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Thread: E1b in Europe

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    E1b in Europe



    As recently discussed in the thread about Ötzi, the origins of E1b in Europe are - for the greater part - quite mysterious. By it's distribution patterns we might speculated in the past that it is somehow linked to a Neolithic expansion, but since then it has been shown to absent in Neolithic sites.

    One major problem is that E1b reaches considerable frequencies in some parts of Europe (western Iberia, central-northern France and especially the Balkans) which cannot be satisfiably linked to archaeological cultures.

    What is it that we are missing here?

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    The Afrocentric people always have been telling us that the original ancient Greeks were Africans. Maybe they're right and are telling the true that the very first original and native Greeks were E1b folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The Afrocentric people always has been telling us that the original ancient Greeks were Africans. Maybe they’re right and are telling the and that the very first original and native Greeks were E1b folks.
    Here's the problem. It's not just the Greeks. If you look at the distribution we are talking about a wide arc from Iberia to France to the Balkans with fairly high concentrations. I mean, yes, without a doubt E1b came from Africa and then probably spread into the Near East, and from there into Europe. But when and how?

    The idea that E1b is mainly Neolithic is definitely a very good one, but as I mentioned, no sample of E1b in Europe turned up thus far from the Neolithic, so we must speculate that it arrived later, at least in Western and Central Europe.

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    I mean that the ancient Greeks (that were predominantly E1b folks) brought E1b to Europe. Later they mixed with the Northern Europeans (Germanic & Slavic tribes) and the Levantines (J2 people).

    E1b in the Near East is from the Levant. The Levant is close to Africa (Egypt) and Greece...

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    Is "we have no idea and need more ancient samples" too unsatisfying an answer here? I think that the most likely explanation is that E1b was a minority haplogroup within several populations, including the Neolithic farmers. High concentrations in certain places could be the result of expansions of small samples of those populations. It will have to be case-by-case as well, as E-V13 and E-M81 have very different patterns in Europe.

    Ferreira posted some interesting maps (and no, Iberians, I'm not saying I agree with Ferreira on everything about Haplogroup E, just that he posted some interesting maps).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Is "we have no idea and need more ancient samples" too unsatisfying an answer here? I think that the most likely explanation is that E1b was a minority haplogroup within several populations, including the Neolithic farmers. High concentrations in certain places could be the result of expansions of small samples of those populations. It will have to be case-by-case as well, as E-V13 and E-M81 have very different patterns in Europe.
    Well, you have a point. I absolutely also agree that we need to take a close look at the various subclades. Regarding E-M81, given how it has very high concentrations amongst the Berbers in North Africa, one could speculate that it originates from the Moorish period in Iberia. However, we see some of the highest concentrations in northern Iberia - areas which arguably had the least Moorish influence, whereas if this was mainly of Moorish influence we would see the highest concentrations in Andalusia. In addition, we also see fairly high E-M81 in France, which in combination with northern Iberia suggests there must be an older source of E-M81.

    Ferreira posted some interesting maps (and no, Iberians, I'm not saying I agree with Ferreira on everything about Haplogroup E, just that he posted some interesting maps).
    Well, if you mean that you are tired of the discussions about the Africanness or Un-Europeanness of Iberians, I wholheartedly agree that I am tired of those.

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    Haplogroups show ancient migrations, and E subclades are enough old to have reached Europe a very long time ago. I think the vast majority of E subclades that can be found in Europe belonged to African Caucasoids, peoples who were clearly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans. Then, it's not that rare to get into Europe from there via the Near East, and probably they were good saylors too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Is "we have no idea and need more ancient samples" too unsatisfying an answer here? I think that the most likely explanation is that E1b was a minority haplogroup within several populations, including the Neolithic farmers. High concentrations in certain places could be the result of expansions of small samples of those populations. It will have to be case-by-case as well, as E-V13 and E-M81 have very different patterns in Europe.

    Ferreira posted some interesting maps (and no, Iberians, I'm not saying I agree with Ferreira on everything about Haplogroup E, just that he posted some interesting maps).
    I don't think you will find many (reasonable) people on Eupedia agreeing with that guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Haplogroups show ancient migrations, and E subclades are enough old to have reached Europe a very long time ago. I think the vast majority of E subclades that can be found in Europe belonged to African Caucasoids, peoples who were clearly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans. Then, it's not that rare to get into Europe from there via the Near East, and probably they were good saylors too.
    I think it's pretty much consensus that French and northern Iberian E-M81 is somehow ancient. It's quite difficult to pin down the when and how, though. What's most likely? From Anatolia in a wave that predated E-M78's spread? From North Africa during the Neolithic, or maybe the Bronze Age? How distinct is French E-M81 from North African E-M81, do they share an equal amount of diversity, or is French E-M81 apparently a branch off of North African E-M81? Because I can imagine a simultaneous westward migration to both places and subsequent replacement where it originated, but otherwise it's difficult to imagine anything other than a migration straight from North Africa.

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    And the presence of E1b in Europe, people seem to forget about Central Europe, countries like Austria or Switzerland have more E1b than Spain for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    And the presence of E1b in Europe, people seem to forget about Central Europe, countries like Austria or Switzerland have more E1b than Spain for example.
    Where are you taking that from? E1b exceeds 15% in many parts of the Iberian penninsula (especially in the north)!



    I would like to add that I agree on the likely ancientness of E1b, especially in northern Iberia.

    One very peculiar pattern about E1b in general are the "clean-swept" if you will areas in Western Europe that include the Basque Country, the entire French Atlantic region and the British Isles. It should be noted that Haplogroup T largely shows the same pattern, and that there appears to be correlation between E1b and T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Where are you taking that from? E1b exceeds 15% in many parts of the Iberian penninsula (especially in the north).
    Im not talking of specific spot areas, but of overall countries. See the table of Eupedia. Austria or Switzerland have 9% while Spain 7%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    As recently discussed in the thread about Ötzi, the origins of E1b in Europe are - for the greater part - quite mysterious. By it's distribution patterns we might speculated in the past that it is somehow linked to a Neolithic expansion, but since then it has been shown to absent in Neolithic sites.

    One major problem is that E1b reaches considerable frequencies in some parts of Europe (western Iberia, central-northern France and especially the Balkans) which cannot be satisfiably linked to archaeological cultures.

    What is it that we are missing here?

    European Haplozone E-V13 expansion is somewhere in the Aegean Bronze Age.

    E-V13 in Aromuns (Vlachs) has a common est. tmrca to the Roman era, consistent with the idea that they are Balkan natives who became Latinized linguistically at around that era.

    Albanian E-V13 also has a common est. tmrca to Roman/Late antiquity, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity but rather indicates a founder effect during the time of the Romans.

    Finally, Slav-Macedonians with E-V13 have an est. tmrca time well into AD times, at around the time of the first Slavic arrivals in the Balkans. This suggests that E-V13 in them is the result of local founders at around that time who adopted the Slavic language.

    STR variance is higher in Greece, Greek Macedonia, and Apulia, all areas with well-known historical Greek connections.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html

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    For Balkans E1b I would say it is Illyrian ( so as the Messapi in Italy ) , and Peleshet ( they descendants from movings of People From The Sea are Palestinians - Philisteans in Bible ) .
    About arrival time of E1b1b in Europe both via Africa-Iberia - north or via Asia Minor - Balkans - north I would put it in late Neolithe , maybe even early bronze age , especialy in it later stages - from Balkan and Iberia diper in Europe .
    We shouldnt forget one more entry point in Europe and that is Italy by ships in early Neolithe , and later ariving of millions slaves from Syrria , they were especially numerous in Sicilly ,which is showen in several slave revolutions on Sicily.
    Roman empire also had big role in spreain E1b1b in to Europe from south to north

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Where are you taking that from? E1b exceeds 15% in many parts of the Iberian penninsula (especially in the north)!



    I would like to add that I agree on the likely ancientness of E1b, especially in northern Iberia.

    One very peculiar pattern about E1b in general are the "clean-swept" if you will areas in Western Europe that include the Basque Country, the entire French Atlantic region and the British Isles. It should be noted that Haplogroup T largely shows the same pattern, and that there appears to be correlation between E1b and T.

    how much is this E1b, greek . ?
    Theodoros II despot of Morea ( 1407- 1443) brought in 50000 albanians into the Morea in his reign. they even revolted later

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morea_r...3%E2%80%931454

    These numbers represent 40% of the morean population not including the Venetian strongholds.

    40% of albanian E1b will greatly tilt the dna of the area.

    Also, the area in kosovo would be a dardanian haplogroup . Some say they where illyric tribes other scholars say they where mixed with Thracians and not illyrians.

    crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    how much is this E1b, greek . ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup
    The Battaglia study found 19.3% E1b-V13 in Greek Macedonians. In the King study, elaborated on by Myres et al. later on, found 35.1% E1b-V13 in Thessaly (Sesklo-Dimini). On the island of Crete, King et al. found 7% suggesting that the elevated levels of G2 in the mountains may have played a part in containing the spread of E there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The Battaglia study found 19.3% E1b-V13 in Greek Macedonians. In the King study, elaborated on by Myres et al. later on, found 35.1% E1b-V13 in Thessaly (Sesklo-Dimini). On the island of Crete, King et al. found 7% suggesting that the elevated levels of G2 in the mountains may have played a part in containing the spread of E there.
    interesting , G2 played a part in containing the spread. Could G2 contain also the spread of I2a1 from basque are to the alps?

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    there is a lot of study to be made! to explain some messy things

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Haplogroups show ancient migrations, and E subclades are enough old to have reached Europe a very long time ago. I think the vast majority of E subclades that can be found in Europe belonged to African Caucasoids, peoples who were clearly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans. Then, it's not that rare to get into Europe from there via the Near East, and probably they were good saylors too.
    Knovas is onto something here. The entire "E" haplogroup is representative of Caucasoids - or more specifically Eurasians. It's not a negroid haplogroup, since negroids acquired E much later. Haplogroup E, descendent of M168, belongs to Eurasian Adam classification:

    "And the first piece of evidence comes from one man in particular, who had a rather important, random mutation on his Y-chrosome between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. He has been named, rather prosaically, M168.More evocatively, he could be seen as the Eurasian Adam - the great...great-grandfather of every non-African man alive today." Spencer Wells; 2002

    "As we look more carefully at the arrangement of branches on the mitochondrial tree, we find that there is a similar pattern - all of the non-African mitochondrial branches descend from a particular branch of the tree trunk, implying that our M168 Adam was pared with an Eve. Thankfully, this Eurasian Eve lived around 50-60,000 years ago, suggesting that she and Eurasian Adam could have met. She is called by the rather mundane name L3 and her daughters accompanied the sons of M168 on their journey to populate the world. Based on the distribution of the descendants of M168 and L3 in Africa today, it is likekly that they both lived in north-east Africa, in the region of present-day Ethiopia and Sudan." Spencer Wells; 2002


    "the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin." (Chandrasekar; 2007)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    A recent link in thread "I2a how did it get to the balkans", was about E HG in Britain, while reading that link I came across the Thracian Bessi people.
    Further reasearch and knowledge In the veneto, there is a town called Loria which has never exceeded 10000 people in its history , it has 3 Frazione "suburbs" of which one is called Bessica
    Bessica (Bèsega in veneto) è una frazione del Comune di Loria (da cui dista 2,76 km) in Provincia di Treviso. L'omonima parrocchia dipende dalla diocesi di Treviso (vicariato di Castello di Godego).

    historical research says that the whole thracian tribe of the bessi in thrace (Edirne) was uprooted by the Romans in 98AD and moved to Loria to fill the void of the Eugenai ( stoeni and Camuni tribes ) who moved further in the alps replacing the Venosti ( raeti tribe). The Roman information says 1 legion of people ( a legion as far as i know was 5025 souls) moved to the veneto.

    What I want to know is if these thracian carried E1b M-78 markers as it seems this is the main marker of the Veneti in that area.
    This marker is also the same in wales, cornwall and anglia in Britain along with E-V13.

    This Loria area ( western area, treviso province in the veneto ) produced great venetian families, like, Loredan, Zen, Contarin and Da Mosto - whos ancestor discovered west Africa for the Portuguese in 1451 ( first 3 names all where once doges of venice)

    My mother who was born 10k north of Loria always said that the people of Loria had a distinct venetian accent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses II View Post
    Knovas is onto something here. The entire "E" haplogroup is representative of Caucasoids - or more specifically Eurasians. It's not a negroid haplogroup, since negroids acquired E much later. Haplogroup E, descendent of M168, belongs to Eurasian Adam classification:

    "And the first piece of evidence comes from one man in particular, who had a rather important, random mutation on his Y-chrosome between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. He has been named, rather prosaically, M168.More evocatively, he could be seen as the Eurasian Adam - the great...great-grandfather of every non-African man alive today." Spencer Wells; 2002

    "As we look more carefully at the arrangement of branches on the mitochondrial tree, we find that there is a similar pattern - all of the non-African mitochondrial branches descend from a particular branch of the tree trunk, implying that our M168 Adam was pared with an Eve. Thankfully, this Eurasian Eve lived around 50-60,000 years ago, suggesting that she and Eurasian Adam could have met. She is called by the rather mundane name L3 and her daughters accompanied the sons of M168 on their journey to populate the world. Based on the distribution of the descendants of M168 and L3 in Africa today, it is likekly that they both lived in north-east Africa, in the region of present-day Ethiopia and Sudan." Spencer Wells; 2002


    "the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin." (Chandrasekar; 2007)
    In the North African admixture thread has been discussed the later experiment made by Dienekes', showing West Eurasian influence in deep Sub-Saharan populations. It's noticeable that the mentioned populations with higher amounts of E, seem to be more Eurasian than the ones with higher haplogroup A & B frequencies. You can check the thread for details, as well as Dienekes' blog: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012...-africans.html

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    Middle East was the first place where Homo Sapiens from Africa met Neanderthals, his close cousin from Homo Erectus line. One can say that this was the firs mingling place or first adaptation of Sapiens to new climatic and nutritional conditions. Middle East is the place where we should see the first big shifts and haplogroup changes in out of Africa scenario.

  23. #23
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    I think E1b in Balkans is connected with Illyryans but there's one thing that puzzles me.
    Did they come as Neolithic farmers and then retired into Mountains cause of Slavic migrations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    how much is this E1b, greek . ?
    Theodoros II despot of Morea ( 1407- 1443) brought in 50000 albanians into the Morea in his reign. they even revolted later


    These numbers represent 40% of the morean population not including the Venetian strongholds.

    40% of albanian E1b will greatly tilt the dna of the area.

    Also, the area in kosovo would be a dardanian haplogroup . Some say they where illyric tribes other scholars say they where mixed with Thracians and not illyrians.

    crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup
    Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

    Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

    Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.
    Correct the data according Arbanites Clubs are about 60 000 of Attica Spetses Theba Arbanites from 1200 AD about, with 20 000 still speaking Arbanitika

    also Gives about 50 000 Klefto-arbanites mainly in Epirus Thessaly from which still 10 000 speak kleftoarbanitika

    and about 30-40 000 Aromani from Albania in Makedonia (Arbanto-Vlachs) from area of Moschopolis which primary language is Aromani.

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