Admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean

[Vitruvius]

My opinion is that the cline between Greek Mainlanders and islanders is way older phenomenon than medieval times.

I agree strongly with this. There is already plenty of evidence to suggest high steppe individuals in bronze age Greek society. Coupled with the fact that we now know BA Greece had been experiencing two pulls of admixture (one from steppe rich individuals and one from Anatolia) it seems silly to assume Iron age Greece will end up fully identical from north to south. It's the same type of cline we see in Italy.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I have evidence (internal evidence from the script itself) that those who created Linear B (and thus probably Linear A) were speaking an IE language. Not Greek though. For example 'wheel' could have been something like 'kaklas', 'kakra' etc. Theoretically dialects of Greek had retained the so called 'labiovelars' up to that point, so it is not Greek.

Another word that I have 'reconstructed' based on that approach is 'derma' or 'derna' with a meaning 'throne' or 'seat'. So it is probably not Indo-Aryan either, since most likely there were no 'aspirates' imo, but this would be cognate with Sanskrit dharma, Lithuanian derna etc.

The thing is I would have to do post-graduate studies on something relevant. And it would require many years of work to present something credible.

 

[Vitruvius]

My opinion is that the cline between Greek Mainlanders and islanders is way older phenomenon than medieval times.

Have you seen the BA/IA/Hellenistic Paeonian samples' G25 coordinates? I presume these come from the Southern Arc study. They are labelled on the spreadsheet as "Macedonia" but we are really talking about the borders of modern FYROM/Paeonia and not Greek Macedonia with these samples. Still, they seem to uniformly cluster closest to modern North/Central Italians and Greek Mainlanders.

Macedonia_BA:I7231,0.130897,0.148267,0.012068,-0.023902,0.025235,-0.009203,0.0047,-0.000923,0.008999,0.031709,0.00065,0.005395,-0.011596,-0.001239,-0.016694,-0.000265,0.004433,0.003674,0.008045,-0.01038,-0.018967,0.009398,0.000123,0.000602,0.000239
Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic:I10167,0.113823,0.147252,-0.009428,-0.040052,0.007386,-0.014502,-0.005875,-0.00923,-0.007567,0.000911,0.011367,0.009891,-0.013379,0.006331,0.000814,-0.01896,-0.000261,0,0.009427,0.017133,-0.002121,-0.00272,-0.001602,-0.008073,-0.000838
Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic:I10390,0.129758,0.15436,0.02753,-0.024225,0.028928,-0.005578,-0.00376,-0.005769,0.007567,0.025878,0.003248,0.01139,-0.015758,0.004129,-0.006515,-0.0118,-0.007171,-0.004814,0.001383,-0.015507,-0.00836,0.004946,0.001602,0.006266,-0.004311
Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic:I10391,0.121791,0.159438,0.018102,-0.025517,0.027697,-0.01757,-0.007755,-0.007154,0.010226,0.032074,0,0.007194,-0.007582,0.008945,-0.015336,-0.014054,-0.007432,0.005574,0.009427,-0.01113,-0.014849,0.001855,-0.002835,0.00241,-0.000359

Macedonia_IA:I7233,0.119514,0.158423,0.007165,-0.045866,0.028313,-0.015897,-0.002115,0.002308,0.014317,0.039545,0.006496,0.009591,-0.019921,-0.007982,-0.034202,-0.009679,0.008605,0.003041,0.00817,-0.013256,-0.007487,0.013973,-0.006532,0.002771,-0.005149
Macedonia_IA:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026021,-0.011951,0.034468,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.001154,0.003272,0.023691,0.001624,0.008093,-0.020069,-0.01913,-0.006243,0.009679,0.016168,0.005828,0.003394,-0.007504,0.001123,-0.004204,-0.001109,0.003012,-0.008861
Macedonia_IA:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.024136,-0.029716,0.028313,-0.016176,0.005405,-0.000923,0.000205,0.03426,-0.003573,0.011839,-0.010258,-0.003853,-0.017236,0.0118,0.029597,-0.00038,0.006662,-0.002376,-0.018093,0.000866,-0.001232,0.007109,-0.004311
Macedonia_IA:I10381,0.136588,0.151314,0.026398,-0.030685,0.029852,0.000279,-0.001175,-0.002538,0.008181,0.049022,-0.000325,0,-0.015758,0.003441,-0.0095,-0.006232,0.006389,0.00152,0.004902,0.005002,-0.008859,-0.000495,0.003081,-0.001205,0.013651
Macedonia_IA:I10383,0.12862,0.15436,0.025267,-0.017119,0.032929,-0.010319,0.001175,-0.002308,0.002863,0.036447,-0.006658,0.012289,-0.016799,-0.015551,-0.013843,0.0118,0.024121,0.005701,0.00993,-0.002626,-0.008235,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.006145,-0.003473
Macedonia_IA:I10384,0.125205,0.155376,0.023759,-0.006137,0.022466,-0.001673,-0.000235,0,0.007363,0.025513,0.002598,0.007044,-0.017393,-0.006193,-0.010315,0.003182,0.004694,0.003801,0.003897,-0.016008,-0.013227,-0.00272,-0.007888,0.003133,-0.006706
Macedonia_IA:I10385,0.122929,0.148267,0.024136,-0.006137,0.02185,-0.001394,-0.00141,-0.002538,-0.005113,0.018406,0.009094,0.010041,-0.013379,0.001376,-0.001493,-0.012331,-0.005737,0.003294,0.005279,-0.009379,-0.007986,0.006554,0.001602,0.005422,0.00455
Macedonia_IA:I10387,0.117238,0.160454,0.014331,-0.020026,0.030775,-0.006693,-0.009165,0.001385,-0.000409,0.042643,0.005846,0.006594,-0.025718,-0.008257,-0.018594,-0.004243,-0.007562,0.003167,0.016969,-0.015132,-0.010357,0.009274,-0.002095,0.011568,-0.003233
Macedonia_IA:I10388,0.125205,0.156392,0.018479,-0.017119,0.027697,-0.008925,0.00188,-0.004154,0.005113,0.03098,0.00341,0.009741,-0.012785,-0.005643,-0.014115,-0.002121,0.008214,0.0019,0.004399,-0.012006,-0.010606,0.008656,0.007518,0.007953,-0.005868
Macedonia_IA:I10389,0.125205,0.149283,0.025644,-0.008398,0.016926,-0.011713,0.0047,-0.005307,-0.003068,0.014761,0.012017,-0.000749,-0.011298,-0.016239,-0.008279,0.002519,0.013951,0.009502,0.007416,0.001626,-0.019466,0.024854,0.000493,0.020123,-0.004191

Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic_Avg,0.12179067,0.15368333,0.012068,-0.029931333,0.021337,-0.01255,-0.0057966667,-0.0073843333,0.0034086667,0.019621,0.0048716667,0.0094916667,-0.012239667,0.0064683333,-0.0070123333,-0.014938,-0.0049546667,0.00025333333,0.0067456667,-0.003168,-0.0084433333,0.0013603333,-0.000945,0.000201,-0.001836
Macedonia_IA_Avg,0.1258882,0.1525326,0.0215336,-0.0193154,0.0273589,-0.0084503,-0.000282,-0.0012921,0.0032724,0.0315268,0.0030529,0.0074483,-0.0163378,-0.0078031,-0.013382,0.0004374,0.009844,0.0037374,0.0071018,-0.0071659,-0.0103193,0.0055645,-0.0006532,0.0066031,-0.0023591

 

[Dianatomia]

Have you seen the BA/IA/Hellenistic Paeonian samples' G25 coordinates? I presume these come from the Southern Arc study. They are labelled on the spreadsheet as "Macedonia" but we are really talking about the borders of modern FYROM/Paeonia and not Greek Macedonia with these samples. Still, they seem to uniformly cluster closest to modern North/Central Italians and Greek Mainlanders.

View attachment 15327

As you argued, they are Paeonians and not Macedonians. So why use them as a proxy for Macedonians? They are supposed to be different people.

Geographically Macedonia is located at the Aegean. While Paeonia is inland territory, separated from Macedonia by a mountain range. And when I think of the Aegean, I think of Mycenaean and other later Greek colonies. Not to mention Neolithic pre-Greeks.

These people were attached to the Mediterranean. They were not interested in going to the Balkans.

Still, I find it rather remarkable that Greek Thessaly seems to be closest to them. From the Greeks at least. It’s not too far from Paeonia and probably had less new admixture than Macedonia during the Middle Ages. Thessaly is also not very connected to the Aegean, as the coastline is made up from a mountain range. Thessaly is a Balkanic isolated valley. Coincidentally the Logkas samples from BA Thessaly also had high steppe.

 

[Vitruvius]

As you argued, they are Paeonians and not Macedonians. So why use them as a proxy for Macedonians? They are supposed to be different people.

Geographically Macedonia is located at the Aegean. While Paeonia is inland territory, separated from Macedonia by a mountain range. And when I think of the Aegean, I think of Mycenaean and other later Greek colonies. Not to mention Neolithic pre-Greeks.

Still, I find it rather remarkable that Greek Thessaly seems to be closest to them. From the Greeks at least. It’s not too far from Paeonia and probably had less new admixture than Macedonia during the Middle Ages. Thessaly is also not very connected to the Aegean, as the coastline is made up from a mountain range. Thessaly is a Balkanic isolated valley. Coincidentally the Logkas samples from BA Thessaly also had high steppe.

I don't disagree that they are a different people. I never implied that they weren't. I just find it unlikely that neighboring Balkan IA populations will be genetically very different from one another. They will probably overlap on a descending cline, similar to the nature of the rest of the IA Balkans. From Skourtanioti et al 2023 we already know definitively that the Myceneans were not a static genetic profile, but that they were instead absorbing influences from both Anatolia and the more Northerly Balkans because their EEF component was being continually reduced in favor of Steppe and Caucasian ancestry well into the late bronze age. We have plenty of Mycenaeans from this study that already look quite Paeonian like and cluster with modern northern Italians and Greek Mainlanders, just like Logkas of Thessaly which you astutely pointed out. It's highly doubtful that this is a coincidence.

These people were attached to the Mediterranean. They were not interested in going to the Balkans.

Mainland Greeks already lived in the Balkans, including Macedonians. They were already a part of this genetic cline, even if they didn't closely relate themselves to the Paeonians. Their steppe input is definitive proof of bronze age N. Balkan incursions into Greece, which is already well established. The only thing there is to speculate on is how much or little of it we think different regions of Greece had in different time periods. You seem to think I'm advocating for a paeonian replacement when in reality I don't think there was ever any great genetic divide between Paeonia and Macedonia to begin with. I support the idea of a modern like IA/Hellenistic Macedonia based off of IA Paeonian, IA Albanian and BA Southern Greek high steppe outliers, in tandem with the fact that this profile is dominant in Greece today. Sweeping continuity with the IA balkans (and probably more specifically IA Macedonians and Thessalians) strikes me as extremely probable for these reasons.

 

[Dianatomia]

I don't disagree that they are a different people. I never implied that they weren't. I just find it unlikely that neighboring Balkan IA populations will be genetically very different from one another. They will probably overlap on a descending cline, similar to the nature of the rest of the IA Balkans. From Skourtanioti et al 2023 we already know definitively that the Myceneans were not a static genetic profile, but that they were instead absorbing influences from both Anatolia and the more Northerly Balkans because their EEF component was being continually reduced in favor of Steppe and Caucasian ancestry well into the late bronze age. We have plenty of Mycenaeans from this study that already look quite Paeonian like and cluster with modern northern Italians and Greek Mainlanders, just like Logkas of Thessaly which you astutely pointed out. It's highly doubtful that this is a coincidence.



Mainland Greeks already lived in the Balkans, including Macedonians. They were already a part of this genetic cline, even if they didn't closely relate themselves to the Paeonians. Their steppe input is definitive proof of bronze age N. Balkan incursions into Greece, which is already well established. The only thing there is to speculate on is how much or little of it we think different regions of Greece had in different time periods. You seem to think I'm advocating for a paeonian replacement when in reality I don't think there was ever any great genetic divide between Paeonia and Macedonia to begin with. I support the idea of a modern like IA/Hellenistic Macedonia based off of IA Paeonian, IA Albanian and BA Southern Greek high steppe outliers, in tandem with the fact that this profile is dominant in Greece today. Sweeping continuity with the IA balkans (and probably more specifically IA Macedonians and Thessalians) strikes me as extremely probable for these reasons.

Are Macedonian Slavs taken into consideration in the G25 coordinates you posted? If so, then why did they not make the list? After all, they inhabit the Paeonian region. Not the Italians and Greeks.

So there is a degree of population replacement. Doesn't this also apply to Greek Macedonia? Slavs were there as well.

 

[Vitruvius]

Are Macedonian Slavs taken into consideration in the G25 coordinates you posted? If so, then why did they not make the list? After all, they inhabit the Paeonian region. Not the Italians and Greeks.

So there is a degree of population replacement. Doesn't this also apply to Greek Macedonia? Slavs were there as well.

North Macedonian Slavs are significantly further from the IA Paeonians than Greek Macedonians are. They are significantly more northerly which is predictable as they are a Slavic population, unlike the Greek Macedonians and Paeonians. They didn't make the list because their genetic profile isn't similar enough to include them in the top 25 closest modern populations. They do, however, plot closely to the Northern/CEU like cluster of which colonized Serbia.

Italians cluster close to the Paeonians because Northern Italy's genetic profile was formed from MBA colonizations of the Vatya and Nagyrev cultures of the Carpathian basin. Their genetic profile is effectively a bronze age expansion of a genetic norm found in the northern balkans. What you are seeing is a contrast between populations which were mass colonized by northerners vs those that were not. The Paeonian profile is part of the IA balkan cline, so the fact that modern Macedonian Greeks today plot a little south of this implies a lack of of northerly ancestry more than anything.

 

[Dianatomia]

North Macedonian Slavs are significantly further from the IA Paeonians than Greek Macedonians are. They are significantly more northerly which is predictable as they are a Slavic population, unlike the Greek Macedonians and Paeonians. They didn't make the list because their genetic profile isn't similar enough to include them in the top 25 closest modern populations. They do, however, plot closely to the Northern/CEU like cluster of which colonized Serbia.

Italians cluster close to the Paeonians because Northern Italy's genetic profile was formed from MBA colonizations of the Vatya and Nagyrev cultures of the Carpathian basin. Their genetic profile is effectively a bronze age expansion of a genetic norm found in the northern balkans. What you are seeing is a contrast between populations which were mass colonized by northerners vs those that were not. The Paeonian profile is part of the IA balkan cline, so the fact that modern Macedonian Greeks today plot a little south of this implies a lack of of northerly ancestry more than anything.

And yet, Greek Thessaly is even closer to the Paeonians than the Greek Macedonians who inhabit the neighbouring region of Paeonia. Indicating that there was some Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia as well.

There was probably some Slavic admixture in Thessaly as well. It’s just that the Paeonians probably had more steppe admixture than the Ancient Thessalians. Still, Thessalians are closer to Paeonians than any other Greek people. Even compared to Greek populations with less Slavic admixture.
This can be an indication that the Slavic admixture in Greeks was less than some postulate.

Still, Ancient Macedonians were more Med than Macedonian Greeks today.

 

[Vitruvius]

And yet, Greek Thessaly is even closer to the Paeonians than the Greek Macedonians who inhabit the neighbouring region of Paeonia. Indicating that there was some Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia as well.

There was probably some Slavic admixture in Thessaly as well. It’s just that the Paeonians probably had more steppe admixture than the Ancient Thessalians. Still, Thessalians are closer to Paeonians than any other Greek people. Even compared to Greek populations with less Slavic admixture.
This can be an indication that the Slavic admixture in Greeks was less than some postulate.

The difference of 0.007 is not significant enough to assume a slavic admixture event. That's low enough to simply be the result of having too few of samples to draw from. And remember we are still using paeonian, not greek proper samples. If you are dead set on a slavic admixture/replacement scenario then I suggest simply waiting for a study which shows a massive sum of CEU like samples hybridizing whatever Greece's hellenistic average turns out to be. I don't think we'll ever get anything like that, however. That doesn't seem to be the trajectory that the ancient samples are leading us towards. It appears more likely to me that northern Greeks became demographically dominant in the Peloponnese at some point.

Still, Ancient Macedonians were more Med than Macedonian Greeks today.

I don't see how or why you say this. We don't have any ancient Macedonians so far and their neighbors that we do have all have high steppe.

 

[Dianatomia]

The difference of 0.007 is not significant enough to assume a slavic admixture event. That's low enough to simply be the result of having too few of samples to draw from. And remember we are still using paeonian, not greek proper samples. If you are dead set on a slavic admixture/replacement scenario then I suggest simply waiting for a study which shows a massive sum of CEU like samples hybridizing whatever Greece's hellenistic average turns out to be. I don't think we'll ever get anything like that, however. That doesn't seem to be the trajectory that the ancient samples are leading us towards. It appears more likely to me that northern Greeks became demographically dominant in the Peloponnese at some point.

There has already been severals studies whicy indicate that South Slavs are heavily influenced by Slavic admixture in the Middle Ages. Now Greece is a different story. But I would assume some degree of Slavic admixture was absorbed by Greeks as well. Sure, recent studies are showing that the we have to be modest with our estimations.

I was always a proponent of North Greeks influencing the Mycenaeans. The Greeks have been formed during and after the Iron Age. And their identity was constantly evolving.