I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

When this state New Serbia was brought into existince in 1752, Poland ruled over what is now Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and also parts of Romania, Russia and Estonia. Former Polish Commonwealth. In these Southern lands of Commonwealth already lived pre-migration descendants of White Croats (Bijeli Hravti) who carry I2A-Din. Serbs didnt give birth to Eastern Europeans, but we did accept Serbs into our lands because they Slavs with similar culture. I2A-Din already existed there but Serbs could brought more.
 
It is generally considered that the name of Croats - Hrvat/Horvat/Harvat, etymologically is not of Slavic origin, but a borrowing from Iranian languages. It is considered that the ethnonym Hrvat is first attested on the two Tanais Tablets, found in the Greek colony of Tanais in the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD, at the time when the colony was surrounded by Iranian-speaking Sarmatians. The first Iranian tribes who lived on the shores of Sea of Azov were Scythians, who arrived there c. 7th century BCE. Around the 4th century BCE they withdrew before the incursions of Sarmatians. In that area occurred extensive Early Slavic and Iranian cultural and linguistical contacts. - White Croats Wikipedia
 
I wanna invite everyone to go briefly through these 3 articles on Vlachs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Serbia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_of_Croatia

It is evident that a large bulk fo Vlachs moved Westward from Central Balkans towards Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, then later towards the Habsburg Empire lands.

There are way too many little clues to consider it a coincidence, together with the I2a-Din peak in South Albania being exactly where Vlachs live, with areas having up to 70% of it.

Seems highly improbable that Slavs who initially settled in the lowlands moved later to the mountains, adopted a Romance speech along with their names and became nomadic or semi-nomadic for no reason whatsoever (the Ottomans weren't a threat yet in that period), then got re-Slavicized again by the 15th-16th century (which "coincidentally" is the time they lost their privileges and became sedentary).

Now of course I expect some members to lecture me on how the term Vlach was simply a profession, that of a shepherd specifically, but I don't buy that crap. Vlachs were Romance speaking (not denying that they spoke Slavic too) and were always a separate ethnic group, even from Albanians that had an identical culture and the language being the only difference, although many Vlach last names seem to have been Albanian, which is to be expected from 2 of the oldest ethnic groups in the Balkans.

From the anthropology perspective (at least for me), that solves the mystery of the more Mediterranean features of the population of Herzegovina, Dalmatia, and North Montenegro. It wouldn't be wrong to assume that if I2a-Din was indeed Slavic we would have had a population with far more North-East European features and at least a hybrid Baltid-Dinarid mix.
 
Stop those crappy wikipedia references guys.
I could write that the whole world stem from a middle age slavic king on a piece of paper, and it would be just as trustworthy as that website.

No one is believing you guys.
You are bringing up a outdated theory proposed in 2013.

Everyone knows that I2a-slav is a marker of slavic expansions, and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Move on please.


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Balkanite said:
Stop those crappy wikipedia references guys.
I could write that the whole world stem from a middle age slavic king on a piece of paper, and it would be just as trustworthy as that website.

No one is believing you guys.
You are bringing up a outdated theory proposed in 2013.

Everyone knows that I2a-slav is a marker of slavic expansions, and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Move on please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Look at Wikipedia as a page where several sources are gathered. Find the source that you disagree with and bring evidence. U seem quite ignorant though.
 
Nik said:
Look at Wikipedia as a page where several sources are gathered. Find the source that you disagree with and bring evidence. U seem quite ignorant though.
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Why don't you try to respond to the facts I laid out above. How do you explain the early Middle Age expansion of this clade, as suggested by its young TMRCA, almost entirely throughout the Slavic world.
Instead, you're pushing for some baseless "indigenous Vlach" theory, as if Vlachs could've only been I2a-Din, and not E-V13, J2b2, R1b, J2a, etc.
 
Nik said:
Look at Wikipedia as a page where several sources are gathered. Find the source that you disagree with and bring evidence. U seem quite ignorant though.
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Then quote those sources instead. I do not need to see third hand interpretations written by serbs like yourself.

Hehe i seem ignorant? You are writing "you" as "U".
Good luck making people take you seriously.
 
Trojet said:
Why don't you try to respond to the facts I laid out above. How do you explain the early Middle Age expansion of this clade, as suggested by its young TMRCA, almost entirely throughout the Slavic world.
Instead, you're pushing for some baseless "indigenous Vlach" theory, as if Vlachs could've only been I2a-Din, and not E-V13, J2b2, R1b, J2a, etc.
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Trojet, you shouldnt expect Nik or the others to counter any facts.

The child does obviously not know what facts are. So for him countering facts is a whole new undiscovered dimension of knowlegde.
Its like schooling my 3 year old nephew. We got to start from the bottom here.
For gods sake, he is using 2010ish wikipedia articles written by serbs, to prove a point about haplogroups. It is very convinient for him though, that way he can keep his greek helmeted avatar while still being a slav.
 
I2a-Slav is the new name, as it's Slavic in origin from North Eastern Europe, relatively recent too.
It only exists in Slavic speakers or areas with previous Slavic presence.

It's ironic that the same people who are discrediting Kenneth Nordtvedt are the same ones using the designation he gave to it: "-Din".


Vlachs in FYROM, for example have alot of R1a and I2a-Slav. Alot of the early Slavs settled in the area.

Ghegs are somewhat Vlachs except that Ghegs don't have that extra MENA or Slavic input.

Ghegs(original Illyrians) are in other words the autochthonous version - opposed to Vlachs who lost their Illyrian identity from Slavic incursions and other, foreign admixtures.
 
Balkanite said:
Then quote those sources instead. I do not need to see third hand interpretations written by serbs like yourself.

Hehe i seem ignorant? You are writing "you" as "U".
Good luck making people take you seriously.
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Is Nik Serbian, or I2a-Slav atleast? Then I am not surprised with his coping, regardless of facts presented.


It's time to accept reality: J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and possibly EV13(Ancient Thracian sample found with it) are the Illyrian haplogroups.
 
@Balkanite, I can have a decent conversation with Trojet and rather avoid ye (since you're an immigrant in Ireland). If I'm confused or have a different opinion and engaging in this topic, means I'm willing to learn.

Being ignorant in this field is not smth u should take as an offense, unless ur making a living out of it and I doubt that. You're one of those low level possibly uneducated Albanians that make the rest of us look bad. I'm actually proud we have members such as Trojet, Bergin, or others who's names I can't recall, unlike fake nationalists like you who claim to be Arvanite on other posts just to prove a point.

And as for me being a Serb, first its a stupid conclusion because Serbs hate being called Vlach, as well as being perceived as similar to Albanians. Second, I hail from one of the most Albanian regions and clans so for ur nationalisms sake u should pray I'm not actually a Serb. Where are you from by the way? Gjakova by any chance? I have a hunch.

@Trojet
Which facts are you referring to?

1) I see it as a North-Eastern Balkans and Carpathian haplogroup? You got any facts that disprove my belief?

2) Since Vlachs where indigenous Romanized people, I assumed it was their Westward and Southward migration that brought this haplogroup to its current distribution, while the local Illyrian-Dardanian haplogroups fled Southward and were concentrated in what became the Albanian speaking area of the Balkans, and eventually surrounded by the more Northern Balkanites such as the Romanized Pannonians, Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Scythians, Goths, u name it. Vlachs were even settling in Poland, Slovakia, and Moravia, although it could have been a separate migration that spread it there. So where's the weakness of this theory with regards to the Balkans?

3) I said that many Montenegrin/Serb/Herzegovinian clans were Vlachs. Are you saying that Slavs turned into Vlachs (or were simply called Vlachs due to being Orthodox or simply shepherds as Serbs claim) and later became Slavs again? If not, where's the problem with my theory again?

4) In a region where genetically they make up the majority (70% I2a-Din and 15-20% R1a), why do they look closer to Albanians than to Russians/Poles/Ukrainians?

And one more thing, since you bring up the fact that I2a-Din is present all over the Slavic speaking countries, are you considering the fact that most of the I2a-Din in West and East Slavs is actually I2a-Din-North and not South? From what I remember, I-North is older so its distribution to North-Eastern Europe doesn't have to be linked to the same population movements that spread it in the Balkans. What do you think?
 
I would propose that haplogroup G is also native combined with the haplogroups on Father's excellent post above, since (if I recall correctly) it was found in Neolithic Thessaly (or was it Thessaloniki?).

I2a-Slav however, is obviously not.
 
Fatherland said:
Is Nik Serbian, or I2a-Slav atleast? Then I am not surprised with his coping, regardless of facts presented.
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I guess only a I2a-slav would go through such lengths, just to confuse people with this non sense about I2a-slav being a Thracian or Illyrian paternal line.

Fatherland said:
It's time to accept reality: J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and possibly EV13(Ancient Thracian sample found with it) are the Illyrian haplogroups.
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And yes, what you are saying here is not only logical, but everyone with eyes(and knowlegde of ancient DNA+TMRCA) should be able to see these facts.

And i believe that most people here on eupedia who understands these basic principles of genetics, they know that you are right.

Unfortunately there is a little gang of wikipedia citers who constantly try to spam this thread with outdated, altered and absurd third hand sources, trying to pollute the minds of the new eupedia users with theories of some long lost slavic speaking thracians bearing the haplogroup of I2a-slav.
 
Fatherland said:
Vlachs in FYROM, for example have alot of R1a and I2a-Slav. Alot of the early Slavs settled in the area.

Ghegs are somewhat Vlachs except that Ghegs don't have that extra MENA or Slavic input.

Ghegs(original Illyrians) are in other words the autochthonous version - opposed to Vlachs who lost their Illyrian identity from Slavic incursions and other, foreign admixtures.
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1) Romanians have R1a and I2a-Din too and those haplgroups are not exclusive to Slavs. They could have been Dacian, Scythian, Bastarnae, Sarmatian, Balts, East Germans.

2) Vlach is a wide term as they are local Romanized Balkanites, so obviously they belong to a different mix of haplogroups depending on the region they settled or the region they hailed from. If they were Greeks, obviously they have a lot of J2a and E-V13, if Illyrians they must have J2b, E-V13, and R1b, and if they were Dacians they could be I2a, R1a, E-V13, R1b. Do you get it?

Just for curiosity since you took Balkanite's "accusation" of me being Serb for granted, where are you from then?
 
Nik said:
1) Romanians have R1a and I2a-Din too and those haplgroups are not exclusive to Slavs. They could have been Dacian, Scythian, Bastarnae, Sarmatian, Balts, East Germans.

2) Vlach is a wide term as they are local Romanized Balkanites, so obviously they belong to a different mix of haplogroups depending on the region they settled or the region they hailed from. If they were Greeks, obviously they have a lot of J2a and E-V13, if Illyrians they must have J2b, E-V13, and R1b, and if they were Dacians they could be I2a, R1a, E-V13, R1b. Do you get it?

Just for curiosity since you took Balkanite's "accusation" of me being Serb for granted, where are you from then?
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You are confusing modern haplogroups with Ancient while there is no proof.

I am what I am - an Illyrian, a Ghegide. Of the same stock as the Ancient Illyrian man they found in Dalmatia: J2b2-L283.

I am not a Vlach who are of mixed races, neither am I a Slav who came from the swamps of North Eastern Europe.

You are just speculating. We don't know what Ancient Greeks carried in the mainland until Ancient samples are out.
The Ancient EV13 that was found was Thracian.

Not every haplogroup that exists in modern people belonged to Ancient people that we know.
 
@Nik, I don't have time to be repeating myself over and over. Please read my numerous posts again in this thread, if you didn't pay close attention.

In short: It matters less which "Dinaric" cluster (North or South) is more common in the Balkans or East Slavs. Percentages are meaningless. What matters is both are present in considerable amounts in East, West, and South Slavs. Considering that North of the Carpathians there is many samples who are ancestral to the "Dinaric" clade (I-CTS10228), and nowhere south of the Carpathians, it's origin most definitely lies North of the Carpathians. And also considering it's young TMRCA, it expanded as part of Slavic migrations. I have nothing else to say.

If you're one of the Albanians who carries this clade, you have nothing to worry about, as it by no means changes your ethnic identity. Afterall the Y-DNA represents the origin of only one of your many ancestral lines. Although my Y-DNA and maternal Y-DNA are not I-CTS10228, if I were to test my many other ancestral lines, this clade will most likely show up. The Slavs have been living near us for the last 1500 years. So it is to be expected that we have some genetic input. But in the end it doesn't change our ethnic identity. Just like the Slavs have a considerable amount of Pre-Slavic Y-DNA, but in the end they are still Slavs. There is no present Balkan population that is genetically 100% the same as Pre-Slavic Paleo-Balkan populations. However, considering the data, the Gheg Albanians are to the closest thing we have.
 
Nik, if you're I2a-Slav (like it seems you are) there is nothing wrong with that man!
It's a perfectly fine haplogroup that exists in our Slavic neighbors, so it's not a totally alien haplogroup, like say H.
 
Fatherland said:
You are confusing modern haplogroups with Ancient while there is no proof.

I am what I am - an Illyrian, a Ghegide. Of the same stock as the Ancient Illyrian man they found in Dalmatia: J2b2-L283.

I am not a Vlach who are a of mixed race, neither am I a Slav who came from the swamps of North Eastern Europe.

You are just speculating. We don't know what Ancient Greeks carried in the mainland until Ancient samples are out.
The Ancient EV13 that was found is Thracian.
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So, I give an opinion and I clearly state that it's just a theory while you are so confident that I2a-Din is Slavic that even decided to change its name to I2a-Slavic, yet I am the one speculating? Jeez.

Yeah, yeah, you're the descendant of Bato I know. I mean which region and which clan? Ghegide, lol. Chilling too much with Greeks? Simply Gheg would suffice.
 
Nik said:
So you're saying 37,000 Serbs (assuming predominantly I2a-Din even if they're from Kosovo), they gave birth to several million Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Czech, etc?
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There was 37000 families it is between 400000 and 500000 people according to Emile Picot, and this is only one migration.

"Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people. "It is a constant tradition that this population is counted by families, not by heads" also insisting that these were large extended families (see Zadruga)."
 
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