Immigration Attacks against christians in the islamic world.

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Article is from Spain's El Pais... sorry for those who don't speak spanish.

Acoso a los cristianos en el mundo isl?mico

La sucesi?n de ataques y expulsiones en varios pa?ses desata inquietud

ANDREA RIZZI - Madrid - 10/03/2010
Una banda de pistoleros irrumpi? hoy a media ma?ana en las oficinas de la ONG cristiana de ayuda humanitaria World Vision en Mansehra, un distrito al norte de Islamabad, y abri? fuego sobre los trabajadores que all? se encontraban. Seis de ellos murieron, otros siete resultaron heridos. El suceso es el ?ltimo episodio de una cadena de actos de violencia y de acoso contra cristianos que se suceden desde hace unos meses con una frecuencia inquietante en varios lugares del mundo.

El fin de semana pasado, el Gobierno marroqu? expuls? del pa?s a 26 cristianos, la mayor?a evang?licos, acusados de proselitismo. En las mismas horas, en Nigeria, centenares de cristianos murieron a golpes de pistola y machete de atacantes musulmanes en el ?ltimo estallido de la cr?nica violenta ?tnico-religiosa que afecta al centro del pa?s africano. En la zona de Mosul, en Irak, al menos ocho cristianos fueron asesinados en varias agresiones en febrero. Ya casi no quedan familias de esa fe en Mosul: han huido todos. En Egipto, ocho coptos murieron a tiros al salir de misa un domingo de enero. Incluso en India, que no es un pa?s mayoritariamente musulm?n, se suceden episodios de violencia contra los creyentes en Cristo. El listado podr?a seguir.


Cada una de estas historias tiene su motivaci?n espec?fica, a menudo muy local. El caso nigeriano se diferencia particularmente porque la violencia entre grupos ah? es reciproca. Pero en todos los dem?s hay un denominador com?n: perturbadores indicios de creciente intolerancia y, en algunos casos, persecuci?n. Las cosas parecen ir a peor. As? lo percibe Angela Wu, directora internacional del departamento legal del Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, con sede en Washington y que defiende a creyentes de toda fe.

"Aunque surgi? en Oriente Pr?ximo, el cristianismo est? visto como una influencia extranjera, occidental, en muchos rincones del mundo. Esto se debe en parte al legado del colonialismo. Pero ahora, la situaci?n ha sido exacerbada por las guerras de Irak y Afganist?n y por el episodio de las vi?etas de Mahoma publicadas en Dinamarca. Esta ret?rica afecta cada vez m?s a las minor?as cristiana", comenta Wu, en conversaci?n telef?nica desde EE UU.


En algunos casos, el acoso es gubernamental, en otros, la violencia es ejercida por vecinos. A menudo hay una relaci?n entre los dos factores. Wu destaca c?mo en muchos casos la cada vez m?s agresiva aplicaci?n de las leyes sobre blasfemia y la laxitud de la protecci?n de las minor?as desata una espiral perversa.
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El Pais
 
Anyone with a deep knowledge about Islam will not be in the least bit surprised at this. With the Koran containing lines such as “do not take Christians and Jews to be your friend” and the Hadith reporting all forms of terrorism and treaty breaking it is inevitable.

Then there is the Islamic “tolerance” of Christians and Jews, especially as such tolerance is dependent on Christian and Jewish people obeying Shar’ia, paying an additional “tax” to the mosque, and at all times being and feeling subjugated under Islam.

Still, it’s better than what happens to those who have other religious beliefs, their choice is stark. Convert to Islam or die.

Even the word tolerance is offensive, especially when Christians especially don’t “tolerate” Muslims, they welcome them as equals.

There is something very disturbing taking place in the world and it is being allowed to happen because so many movers and shakers simply don’t understand Islam, think of it as being “Just another Religion”. In so doing they entirely miss the point that it is an ideology that is poles apart from that which we accept in the West and moreover is absolutely incompatible with our values our life choices, our freedoms, and our ambitions.

Islam is fine in its place, there is no reason why we should not engage with Islamic countries as neighbours, or that we should think ever Muslim we meet is hell bent on progressing Dar ul-Islam into our Dar ul-Haarb lands.

Most are just plain decent guys trying to get by like the rest of us, just as most Germans were just plain decent guys trying to get by in the post Weimar republic period in Germany.

But just as we did not suck up to Nazism and welcome it into our countries then, nor should we be doing the same to Islam today.
 
Practical Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in a nutshell.

Says the Jewish person “I will die for my beliefs.” And millions have and will continue to do so..

Says the Christian “I will die for my beliefs and in support of yours.” And millions have and will continue to do so.

Says the Mohammedan person “YOU will die for my beliefs.” And millions have and will continue to do so.

Says the Jewish person “you may join my religion, but I will make it very hard for you to do so”.

Says the Christian person “I invite you to join my religion and I will make you welcome as a brother”

Says the Mohammedan person “I will MAKE you convert to my religion and I will either kill you or dominate you in every way if you refuse”.
 
Yes, you will become a believer or you will be killed or become a slave...
 
I think that there are many different reasons for violence against Christians world wide, none of them good really, but many of these incidents are evangelical missionaries proselytizing. Often Americans. This happened in Palestine as well. I don't defend violence and murder, but frankly, if Muslims came to Utah trying to convert Christians to Islam, you would see a reaction to that. The evangelical mission agenda is a Christan screw loose.
 
Michael Folkesson said:
I think that there are many different reasons for violence against Christians world wide, none of them good really, but many of these incidents are evangelical missionaries proselytizing. Often Americans. This happened in Palestine as well. I don't defend violence and murder, but frankly, if Muslims came to Utah trying to convert Christians to Islam, you would see a reaction to that. The evangelical mission agenda is a Christan screw loose.
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Michael, you really don't understand Islam.
 
Michael, in case you didn't notice, many recent wanna be suicide terrorists or fully fledged are Islam converts from USA.
 
I don't read Spanish, but I get the general jist of the post and it mentions the violence in Nigeria. The violence in Nigeria is also caused by christians attacking muslims. This is a tit-for-tat exchange going on here, and has been for a while. This latest one was a revenge attack for one that christian villagers had done a few weeks before.. It seems that the local arch bishop thinks it is more to do with land onwership and mineral rights than actual religious strife. See here.

As for missionaries trying to convert in a predominately islamic country, well, what do they expect. Apostasy is punishable by death in islam, and that particular rule is a bit more enforced within islamic countries, and that is essentially what missionaries are trying to encourage. I also think that Michael does have a point about what would happen to islamic preachers if they tried to pull the same stunt in the bible belt in the US. In some of the small communities in the US they are very christian and I know of several atheists on other sites who live in such places that have to keep their lack of beliefs quiet because the fear violence directed at them.

@Gwyllgi: Why do you use the term Mohammadan instead of Muslim? It seems to have dropped out of general use in the 1960s and a few muslims do find the term offensive.
 
LeBrok
What in the world does that have to do with the questionable evangelical missioning in the heart of fundamentalist Muslim country?

Mycernius
Courtesy google →El Pais
 
Fundamental difference. Christian missionaries don't preach hatred again other religions. Many Muslim clerics do, and the most attention in fighting terrorism should be directed at clerics and Muslim schools indoctrinating youths in jihad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/world/asia/18pstan.html

Makes you think about immigration polices.
Other interesting links inside this article.
 
LeBrok said:
Fundamental difference. Christian missionaries don't preach hatred again other religions.
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Wish to put money on that?
I used to belong to a forum where one of the members was an evangelical preacher living in Guatamala. Whilst I was on he repeatedly called muslims followers of satan and children of satan, Roman catholics as deluded and will be punished for not following the true message of christ (whatever the hell that is?) and saved his particular vitrol against atheists. Several times I was told I was going to burn in hell, I was a demon, possessed, full of hatred (ironic, eh?) and various other insults leveled at atheists, although never went as far as calling me a baby eating atheist. He wasn't the only one on that site with that mindset. The odd thing is then when you said what he preached was hateful and intolerant he would deny it and say he was only speaking the truth. The truth was that he was an intolerant bigot who was one step away from the kool-aid, which I mentioned, several times.
Evangelical christians are as intolerant and hateful as muslim preachers, only they are better at covering it up.
 
lol, I won't bet on it, and sure you will find few, among Christian clergy, that hate Muslims or other none Christians and calling them names from ambones. But among them you will find almost none calling to crusades and killing nonchristians, at least in public. Most likely they are occupied on courting boys in their parishes, lol.

In Muslim world you will find thousands of amans calling Muslims to jihad against nonbelievers, and all the terrorist attacks are fruits of their work. And that's the difference.
In most cases the bottom line is not in the problem itself, but in scale of the problem.

I'll give you other example how it works.
Take corruption for example. Corruption is ubiquities, it exists in every country on earth. It's in Sweden, one of less corrupted countries. It's not a big problem there, it doesn’t interfere much in economy or politics, country is fine and vibrant.
Take Nigeria now, they have corruption there too, but it's so rampant that it paralyzes economy and government, and the country can't get out of the big mess. Surely there are other causes of Nigeria misfortune but corruption is one of the biggest reasons.
In Sweden you could have a long life and never got in touch with corruption. In Nigeria there isn't a week you wouldn't have to bribe someone, pay under table, use illegal business practices just to survive.

The real problem is the scale of a problem.
 
LeBrok said:
Michael, in case you didn't notice, many recent wanna be suicide terrorists or fully fledged are Islam converts from USA.
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Not suicide, homicide.

They see themselves, or are persuaded by other members of their cult to see themselves, as offering themselves as martyrs, and it being the will of their God if they are accepted as such, or survive the attack.

Likewise the matter of deaths of fellow Mohammedans in such attacks is explained as either their God accepting those innocent as martyrs in their own right, or because they were where they should not have been and so were “in error” and “their blood (is on) their own hands”.

To understand why these people do what they do is not easy for a non-Islamic person.

Islam teaches that there are two “houses”, but collection of tribes is a better interpretation of the word, in the world.

These are Dar ul-Islam, the “house” of Islam, and Dar ul-Haarb, the “house of conflict”, and the translation of “haarb’ into conflict is also imprecise and incomplete. It can range from war through to confusion and error.

A person living in one “house” is extremely unlikely to understand the way of thinking let alone the way of acting of a person living in the other. The very perception of life, the universe, everything, is different.

(To be pedantic there are other “houses” between the two but in all cases these are interim conditions with the intent by the votaries of Islam at all times being to move to Dar ul-Islam.)
 
Islam does not produce much violence and fighting unlawfully

Islam is a religion of peace

And Muslims disown from those who are killing people

I hope you will examine you well on Islam
For ye ye a bad idea about Islam because of what happened on September 11
 
Frankly, I have no use for ANY conventional religion...
 
Truth be out, do try to get my reply translated into Arabic for you.

Let’s examine those statements.

Islam does not produce much violence and fighting unlawfully.

Let’s first look at the word “much” in that statement. For a “religion” to produce ANY violence is wrong.

For people to “produce” violence is part of being human, for people to “produce” violence in promotion of their religion is common even when, as in the case of Christianity, their religion expressly forbids it, people do.

But Islam actually demands violence Interestingly when the Sura are assembled in time order as Mohammed grew older (and Islam become much more dominant) so the use of violence was increasingly mandated with the excuse that Mohammed had been instructed “new things” when in reality he had simply secured his position and no longer needed to “feed the people milk”.

Now the word “unlawfully”.

Whose law? Certainly MY law does not call for the “striking off of a hand for theft” and the punishment for adultery isn’t to be stoned to death. In addition the requirement placed on Mohammedans to obey the law of the land if not in Dar ul-Islam is a temporary injunction lasting only until they have secured their position and can then go THEIR way.

Likewise shar’ia itself. That is much more about trends of behaviour than simply doing or not doing and results in the excuse for attacks on civilians and more besides.

No, Truth be told, your “dog won’t hunt” with that claim.

Next Islam is a religion of peace.

But what IS peace? And what are the boundaries where this peace is achieved?

There certainly is peace within an Islamic society, peace imposed by brutal punishment on those who do not follow shar’ia.

But that peace that makes the lion lie down with the lamb is the same peace that achieves the same thing in a zoo. It is the peace of the utterly subjugated, the peace of The Potters Field.

And Muslims disown from those who are killing people.

Killing? What about “righteous killing”, the “striking of his head from his body”? Or the killing of enemies”?

I hope you will examine you well on Islam

I am an old man. I’ve studied Judaism, Christianity, and Islam for over forty years of my life. I was once an ordained minister until I rejected all forms of theism.

I understand Islam VERY well.

For ye ye a bad idea about Islam because of what happened on September 11

The brutality and inhumanity of 9/11 was simply one of many acts of brutality and inhumanity that has been perpetrated by people following the blasphemous and heretical instructions and directions of a man.

A man who saw an opportunity to exploit the savagery around him by formalizing savagery in a way that would act as a common factor in bringing together warring tribes under one common set of rules.

Islam is the demand for people to submit to the instructions of this set of rules and directions, done in such a way as to be absolute blasphemy, and by all people submitting to the same thing the reason for inter tribal (end even internecine) warfare being eliminated.

Islam achieved its aims then, and in the uncivilized parts of the world it is achieving its aims today, but it has no place in our world, a world that has evolved.

Evolved socially and technically, and in fact in every way from the brutality of the middle east of 1300 years ago.

If people from the world of Islam want to live in our world they must not only travel, they must reset their watches and clocks 1300 years forwards, much as all must reset our watches and clocks as we cross conventional time zones.

The only problem is that Mohammedans can’t because Mohammed by his blasphemous claim that what he invented was the word of his God implied that as such it must be perfect and so would not need to change, and that Mohammed was the last prophet before the End Times so precluding anyone putting his evil influence aside.

No, Truth be told, when the truth IS told, especially when it is supported by facts on the ground over the last 1300 years, a very different picture emerges than the one that you present.
 
Gwyllgi

The Qur'an's suwar are arranged according to decreasing length. Sure, they were produced in time order because - as we know - time is linear. They were collected into a book after Muhammad's death.

Truth Be Told

I hope you will examine you well on Islam
For ye ye a bad idea about Islam because of what happened on September 11
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Man, what are you on about? First you say that Islam is the way of peace, and then it seems as if you are saying that if you mess with Muslims you get September 11. Well, if people pull stuff like that you get the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. If god is behind this, it is the will of god that the people of Afghanistan and Iraq should suffer. If all is in the will of god, no human can do anything wrong whatever they do. So can the holocaust be excused as the will of god.

And about your creationist youtube videos. We don't know everything. There is likely an immense amount of things we are oblivious of. But we know how the stars were formed, and we know it doesn't need a god. For the concept of chance - as is called "accident" in your link - if you have a lottery, one of the drawn numbers is a winner. It is a matter of chance that this person would win, but it's not a matter of chance that there would be a winner. All the ones that didn't win will disappear. It was a matter of chance that they would lose as well. It is not an act of god. Life on Earth was inevitable. When conditions are roughly right - which they obviously were - and have enough time on it's hands, some form of life will emerge. A few years ago, we had no knowledge of other planets in the universe than the ones circling the sun. Now, we find new planet system every second day. There are so many, we might never know how many. It is unlikely that life is unique to our solar system. It's unlikely that the conditions on the primordial Earth is unique in the universe. Nothing else is unique, why would this be? Our minds have difficulty to comprehend time, space and the size of things as we compare everything we know to the world around us everyday. Just because we have difficulties with that, doesn't mean we can explain that by divinity. Allahu akhbar, means just that; "I don't understand."

And sure there might be such a thing as a soul - it's unlikely there is - but we cannot prove there isn't. There is an endless amount of things one can claim which cannot be proved. I can make the claim that you "once raped and killed a girl in 1990". The burden of proof must be on the one who makes such a claim, as the burden of proof must be on people who claim divinity as an explanation of matters of scientific value, such as astronomy, geology, physics, biology and abiogenesis. As you seem very young, and probably is in search of an identity, I understand how you fail to separate faith from the secular world. If you educate yourself, you will have the opportunity to learn to separate faith from knowledge. I know a fair amount of Muslims who do that. One can still be a Muslim and acknowledge indisputable scientific fact. But I suspect you will not go out and test your claims against collected human knowledge we've fought so hard through the ages to gather. You are likely comfortable with the world view you like and approve of, and hesitate to expose it to reality. You are the kind of Muslim that holds your country back. It's not the west's fault, and not entirely your governments. It's people like you.

And I sincerely hope you take the time to improve your English. Why? It's not the language of my people either, but it's the main world language. It belongs to you too. Make yourself understood.
 
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