African mtDNA and Y-DNA in Iberia

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Read the study in question and you'll see that the authors DO NOT consider it "sub-Saharan". They only consider L1-L2 as such:
"The significant higher number of sub-Saharan African lineages (L1 and L2, Table 2) in MP..." (see pp. 546-547, starting from the fourth paragraph, and also Figure 1, where L3 and sub-Saharan L1-L2 are clearly separated.)
Nope, in your "calculations" you clearly left out that study's results, and counted the others. Go back and read your own posts.
Nope, you did manipulate the data, and therefore your "calculations" are hardly "correct".

Something to keep in mind. Several of the referenced studies also have questions as regards validity of participant samples. It seems that a number of individuals from some regions of Iberia may not have been NATIVE ORIGIN, due to extra-European influences in family history. I would question many Iberian Sub-Saharan DNA results.

 

[Drac]

So, the question is, what is WIKI doing about it?

Nothing. Go and see the article and discussion page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_admixture_in_Europe

For some reason the Afrocentrists/Nordicists/anti-Southern Europeans who took over there have gained some support from other users/administrators (the chief culprit there is "Wapondaponda/Muntuwandi", aided by folks like "Andrew Lancaster".) The user "Small Victory" was one of the few confronting them, but they managed to bar him from the article. At one point he nominated the article as biased, and that it should be erased and redone, but they voted against his proposal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/African_admixture_in_Europe

Wikipedia seems to work in a "strength in numbers" way. As long as more people do not get involved to confront them, the article very likely will continue as is, spreading its manipulations and misinformation quite undisturbed. In fact, it's probably going to get worse, as these assorted charlatans will keep on digging more fishy stuff for their agendas (it's already plagued with obsolete things for population genetics, like HLA genes, immunoglobulin allotypes, sickle cell, etc.)

 

[Wilhelm]

Thanks for the information Drac. The Wikipedia article on african admixture of Europe is all messesd up, all manipulated, with no sources, etc. and of course they only talk about Iberia, and not all Europe.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Looks like some genetics departments of world-class research universities have been informed about the terrible shortcomings of this particular WIKI article. Interesting...

 

[^ lynx ^]

The most funny thing is that the guy who posted that cr*p on the wikipedia, took the data of the MEDIEVAL samples in the TOWN of Priego de Cordoba (8%) and posted it on wikipedia as TODAY'S sub-saharian admixture in the whole PROVINCE of Cordoba.

What kind of moron could do that? I'm thiking about the same kind of guy who would talk about the Max-Planck Institute without knowing anything about it. :grin:

PS: Did you notice that they labelled "Iberia" as a "country", btw?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The most funny thing is that the guy who posted that cr*p on the wikipedia, took the data of the MEDIEVAL samples in the TOWN of Priego de Cordoba (8%) and posted it on wikipedia as TODAY'S sub-saharian admixture in the whole PROVINCE of Cordoba.
What kind of moron could do that? I'm thiking about the same kind of guy who would talk about the Max-Planck Institute without knowing anything about it. :grin:
PS: Did you notice that they labelled "Iberia" as a "country", btw?

Oh yeah, these sociopaths are real scholars... :innocent:

 

[Wilhelm]

I was in wikipedia some years ago, but I was blocked by some nordicist, they are afraid of truth. Wikipedia sucks

 

[Alejandro]

Actually, I created this thread because there was so much interest/discussion about Iberia on the forum lately. It's also because Iberia has very diverse types of E1b1b, unlike most other European countries which have mostly E-V13 and E-M78 from the Balkans.

I was also wondering why a place like Galicia, with no recorded settlement from the Near East or North Africa, should have so much E1b1b. We could imagine a Paleolithic migration for E-M81, but how about the E-M123 from the Middle East ? Unknown Phoenician settlement ? I still do not have the answer.

Im sorry for my bad english, but maybe thats E1b1b ect.. in Galicia and Nortwest of Spain is because in the XV century the population of Granada in the south os Spain, last muslim city in Iberian, was dispersed because they caused problem in violent revelations, Granada was almost entirely repopulated for people from other places.

Sorry again for my bad english.

 

[Alejandro]

The muslims from Granada were moved to the northwest, Castilla and Galicia, away from the east Mediterraneanto not request assistance from the Turks and africans muslims.

 

[Drac]

The muslims from Granada were moved to the northwest, Castilla and Galicia, away from the east Mediterraneanto not request assistance from the Turks and africans muslims.

That "theory" was proposed by Adams et al. to try to justify some of their fishy claims, but it doesn't wash. First of all, the majority of "Moriscos" were just former Iberian Muslims, not people of foreign descent (in other words, most of them weren't really "Moors" to begin with), and second, I don't know about you but I have never heard of any such large-scale movement of them to the North West of Spain. Most people have heard of the large-scale expulsion of them from Spanish soil in 1609 and 1611, though.

 

[Wilhelm]

This theory doesn't stand up. Firstly, because moors in Iberia never reached such population. The moors never reached more than 7% of the population. Secondly, The E-M81 in Galicia or Pasiegos was most certainly introduced since paleolithic times.

The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic language may have been carried either all the way from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition"

 

[serinus]

Hi, I'm new on the forum.

I have a question: There is any study about autosomal sub-saharan DNA in Portugal? I know the mtDNA is high (and that provides plenty "arguments" for nordicists bashing my contry) but I haven't saw any studies about autosomal DNA.

 

[Alejandro]

That "theory" was proposed by Adams et al. to try to justify some of their fishy claims, but it doesn't wash. First of all, the majority of "Moriscos" were just former Iberian Muslims, not people of foreign descent (in other words, most of them weren't really "Moors" to begin with), and second, I don't know about you but I have never heard of any such large-scale movement of them to the North West of Spain. Most people have heard of the large-scale expulsion of them from Spanish soil in 1609 and 1611, though.

The repopulation (new people of diferents places from Spain) of Granada is historically registered, the fear of the spaniard because these muslims could ask for help in North Africa and the Turks empire and starting a new conquest.

I know what only 6-7 % of population of the Iberian population was african and the rest were just religious converts but think what Granada is the last muslims reducts (city,land) in iberian and for 2 centuries, all a lot of muslim or african people, everyone fled (moved) to Granada.

These muslims where separated in relatively small groups throughout the country northwesternt, Galicia and Castilla and intragrated well abandoning their religion and escaped the expulsion od 1609 ect...

Im sorry, I can not explain me better in english I will try in Spanish the same text.

Entiendo que la gran mayoría de granadinos anteriores a 1492 no eran africanos pero no me cabe duda de que el porcentaje era superior al resto de provincias españolas pues los musulmanes fueron escapando poco a poco a esta ciudad confirme iban perdiendo terreno en España, recordemos que Granada además era más grande que en la actualidad.

Tras la conquista y las revueltas de las Alpujarras, las prosas y escritos secretos sobre el guerrero verde de islam que circulaban narrando que vendría a recuperar la península para esta religión y el poder turco en auge el miedo hizo que se movieran a todos los musulmanes de Granada al noroeste, alejados del levante español y del mediterraneo, fueron separados cada cierta distancia en poblaciones de Calicia y Castilla, y bueno no todo pero si una buena parte de esos genes debería encontrarse hoy en día fuera de Granada, en esas zonas.


Recordemos también que los musulmanes hicieron una criba de cristianos en el años 1125 expulsandolos al norte de Africa o exterminandolos debido a que se rebelaron en Granada, o sea menos cristianos viejos y más musulmanes en esa zona.

Im sorry for using my languaje, I say the same as above in english but without mistakes/errors.

Greetings.

​

 

[^ lynx ^]

No hay constancia de lo que escribies Alejandro. De lo que s? hay constancia es de la intensa presencia de los descendientes de los moriscos expulsados de la Peninsula en Marruecos, los enclaves m?s conocidos de estos descendientes son: Chau?n y Tetu?n.

http://www.rtve.es/television/20080411/cronicas-busca-rastro-los-moriscos-marruecos/23691.shtml

Lo del Noroeste de la Peninsula tiene m?s que ver con el hecho de que la expulsi?n de musulmanes/judios de Portugal no fue tan intensa como a este otro lado de la frontera, y eso ha influenciado a las provincias espa?olas colindantes y a Galicia. De todos modos como ya te han dicho, la presencia del haplogrupo E, ya se daba en la Peninsula mucho antes de la invasi?n musulmana, ah? est? el Valle de Pasiegos para atestiguarlo.


PD: Es increible la cantidad de gente nueva que entra a este hilo.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Hi, I'm new on the forum.
I have a question: There is any study about autosomal sub-saharan DNA in Portugal? I know the mtDNA is high (and that provides plenty "arguments" for nordicists bashing my contry) but I haven't saw any studies about autosomal DNA.

Autosomal studies show that the Portuguese cluster near perfectly with Spaniards (hardly a surprise), Northern and Central Italians, French and Swiss.

A good number of the mt-DNA studies on Sub-Saharan frequencies in Portugal, like in Spain, are distorted because of faulty methodology. They are NON-REPRESENTATIVE. Much of the L found in Portugal may not even be clades that are Sub-Saharan, rather, they could well be Asian and extremely old. Little of it has to do with the Atlantic Slave Trade. If you want to see the real miscegenation effects of the trade, go to Liverpool.

These idiot intra-race racists twist the facts to satisfy some sick agenda and are essentially flushing themselves down the toilet with their childish lies. Sound genetic research is wrecking the body of misinformation every day.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

No hay constancia de lo que escribies Alejandro. De lo que s� hay constancia es de la intensa presencia de los descendientes de los moriscos expulsados de la Peninsula en Marruecos, los enclaves m�s conocidos de estos descendientes son: Chau�n y Tetu�n.

http://www.rtve.es/television/20080411/cronicas-busca-rastro-los-moriscos-marruecos/23691.shtml

Lo del Noroeste de la Peninsula tiene m�s que ver con el hecho de que la expulsi�n de musulmanes/judios de Portugal no fue tan intensa como a este otro lado de la frontera, y eso ha influenciado a las provincias espa�olas colindantes y a Galicia. De todos modos como ya te han dicho, la presencia del haplogrupo E, ya se daba en la Peninsula mucho antes de la invasi�n musulmana, ah� est� el Valle de Pasiegos para atestiguarlo.



PD: Es increible la cantidad de gente nueva que entra a este hilo.

Si, es MUY increible!

 

[Alejandro]

[FONT=CG Times (W1)]En octubre de 1 569, se produce una conspiración contra Aben Humeya en Cádiar. Se mezclaron varios motivos: la ambición de Aben Aboo, el enfrentamiento de Aben Humeya con las tropas turcas, el odio de la familia de su mujer (por haber matado el rey morisco a varios de sus miembros) e incluso el móvil de los celos. Aben Humeya descansaba en Laujar de Andarax (al este de Ugijar). Fue asesinado por su primo, quien le sucedió. Fue enterrado allí, pero D. Juan de Austria, al terminar el conflicto, trasladó sus restos a Guadix. El segundo rey morisco empieza bien su reinado al vencer a los cristianos en Orgiva pero, al entrar en combate el hermano de Felipe II, tiene que retirarse a las alturas de la sierra. En estos momentos, los moriscos de Granada y La Vega ya habían sido expulsados a otras provincias. En octubre de 1 570, tan sólo contaba el cabecilla morisco con 300 hombres. Al final es también asesinado y llevado a la capital granadina. Tras ser sofocada la rebelión se procede a la expulsión de los moriscos supervivientes, que han sido calculados en unos 80.000; el destino fue Andalucía occidental, La Mancha y Castilla. Unos pocos millares pudieron permanecer hasta la expulsión general de¡ país, en 1 610, bajo el reinado de Felipe II. Gran parte del territorio de Granada fue devastado. Hubo una repoblación de campesinos de Galicia, León, Asturias y Castilla, en total 12.542 familias que repoblaron 270 lugares, perdiéndose para siempre unos 130 lugares. A partir de estas fechas se va produciendo un retroceso general de la comarca y un fuerte olvido histórico; tan sólo se puede reseñar su participación durante la Guerra Civil española.[/FONT]

I have best texts in history books, but I can not scan this books sorry, you can look for more in google.

Tampoco digo que este sea el origen de ese ADN encontrado por esas zonas, pero supongo no está de más la posibilidad, aunque solo sea por que incrementó el aporte africano en el noroeste.

 

[^ lynx ^]

Repito, el haplogrupo E3b (E1b1) ya ha estado presente en Iberia (y resto de Europa) mucho antes de la invasi?n musulmana de la Pen?nsula Ib?rica.

V?ase como en Gales hay una significativa concentraci?n de este haplogrupo, y que yo sepa los musulmanes no llegaron a Gales y tampoco creo que Felipe III de Espa?a mandara moriscos hacia esas latitudes. Estoy seguro de que parte del E1b1 de Iberia procede de la ?poca de Al-Andalus... pero no todo, especialmente en el Norte (Cantabria, Galicia) donde probablemente la mayor?a date del Neol?tico (especialmente en el caso c?ntabro).

La historia de la Pen?nsula Ib?rica no empez? con la llegada de los musulmanes, ya hab?a mucha gente viviendo aqu?, antes de que llegaran ellos y despu?s de que se fueran.

 

[^ lynx ^]

En este mapa, todav?a se puede ver mejor de lo que estoy hablando.

 

[Wilhelm]

España tiene un nivel bajo-medio de E1b1b comparado con el resto de Europa. Aqui mismo en Eupedia lo puedes mirar.