Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

kingjohn said:
trojet
you might have a point
that part of those j2b might be from
other places than britain
same can apply for the 3-4 e-v13 cases :unsure:



I can't say I expected this, but huge discovery nevertheless. We still don't know for sure from when and where are these two samples, but judging by these results my bet would be Hallstatt & Slovenia (or somewhere very near Slovenia). Y86930 TMRCA is ~800 BC!


I23911; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (3G)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (5T); Z38240- C>T (4C)

Z38241 level: *no calls*

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (4T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)





I24638; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (5G); CTS9215+ C>T (4T-2C)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (7T); Z38240- C>T (2C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (5C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (5T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)




I24882; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930 (xFT115799)

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (7G); CTS9215+ C>T (2T)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (9T); Z38240- C>T (5C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (4C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (9T)

FT115799 level: FT115799- C>A (1C)
Click to expand...


Do you have access to the new Celtic paper samples ? ............of which some of these from slovenia ...see below .........are a mix of Venetic-Illyrian-Pannonian populace ?
 
Riverman said:
We don't know where they are from. If the assignment of the subclades provided is correct, which is not sure yet and doubtful, its just the lineage ended up in Britain.

Based on the similarity maps of ph2ter and their general distance:

I14465 (E-BY4643) would fit into a Veneti context. Interestingly he clusters with the Slovenia IA group, which being dominated by R-U152, which would fit in as well. If his assignment is correct, his lineage ended up in Britain and a related branch in Germanics (Scandinavia), both fairly early.

I18527 (E-Y142743) looks Celtic or generally Central European? Would fit into a scheme of Basarabi-Hallstatt connections for this branch and its related upstream ones, like expected. Too good to be true

The similarity pointed out is correct, its just no proven context yet. If I14465 = E-BY4643 that would big, because it just ended up in Britain. But doesn't have to be. Probably the calls are wrong, I have it from a user on Anthrogenica and others might disagree with his assignment. Autosomally he is closest to Slovenia IA and Veneti people.

What's sure is that both R-U152 and E-V13 made it to Britain, most likely already in the pre-Roman Iron Age. But that's just likely, not proven yet, before the samples context being known.
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a Y-R1b-U152 with autosomals profile IA Slovenian-like in this context smells ideal Italic (of what kind?, proto-Latin or not?) or maybe kind of Etruscan (less sure). It's almost sure Italics stayed around these regions before expanding into Italy, according to old theories.
 
ihype02 said:
I think most Roman samples in Roman Serbia should be of Thracian and Dacian origin according to history. Plenty of E-V13 there.

lviic.png
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Auxiliary troops are one thing; the legionnaires are another. I posted the source of the legions in the Balkans upthread.
 
torzio said:
Do you have access to the new Celtic paper samples ? ............of which some of these from slovenia ...see below .........are a mix of Venetic-Illyrian-Pannonian populace ?
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no
pribislav just posted the calls of some of those j2b from that celtic paper
we will have to wait for the published one
this should be interesting paper for sure ;)



p.s
i now see he anlaysed the bam of I5691 from future celtic paper
and I26726 from future celtic paper:unsure:
you can add those 2 to the 3 j2b posted above who were already anlaysed by him from the same future celtic paper

I5691; J2b2a1a1a-Z597 (xZ2507,FT29034,FGC64029)
Z597 level: Z628+ C>T (4T); Z2516+ G>C (2C)

Z2507 level: Z2507- G>A (3G)

Y146400 level: *no calls*

Y146400>FGC64043 level: *no calls*

Y146400>FGC64043>FT29034 level: FT30027- C>A (2C); FT30903- C>G (1C); FT30997- C>T (1C); FT29034- T>C (1T)

Y146400>FGC64043>Y146401 level: *no calls*

Y146400>FGC64043>Y146401>FGC64029 level: FGC64028- C>A (2C); Y146402/BY46631- C>A (1C); FGC64029- G>C (2G)



I26726; J2b2a1a1a1a1a-Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,Y21878,Z8421)
Z638 level: CTS12554+ T>G (1G)

Z1297 level: Z1298+ C>T (6T)

Z1297>Y27522 level: B440- G>A (4G); Y62812- G>A (2G)

Z1297>Z1295 level: *no calls*

Z1297>Z1295>Y21878 level: Y37818- G>T (3G-1A)

Z2197>Z1295>Z8421 level: Y1421/Z8420- G>A (1G)​




 
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This study argues there’s strong demographic impact on the Iron Age Balkan population ancestors from the Eastern European Slavs, and by the 10th century (Kuline samples) there was substantial mixing but no replacement. This argument supports not necessarily using modern South Slavic samples to compare to Greeks when it comes to determining Slavic input, because any closeness may give the wrong impression that invading Slavs were already Balkan-like. If the same thing happened in Greece as happened in the Balkans per this study, there was extensive admixture with a very different Northeastern European group (Slavs) a few centuries after the initial invasions.

It would seem hard to reconcile these two arguments I’ve seen, that Greeks are heavily northern-shifted because of Slavs, and Greeks are still southern-like because invading Slavs were already more southern-shifted.
 
MOESAN said:
a Y-R1b-U152 with autosomals profile IA Slovenian-like in this context smells ideal Italic (of what kind?, proto-Latin or not?) or maybe kind of Etruscan (less sure). It's almost sure Italics stayed around these regions before expanding into Italy, according to old theories.
Click to expand...

I think R-U152 might be a general Southern Tumulus Culture thing, which being influential in Alpine Celts, Italics and Pannonian-Illyrians as well. These samples from IA Slovenia look rather like coming from a Pannonian-Illyrian context, possibly admixed in the direction of Italics and Veneti, or even Celts. We'll see.
But the Middle Danubian and Southern German Tumulus Culture is what unites different people of the Alpine-Danubian-Pannonian-North Italian sphere. Similarly as did Hallstatt later, just with a more Eastern Thraco-Cimmerian/Daco-Thracian influence on top. In Illyrians proper U152 seems to have played no role, so Veneti and Alpine Celts might be the closest thing overall for that region.
 
Riverman said:
I think R-U152 might be a general Southern Tumulus Culture thing, which being influential in Alpine Celts, Italics and Pannonian-Illyrians as well. These samples from IA Slovenia look rather like coming from a Pannonian-Illyrian context, possibly admixed in the direction of Italics and Veneti, or even Celts. We'll see.
But the Middle Danubian and Southern German Tumulus Culture is what unites different people of the Alpine-Danubian-Pannonian-North Italian sphere. Similarly as did Hallstatt later, just with a more Eastern Thraco-Cimmerian/Daco-Thracian influence on top. In Illyrians proper U152 seems to have played no role, so Veneti and Alpine Celts might be the closest thing overall for that region.
Click to expand...


would it be the R1b-L2 group as the main haplogroup ?
 
torzio said:
would it be the R1b-L2 group as the main haplogroup ?
Click to expand...

We'll have to wait and see. What's clear by now is that J-L283 is connected with Illyrian and E-V13 with Daco-Thracian, that's safe to say imho.
 
Anyone knows in what context and which timeline is this sample from?

HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
 
Hawk said:
Anyone knows in what context and which timeline is this sample from?

HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
Click to expand...

Second this question. It appeared among my closest samples on vahaduo.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Second this question. It appeared among my closest samples on vahaduo.
Click to expand...

At first i thought Chalcolithic sample, but i highly doubt any Chalcolithic sample from Croatia will plot close to us, so i assume this is Classical antiquity sample and that will make him an Illyrian. Let's wait for someone to dismiss or confirm.

Hmm, i just run G25 calculator. He doesn't have WHG, hence why he is plotting close to us. Now i think chances he could be Chalcolithic are slightly higher. This could theoretically be a sample before Bell Beakers brought WHG admixture. I am not too sure though.



Target: HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
Distance: 1.7926% / 0.01792588
65.0Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
30.0Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.8Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
0.8Siberia_Uralic-like_Hunter-Gatherer_RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.4West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG


Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.8012% / 0.02801223
58.8Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
37.4Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
1.0Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
1.0Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
 
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I checked the distance of the sample HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39, he is closest to ZEM39.

ZEM39:ZEM39,0.1161,0.150298,0.021496,-0.025517,0.029544,-0.02008,0.000705,0.001615,0.007363,0.038634,0.003573,0.008992,-0.013528,-0.002752,-0.016965,-0.002387,0.015385,-0.00152,0.001006,0,-0.012478,0.006801,0.00493,0.004097,-0.006227

Where is this ZEM39 sample coming from?

Distance to:HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.01653389ZEM39:ZEM39
0.03105186Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:pRU001.A0101
0.03153227Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03246423HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03364679SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK31
0.03517081ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.03518587HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03561707HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.03564044HRV_MBA:I4332
0.03574774HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03598813Scythian_MDA:scy300
0.03695757ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03713857UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.03715819DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2:NIEcap3c
0.03720181HUN_BA:I7043
0.03776904ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.03813682Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03872257ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
0.03880201GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.03890247Scythian_HUN:DA198
0.03946307SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK13
0.03952542HUN_BA:I7040
0.03961387ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
0.03965203ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.04012710SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK17A
0.04031773VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK536
0.04052687HRV_IA:I3313
0.04062003HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.04295254ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04373449HRV_EBA:I3499
0.04396655SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK27
0.04401643Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979
0.04420679ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
0.04435987ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118
0.04448414ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04455629HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ40
0.04472249HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.04475034ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR969
0.04501235BGR_IA:I5769
0.04505464ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04549764DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.04612859ITA_Etruria_Imperial:ETR001
0.04624985SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK26A
0.04625384Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I2364
0.04645081Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04687460ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1285
0.04708629ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851
0.04717398ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1283
0.04724379IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.04742054Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09538


Distance to:HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.01653389ZEM39:ZEM39
0.02683154Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP114
0.02748019Albanian:AL12
0.02789325Italian_Tuscany:NA20505
0.02843613French_Corsica:CorsicaS13808
0.03076512Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.03105186Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:pRU001.A0101
0.03106742French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
0.03128523French_Corsica:corsica29008
0.03149011French_Corsica:Corsica03708
0.03153227Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03170436Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
0.03171977Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27
0.03201729French_Corsica:Corsica24508
0.03208235Italian_Tuscany:VO109
0.03219116French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
0.03246423HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03254398Italian_Piedmont:piedmont61
0.03313659Italian_Tuscany:VO65
0.03325416Italian_Veneto:ALP116
0.03332461Italian_Tuscany:MURLO114
0.03332742Italian_Umbria:pG04
0.03336098Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian2
0.03357935Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149
0.03364679SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK31
0.03432327Greek_Izmir:GreeceF28k
0.03461829French_Corsica:CorsicaS03308
0.03483480Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01155
0.03507237Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.03517081ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.03518587HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03532771French_Corsica:Corsica19508
0.03534135Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
0.03534884Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43
0.03561707HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.03564044HRV_MBA:I4332
0.03564087Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
0.03574774HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03586994Albanian:AL29
0.03598813Scythian_MDA:scy300
0.03604140Italian_Umbria:pG12
0.03624181Italian_Umbria:pG08
0.03639178Italian_Tuscany:NA20504
0.03640828Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont119
0.03672859Italian_Piedmont:piedmont154
0.03694540Albanian:AL9
0.03694915Italian_Umbria:pG15
0.03695757ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03713857UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.03715819DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2:NIEcap3c

 
More G2a than J2a in Ancient Balkans (expect for Ancient Greece). The bulk of J2a came during the Byzantine and Roman Empire in Balkans or at least a significant proportion.
 
Why would you assume that when we have J2a in Europe in the Neolithic, and our lone Mycenaean is J2a?

Seems very likely that with the spread of Greek civilization north the J2a went with it.
 
Angela said:
Why would you assume that when we have J2a in Europe in the Neolithic, and our lone Mycenaean is J2a?
Click to expand...

Expect for Ancient Greece. And I never said all, just a significant proportion of it. Ancient Greeks were full of J2a.
Seems very likely that with the spread of Greek civilization north the J2a went with it.
Click to expand...
I suppose yes but it should've been shown by the Roman Samples. Let's wait for more samples and see.
 
Let me play the grammar nazi role, you meant except not expect. Hence why Angela didn't understand your post.
 
Hawk said:
Let me play the grammar nazi role, you meant except not expect. Hence why Angela didn't understand your post.
Click to expand...
God knows how many times I have said that word wrong. LOL
 
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Hawk said:
SNIP
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bce said:
Those 2 are the same sample. ZEM39:ZEM39 was directly from the study, HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39 is the newer version published by Reich Lab.
It's a very early Steppe/EEF mix from the Popova Zemlja site. I suppose conected to the Vucedol culture.
Click to expand...

^From user BCE over at Anthrogenica.
 
Archetype0ne said:
^From user BCE over at Anthrogenica.
Click to expand...

So he is probably Late Chalcolithic, i think the similarity must be superficial, because we lack WHG as he does. And slightly similar EEF/Yamnaya admixture will make him plot close to us. This calculators are quite basic, without context they are worthless.

He is very close to an E-V13 sample who is likely from Chalcolithic as well. I don't know whether this sample is from somewhere close to Croatia or slightly more North, but i assume it's from very similar timeline. I assume J2b sample I4998 will plot very close to us as well.

OqwoXU3.png
 
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ihype02 said:
God knows how many times I have said that word wrong. LOL
Click to expand...

All good, i remember some time ago for a reason unbeknownst to me using between instead of by the way until i realized what i am doing lol.
 
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