where was his father, and his father? Where was the specific subclade which led to this one? Don't you see that? From everything I can see, it looks like it was north of the Carpathians, and so, no, not "autochthonous", and less "native" in the former Yugoslavia probably than E-V13 and J2b and R1b and G2a. I think I2a-Din is late in the Balkans, maybe as late as R1a.
Not that I see why this should have any importance whatsoever.
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Kingslav
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I agree Angela R1A formed in Indian south-continent that is why my other cousins Afghans, North Indians, Tajiks, etc carry R1A. We know Sarmatians originated in Asia and carried R1A based off archaeological findings I can source for you. R1A people were first to domesticate horse allowing them to travel further than any race ever before. When R1A diversified 5300 years ago in steppe it was being brought by Sarmatians and then mixed with Balts and Nordics. To make the blonde hair Northeast Slavs. Didn't happen overnight took many generations and thousands of years. I am Slav so I believe this, what is your other theory of how R1A spread? If I may ask, and apologize for confusion I meant to say R1A is Slavic marker in EUROPE as R1A is also found in Afghans, North Indians, Tajiks, etc.
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I don't see that someone denounce this. Some old I2a branches were in the Balkans 9000 years ago and earlier. If we are talking about I-CTS10228 it came first to the Balkans in some period after 300 BC, it is possible in 0-100 AD or +/-. Here debate was whose is this marker and who brought it to the Balkans. And I gave any evidence, just what you are talking about territory and fathers, that it is probably German or Thracian or mixed German/Thracian marker and entered to the Balkans first with Thracians and Germans. Your question about importance is right, reputation. I don't value why and how much is important. For science it is important to clarify movement I2a (all branches, old and younger) in Europe since Paleolithic till today.
MOESAN
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interesting point - but before to answer it needs to determine the parts of lexicon concerned by slavic words; I 'll try to find something out; that said the Slavs input is Romania is surely light enough spite evident for me, and not level in the country -
Kingslav
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East Germanic tribes carry I2 and also R1A acquired from neighbours "Proto-Slavs" who WERE forming at times of expansion of I2A 1900 years ago.
Kingslav
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This is evident in modern populations Germans, Swedes for example who have 10-20% Eastern European R1A affinities in there modern genome. Germans not purely R1B either...
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So according to you some proto-slavs bearing hg I2a jumped on the "goth train" to the balkans, just to be slavicized a couple of hundreds years later by actual slavs bearing the same haplogroups as themselves?
How convenient..
Kingslav
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I already said I2a is Thracians, Sarmatians, Goths. These groups lived in close proximity so the elites in these tribes definitely carried Dinaric marker I2A. No imaginary train but on horseback as its well documented Thracian arrived from northeast with there Gold plated chariots etc, which is striking resemblance with Sarmatians known for their luxorious Golds who were expanding at this time from east, hmmmmmm??? Next problem, you can fool other people i dont really care with terms Thracians, Dacians, Getae, etc but its documented these were for same people given by different historian. You putting all your chips right now on these names but if i prove they were same people your theory no foundation. You didnt travel timemachine 2000 years to document these tribe names.
Garrick the Serb (and the likes) is purposely spamming this thread with disinformation to discredit the likeliest theory, which is the Slavic. Perfect example of this disinformation can be seen here.
I don't get it. As if there is something wrong with being Slav.
I don't get it. As if there is something wrong with being Slav.
Kingslav
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Slav is best, stop changing topic rapidly 10 mins or less everytime I disprove your fantasy dreams and modern illusions.
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If we go by that logic, why bother with history at all?
Then we can call all of the ancient writers liars.
There are no such thing as absolute facts when we are talking history.
By your logic i should be able to tell you that Abraham Lincoln never existed. And that all portaits of him are made up, and his descendants are paid liars.
And you do not have a time machine to go back and prove me wrong.
You see?
That logic does not go hand in hand with studying the past.
That kind of logic fits better for a life of crime.
Innocent till proven guilty, right?
LMAO, you have "disproved" nothing I said. And do not quote me again with fairy tales, as it seems you're more interested in engaging in fairy tales, rather than having an intelligent conversation.
I guess you're a Serb too, not happy with your I2a-Slav pretending to be Polak. I very much doubt a true Polak carrying I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav (which is thousands of them) would claim that his paternal ancestor came from the Balkans "Thracian".
As always hit right in to center, reputation.
It is truth, unfortunately. There are still people everywhere in the Balkans who don't know what is cooperation and collaboration. Today, without cooperation has no progress. And those who cheat and lie don't have an advantage, on the contrary, they are losers. Everyone can read game theory.
There is a old Serbian fair tale:
In Trojan's are goats ears
It is story since Roman period on the Balkans, about truth and lie.
It is difficult for me to translate, and Serbian is archaic, but there is a lesson of story that truth is revealed no matter what kinds of actions Trojan did to prevent it.
The truth is always revealed, earlier or later, there is no secret under the heavens.
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