"Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians" paper

[epirus1000]

Yes, the PF7562s found in the actual Palace of Nestor are not ancient proto-Greek speakers, they are proto-Illyrians/Albanians or w/e going to the beach for the summer.

Instead, the Logkas cave females, nowhere near any Mycenean centre with no related archaeology are the proto-Greek speakers.

Haha.


PS. And modern Greeks not carrying many or even any pf7562s is irrelevant. This part of the world was the Eastern Roman Empire for 1000+ years, hardly a shaky case for the ethnos of the Graecorums.

For myself, it is more possible that some people from Yamnaya did stop firstly in Cinamake, Kukes, Albania, a wonderful place where two rivers are joined and beautiful mountains are all over the place. Those people stayed in that area for millenia, even before Myceneans. Nevertheless, few of them went further south to the Peloponnesus, as very frequently proto-Albanians have done during all these 4000 years. You like to say Mycenean people, I like to say Cinamake people, as Cinamake people are at least many centuries before Mycenean ones.
Fast-forward 4500 years, and now still that clade is more frequent in Kosova, North Macedonia and Albania, especially Kukes area. You know why. You still can find those Cinamake people in the actual Bardhoc and Shtiqen in Kukes. Big heads, blonde and blue eyes. The originals!

 

[eupator]

Blondism and the blue sight is mostly foreign to us people of the Mediterranean sea, mate, always have been.

You are preaching to the choir .

 

[Jovialis]

Interestingly, many people who have my haplogroup are also Albanian.

This is what yfull.com gave me:

Y-Haplogroup: R-Y227216*
Terminal SNPs: MF161713 • PF7569 • PH160 • PH1725 • PH2551 • PH3222 • PH3716 • PH678 • Y227207 • Y227216 • Y227276 • Y227325 • Y227358 • Y227363 • Y227374 • Y227402 • Y227441 • Y227508 • Y227783 • Y227834 • Y227836 • Y227951 • Y227961 • Y228059 • Y228122 • Y262506 • Y262507 • Y262508

Regarding my haplogroup, which is about 1025 years old, here was Europe at that time, 1000 AD

I think it is likely, that it came from a Byzantine-citizen originally from the Balkans. Parts of Albania and Apulia were both part of the empire.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Yes, the PF7562s found in the actual Palace of Nestor are not ancient proto-Greek speakers, they are proto-Illyrians/Albanians or w/e going to the beach for the summer.

That's the leader of the Alb project making these wild claims, not me. They are also buddies with the Greek member of the unofficial Greek project like one of the authors that wrote this paper that claims to prove continuity. Illyrians were clearly not R-PF7563.

PS. And modern Greeks not carrying many or even any pf7562s is irrelevant

At this point it's more reasonable to see R-PF7563 as Phrygians who occasionally made incursions to Greece than Greeks that forever vanished with no modern trail.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

For myself, it is more possible that some people from Yamnaya did stop firstly in Cinamake, Kukes, Albania, a wonderful place where two rivers are joined and beautiful mountains are all over the place. Those people stayed in that area for millenia, even before Myceneans. Nevertheless, few of them went further south to the Peloponnesus, as very frequently proto-Albanians have done during all these 4000 years. You like to say Mycenean people, I like to say Cinamake people, as Cinamake people are at least many centuries before Mycenean ones.
Fast-forward 4500 years, and now still that clade is more frequent in Kosova, North Macedonia and Albania, especially Kukes area. You know why. You still can find those Cinamake people in the actual Bardhoc and Shtiqen in Kukes. Big heads, blonde and blue eyes. The originals!

If you want to promote R-PF7563 tourism, I don't know how to break this to you...it already exists, it's called Theth, all the local males are R-PF7563. I don't think foreigners visit Theth to see the blondes though.

 

[Jovialis]

Regarding my haplogroup, which is about 1025 years old, here was Europe at that time, 1000 AD

I think it is likely, that it came from a Byzantine-citizen originally from the Balkans. Parts of Albania and Apulia were both part of the empire.

Here's a different scenario:

What if R-Y227216 is Italian in origin, and the high frequency in Albania comes from Italians fleeing invasions for Byzantium?

It could also come from Albanians fleeing invasions on the other side of the Adriatic too.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Regarding my haplogroup, which is about 1025 years old, here was Europe at that time, 1000 AD

I think it is likely, that it came from a Byzantine-citizen originally from the Balkans. Parts of Albania and Apulia were both part of the empire.

Very interesting. The fact that it was one polity, and given how short the distance is makes this the more likely scenario.
My Y has a similar story but a bit earlier, appearing in Grotta delle Mura, Velika/Mala Gruda and Cinamak. It seems that body of water was always a non factor for human mobility.

---

Regarding the other discussion going on in this thread, keep in mind we are further away to these ancient individuals than to each other, might as well act nice. I am sure these ancient individuals could not care less about 21st century politics and identities.

 

[eupator]

What would be the context of Phrygians inside Mycenean archaeology, a palace no less.

Listen, friends, I understand these 2 Mycenean R1bs are pissing everyone off, both the "unofficial Greek dna project" (lol), which I assume it's merely the anthrogenica gang, since modern Greeks are not shown to have a lot of it (or even at all, in contrast Turks seem to pop up instead), and Albanians (who seem to have much more).

But it is what is, regardless of what the future holds, the current data that we have confirm that there is pf7562 in Mycenean remains, the first recorded Greek speakers, and in a prime archeological location no less.

 

[Hawk]

What would be the context of Phrygians inside Mycenean archaeology, a palace no less.

Listen, friends, I understand these 2 Mycenean R1bs are pissing everyone off, both the "unofficial Greek dna project" (lol), which I assume it's merely the anthrogenica gang, since modern Greeks are not shown to have a lot of it (or even at all, in contrast Turks seem to pop up instead), and Albanians (who seem to have much more).

But it is what is, regardless of what the future holds, the current data that we have confirm that there is pf7562 in Mycenean remains, the first recorded Greek speakers, and in a prime archeological location no less.

I think even among Himera Greeks was found. Definitely somehow related.

 

[epirus1000]

Blondism and the blue sight is mostly foreign to us people of the Mediterranean sea, mate, always have been.

You are preaching to the choir ������.

R1b is mostly spread in Kukes, Mat, Skrapar and Laberia, spreading even the blondism and blue eyes in Albania.

 

[mount123]

What an unnecessary escalation. The explanation of mine and fellow members before were very nuanced with actual data. There is no need to make second hand embarrassment ironic comments that have nothing to do with science.

@epirus1000

Pigment formation and eye color are not tied to parental markers, this is very simplistic thinking. There is still a great deal of research going on in this area of ​​genetics and there are many more factors that are suspected to be behind such as mutations and selections in founder populations. In fact, even the currently used method for determining such features in DNA is not reliable enough.

@eupator

There is a consistent appearance of PF7562+ in ancient Greek contexts, yes, but since we are dealing with a lineage that likely spread with Yamnaya into SE Europe there is no hindering in certain clades contributing to the later Mycenaean ethnos as well as South Central Paleo-Balkan groups. Z9758 and esp. PF7566 incredible diversity and frequency in Albanians (one of the Greek samples is of Arvanite descent FYI) rather speaks of a much likelier birth in the formation of non-Greek Paleo-Balkan groups.

 

[Jovialis]

I have moved all of the off-topic discussion relating to Greeks, and Italians to a more appropriate thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ulations-to-modern-Greeks-and-Italians/page25

Let us get back on the topic of the paper, the origin of Albanians.

 

[broder]

Big heads, blonde and blue eyes. The originals!

Probably due to their elevated Slavic influence. Those traits are quite typical for Slavs.

 

[Excine]

Here's a different scenario:

What if R-Y227216 is Italian in origin, and the high frequency in Albania comes from Italians fleeing invasions for Byzantium?

If you check the upstream clade R-PF7566 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7566/ you'll notice that most parallel clades to R-Y227216 have Albanians, which means that Albanian diversity is much higher than the one in Italy for this clade. This is very strong evidence that the migration didn't occur from Italy but from Albanian areas. The TMRCA may be around 1000 CE but this date doesn't always mean that the migration occurred then. Your ancestor may have left from Albania in the 15th century like many others who went to Italy did. If you've tested with 23andme, it might be useful to check if you have Arbëresh matches.

Overall, it should be kept in mind that based on ancient DNA, R-PF7562 seems to have been in Albania throughout from the EBA and the Illyrian era to today and it seems that from the western Balkans it spread elsewhere. It is possible that in Apulia, some R-PF7562 had already traveled since the MBA with Messapians, Daunians, Peucetians which were groups of Proto-Illyrian origin.

 

[Jovialis]

If you check the upstream clade R-PF7566 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7566/ you'll notice that most parallel clades to R-Y227216 have Albanians, which means that Albanian diversity is much higher than the one in Italy for this clade. This is very strong evidence that the migration didn't occur from Italy but from Albanian areas. The TMRCA may be around 1000 CE but this date doesn't always mean that the migration occurred then. Your ancestor may have left from Albania in the 15th century like many others who went to Italy did. If you've tested with 23andme, it might be useful to check if you have Arbëresh matches.

Overall, it should be kept in mind that based on ancient DNA, R-PF7562 seems to have been in Albania throughout from the EBA and the Illyrian era to today and it seems that from the western Balkans it spread elsewhere. It is possible that in Apulia, some R-PF7562 had already traveled since the MBA with Messapians, Daunians, Peucetians which were groups of Proto-Illyrian origin.

Indeed, I think every one of those senarios are plausible.


My father's town was re-founded with new settlers in the 1200s, it is possible one of the new settlers could have originally come from across the Adriatic as well.


However, you also raise a very important point regarding the possibility of a Bronze Age migration among the Iapygian tribes as well.

 

[Jovialis]

Checked 23andme, turns out I have 16 Albanian as 5th cousins on my father's side, exclusively.


However, I also have 47 Greek matches as 5th cousins too, also almost exclusively on my father's side.

This just got even more interesting.

 

[Olti27]

Checked 23andme, turns out I have 16 Albanian as 5th cousins on my father's side, exclusively.


However, I also have 47 Greek matches as 5th cousins too, also almost exclusively on my father's side.

This just got even more interesting.

so can we albanians also get in the club of una faccia una razza

 

[Riverman]

Checked 23andme, turns out I have 16 Albanian as 5th cousins on my father's side, exclusively.


However, I also have 47 Greek matches as 5th cousins too, also almost exclusively on my father's side.

This just got even more interesting.

Likely you get most matches from distant cousins with segments below 12 cM. These can be very old, but won't be beyond be older than the historical time frame. So a Medieval origin would make sense, which being supported by your TMRCA to the Albanians too. Important is how the matches are distributed, like cover they many different segments or just 1-3 for example. If your Albanian matches are all over your genome, you likely got more recent Albanian ancestry. You could map your shared segments.
And you should check MyHeritage and FTDNA as well, because more Europeans tested there.

 

[Jovialis]

so can we albanians also get in the club of una faccia una razza

I actually said they were in a past post, along with Greeks, in the genetic origins of the Minoans and Myceneans thread.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Likely you get most matches from distant cousins with segments below 12 cM. These can be very old, but won't be beyond be older than the historical time frame. So a Medieval origin would make sense, which being supported by your TMRCA to the Albanians too. Important is how the matches are distributed, like cover they many different segments or just 1-3 for example. If your Albanian matches are all over your genome, you likely got more recent Albanian ancestry. You could map your shared segments.
And you should check MyHeritage and FTDNA as well, because more Europeans tested there.

DNAGenics also has a chromosome browser, that links to ancient samples. Sadly the samples relevant for Jov query are not yet in the database from what I can tell.

I am not sure if this is within the paid service or not, since I hopped in very early on. But definitively my favorite popular genetics company, would highly recommend.

I think in the future an approach such as the above with a full database will help in determining deeper ancestry.