secherbernard
Elite member
- Messages
- 57
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Antony, France
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R-L21
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U6a7a1
Anatole Klyosov has published a very interesting web page about R1b history:http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm
This is a short summary of Anatole thesis:
1) R1a and R1b are both from Alta?
2) 12.000 years ago R1a migrated and arrived in Balkans
3) Between 6.000 and 8.000 years ago R1b migrated westward from Alta? and arrived in the north of Black Sea. This R1b migration produced the cultures of Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya
4) From here, 2 R1b migrations: the first one to Balkans and Italy and brings R1b-ht35 in Europe, the second one to Caucasus, Near East, North Africa and Iberia. Then R1b-ht15 spreads in occidental Europe with Bell Beaker culture.
5) R1a migrated to North Europe and produced the Corded Ware culture, then he went eastward to the Steppe between 5.000 or 4.000 years ago and produced the culture of Andronovo. Then R1a spread to Iran and India.
Anatole Klyosov thinks that R1a spoke proto IE language and R1b spoke proto turkic language. He doesn't agree with Kurgan hypothesis. He sees that R1b migrated from east to west and that R1a migrated from west to east.
I think that Klyosov data and chronology can be understood under the Kurgan hypothesis.
If R1b arrived first in the Steppes during Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya cultures, I think R1b spoke proto IE language. The first migration of R1b to Balkans and Italy can be related with Yamnaya migrations.
When R1b arrived in East Europe, he comes in contact with R1a people (remember that Klyosov thinks R1a are in Balkans before 3.000 BC). From this contact, R1a changed his language and became IE with satem language. R1b kept his centum language.
Then R1a spread to the north of Europe:it is the Corded Ware culture.
From the south-east of Corded Ware, we can see an eastward R1a migration from Corded Ware culture to Sintashta culture, via Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo, Abashevo cultures.
Then from Sintashta culture R1a migrated to south-east in Andronovo culture, and then spread to Iran and India.
I think this R1a and R1b scenario could be in agreement with Klyosov data.
This is a short summary of Anatole thesis:
1) R1a and R1b are both from Alta?
2) 12.000 years ago R1a migrated and arrived in Balkans
3) Between 6.000 and 8.000 years ago R1b migrated westward from Alta? and arrived in the north of Black Sea. This R1b migration produced the cultures of Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya
4) From here, 2 R1b migrations: the first one to Balkans and Italy and brings R1b-ht35 in Europe, the second one to Caucasus, Near East, North Africa and Iberia. Then R1b-ht15 spreads in occidental Europe with Bell Beaker culture.
5) R1a migrated to North Europe and produced the Corded Ware culture, then he went eastward to the Steppe between 5.000 or 4.000 years ago and produced the culture of Andronovo. Then R1a spread to Iran and India.
Anatole Klyosov thinks that R1a spoke proto IE language and R1b spoke proto turkic language. He doesn't agree with Kurgan hypothesis. He sees that R1b migrated from east to west and that R1a migrated from west to east.
I think that Klyosov data and chronology can be understood under the Kurgan hypothesis.
If R1b arrived first in the Steppes during Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya cultures, I think R1b spoke proto IE language. The first migration of R1b to Balkans and Italy can be related with Yamnaya migrations.
When R1b arrived in East Europe, he comes in contact with R1a people (remember that Klyosov thinks R1a are in Balkans before 3.000 BC). From this contact, R1a changed his language and became IE with satem language. R1b kept his centum language.
Then R1a spread to the north of Europe:it is the Corded Ware culture.
From the south-east of Corded Ware, we can see an eastward R1a migration from Corded Ware culture to Sintashta culture, via Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo, Abashevo cultures.
Then from Sintashta culture R1a migrated to south-east in Andronovo culture, and then spread to Iran and India.
I think this R1a and R1b scenario could be in agreement with Klyosov data.