Mediterranean migration layers in Sicily and southern Italy

[Angela]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xve-RuogSE8

check out Lidia form pula istria in regards to slav/italians

She has an Italian surname, actually, and Italian is her "native" language, or so she claims; it's her husband who had a Croatian surname. So, I suppose she's legitimate enough. He might have been mostly Italian for all I know. My first cousin married a Venetian who can trace his ancestry back 500 years, and his surname ends in "ich". You have to know the people and their history.

Her signature restaurant, Felidia, serves very good northern Italian food, but it is obscenely expensive. I've been there a few times when a client insisted, but never if it's on my dime.

The restaurants her sons have opened are absolutely disgusting, the epitome of tourist rip offs. I never complain in restaurants: if the food is bad I just don't go there again. However, I made an exception for Becco on the West Side. Considering that her son runs it I thought it would be safe to order pasta that had a tomato based sauce on it. I was wrong: the sauce was absolutely tasteless except for the acidity, which was overpowering. I called the waiter over, told him I wouldn't eat it and we wouldn't be paying for it, and if the "chef" and "manager" wanted to know why I'd be happy to tell them. I left the waiter a tip, because of course none of it was his fault, and we left. I left a terrible review on every blog I could find, but to no avail. The stupid Middle America tourists still flock to it and give good reviews.

For any Italians coming to New York, beware: find a blog written by Italians living in New York and use their recommendations. Under no circumstances trust American reviews uncritically.

 

[Pax Augusta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xve-RuogSE8

check out Lidia from pula istria in regards to slav/italians

Her name is Lidia Matticchio, she is Istrian Italian from Pola, but being you confuse Trentini with South Tyroleans, how could you know the difference between Istrian Italians and Slavs?

She has an Italian surname, actually, and Italian is her "native" language, or so she claims; it's her husband who had a Croatian surname.

Actually Bastianich comes from a common Italian surname, Bastiani. Ich was a common suffix among Istrian Italians, the Slavs have usually -ic instead of -ich. His son Joe Bastianich is quite popular in Italy and he speaks a good Italian and he identifies only as Italian.

 

[Sile]

Her name is Lidia Matticchio, she is Istrian Italian from Pola, but being you confuse Trentini with South Tyroleans, how could you know the difference between Istrian Italians and Slavs?





Actually Bastianich comes from a common Italian surname, Bastiani. Ich was a common suffix among Istrian Italians, the Slavs have usually -ic instead of -ich. His son Joe Bastianich is quite popular in Italy and he speaks a good Italian and he identifies only as Italian.

Are you being silly?...........you are the confused one

All south-Tyrol is under Italy ...........and south-tyrol is part of trentino region. Places like Bolzano and Merano are under Italy In South-tyrol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrol%E2%80%93South_Tyrol%E2%80%93Trentino_Euroregion




On the other matter ...Bastiani comes from the christian name Bastian and in italian form it is Sebastiano

 

[davef]

She has an Italian surname, actually, and Italian is her "native" language, or so she claims; it's her husband who had a Croatian surname. So, I suppose she's legitimate enough. He might have been mostly Italian for all I know. My first cousin married a Venetian who can trace his ancestry back 500 years, and his surname ends in "ich". You have to know the people and their history.

Her signature restaurant, Felidia, serves very good northern Italian food, but it is obscenely expensive. I've been there a few times when a client insisted, but never if it's on my dime.

The restaurants her sons have opened are absolutely disgusting, the epitome of tourist rip offs. I never complain in restaurants: if the food is bad I just don't go there again. However, I made an exception for Becco on the West Side. Considering that her son runs it I thought it would be safe to order pasta that had a tomato based sauce on it. I was wrong: the sauce was absolutely tasteless except for the acidity, which was overpowering. I called the waiter over, told him I wouldn't eat it and we wouldn't be paying for it, and if the "chef" and "manager" wanted to know why I'd be happy to tell them. I left the waiter a tip, because of course none of it was his fault, and we left. I left a terrible review on every blog I could find, but to no avail. The stupid Middle America tourists still flock to it and give good reviews.

For any Italians coming to New York, beware: find a blog written by Italians living in New York and use their recommendations. Under no circumstances trust American reviews uncritically.

Oh, I remember her! My dad is a big fan of her's.... every now and then I used to hear her show from another room (he would see em all-Giada's everyday Italian, and other famous italian cooking shows that escape my mind).
He even owns one of her books.

 

[davef]

@Angela
My taste isn't any different from someone from let's say Idaho (likely next to no Italians in that state)...but then again I'm far from a connosciour (can't spell...lol). When given a plate of pasta, my brain says: there's pasta, there's sauce, good enough, let's eat!
Same can be said for dominoes pizza or (anticipating you throwing something at me after reading what comes next)...Olive Garden *ducks, runs for safety* .

 

[Angela]

@Angela
My taste isn't any different from someone from let's say Idaho (likely next to no Italians in that state)...but then again I'm far from a connosciour (can't spell...lol). When given a plate of pasta, my brain says: there's pasta, there's sauce, good enough, let's eat!
Same can be said for dominoes pizza or (anticipating you throwing something at me after reading what comes next)...Olive Garden *ducks, runs for safety* .

Indeed, you'd better run! How could anyone with a drop of Italian blood in their veins eat that junk?

Seriously, don't eat that drek. Not only will it ruin your palate, but it's not healthy either; it's all full of chemicals.

Her cook books are quite good. I have one as well. Or, if you don't have the patience to read them or need to see them done, she has you tube videos as well.

Now, we should get back on topic.

 

[Seanp]

The majority of people living in South Tyrol are of Austrian heritage. I used to work with an Austrian man who collected individual petitions to reopen a discussion on the political borders of Tyrol and possibly make it to the EU court of justice.

 

[Sile]

The majority of people living in South Tyrol are of Austrian heritage. I used to work with an Austrian man who collected individual petitions to reopen a discussion on the political borders of Tyrol and possibly make it to the EU court of justice.

the genetic studies all show that the italians and austrians in this area have the same ancient haplogroups and subclades .............the only difference is the language .......maybe in a hundred years or so , we can call them English as that is what they will be speaking!

 

[Cato]

Gaudo and, especially, Rinaldone are traditionaly associated with Remedello (EEF), and then, afterwards, with newcomers, warrior-shepherds coming from the Balkans (Vucedol, according to Laviosa Zambotti, southern Balkans according to modern-day scholars), while Remedello differed because it had other influences from Western Europe. These newcomers from the Balkans could have been originally from the East Med/Aegean area, but they first settled in the Balkans.



http://data.cnr.it/data/cnr/individuo/prodotto/ID185125

Ok, but why afterwards ? Gaudo and Rinaldone (Remedello appear more autochthonous) are intrusive and different since their beginning from the Italian neolithic cultures. I agree that most of their population was local (EEF), but my guess is that the new brachy types that from the south reached the center of the peninsula were at least in part CHG. Mallegni described the brachy type of Gaudo as "Syrian looking" (unfortunately i have lost the PDF, it was a chapter of this book Dal bronzo al ferro. Sulla possibile origine anatolica degli etruschi).

 

[Jovialis]

Check out this article Dr. Spencer Wells shared yesterday on Facebook. It's in regards to the population of mainland Greece. Apparently, during the Middle ages, there was a genetic divergence that occurred.

The scientists were not expecting to find that the people in the Greek islands appear genetically closer to southern Italians than to the people in continental Greece.
Meanwhile, the mainland Greeks, including the Peloponnese in southern Greece, had become slightly differentiated. They clustered with populations from the southern Balkans, including Kosovo and Albania.

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/1.798089

 

[Angela]

Check out this article Dr. Spencer Wells shared yesterday on Facebook. It's in regards to the population of mainland Greece. Apparently, during the Middle ages, there was a genetic divergence that occurred.

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/1.798089

If they're proven correct by ancient dna, that might mean that the classical Greeks were closer to Island Greeks than to modern mainland Greece, except, perhaps, for people from the southern Peloponnese. I could then add another "I told you so" to my list, and Nordicists would take another hit.

 

[Pax Augusta]

If they're proven correct by ancient dna, that might mean that the classical Greeks were closer to Island Greeks than to modern mainland Greece, except, perhaps, for people from the southern Peloponnese. I could then add another "I told you so" to my list, and Nordicists would take another hit.

That article is citing the Sarno's paper. So as it seems nothing new.

 

[Yetos]

personally I would like to have a statistic result from Aspromonte Italy
to compare it with mainland Greece

 

[Angela]

personally I would like to have a statistic result from Aspromonte Italy
to compare it with mainland Greece

Me too. It's isolated enough that you'd think it would preserve ancient signatures. They'd better get busy and find those 80 and 90 year olds who trace all their ancestry to those areas.

For more detail:
https://peppecaridi2.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/aspromonte2.png

 

[Angela]

Hold on, we have the genomes from there. I must have had a brain freeze.

See Sarno et al:
https://static-content.springer.com...4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_1802_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

They're so isolated and drifted that they really don't cluster with anyone, although the closest is other Southern Italians. It remains to be seen how they compare to ancient Greeks from the mainland. In terms of Calabria, I'd want to see Achaean results from the Peloponnese before the arrival of the Slavs.

Calabria Greca:This is a nice article on the towns.

Galliciano on the edge of the Aspromonte:
http://www.calabriatheotheritaly.com/galliciano-calabria/

 

[Yetos]

Galliciano on the edge of the Aspromonte:
http://www.calabriatheotheritaly.com/galliciano-calabria/

Correct
Galliciano is a move not from antique.
but just before the entrance of Slavs.
it is a clear north mainland Greece, medieval times,
and is before Crusades, and same time with Slavs
a 'devastation' forced to avoid the incoming S Slavs.
from an open almost defenceless valley,
not a closed of fortified mountain

so a comparison of Aspromonte with some mainland Greek specially Makedonia
can give us a idea on how was the genetics of population at East Roman times before the medieval changes,
off course we must notice that it would have Greco-Roman mixed population genetics
and not pure Greek before entrance of Romans

 

[Angela]

Yetos, we cross-posted. See post number 195.

 

[Yetos]

it seems from Figure S7

that Galliciano and Bovista (generally Aspromonte is away from all).

that is odd for me.

 

[Jovialis]

Now the NG breakdown for Greeks makes sense to me. It is reflective of the mainland.

I would suspect a Greek from the islands to have a large southern European component, similar to mine. It also makes more sense as to why Greek is my first reference population. The results they posted as the standard is reflective of the mainland; not the Island Greeks.

 

[Angela]

it seems from Figure S7

that Galliciano and Bovista (generally Aspromonte is away from all).

that is odd for me.

That's what happens when there's so much drift through isolation. When the time comes, I still really want to see a comparison with the Greeks of the Classical Era through the Byzantine Era, anything before the arrival of the Slavic speakers.