Politics Balkanian disagreements.

[Piro Ilir]

You seem not to distinguish "allies' among other things,some of the Brankovic dynasty indeed fought some battles on their side,why was that cause Hungarians looted his wealth and try to siege control over entire Serbia with the Crusades and papacy,Serbia at that time was despotate enjoying at least some freedom,which could loose it along their culture,some other lords of Serb descend fought on other side,so it's hypothetical,French were "allies" of Ottomans bound by treaty ever since Sultan Suleiman.Britain,French fought against Russia with the Ottomans when Russian empire almost annihilate them and gave rise and help to modern Turkey,in which Crimean war we provided soldiers for the Russians.Germans with Ottomans,numerous other examples.Serbs,Bulgars,Greeks expelled them from Europe in the Balkan wars,while not all were happy about it,speacialy not you Albanians at that time,Byzantines brought them in Europe for first time they step foot in Thrace with their help as "allies" perhaps,everything is hypothetical regardless situation,but you can repeat this over and over if make you happy.Ottomans were empire like any other only with Muslim customs and law nothing weird there,Serbs at least fought battles alone and on Kosovo killed their Sultan,which stop their expansion for a while,but we lacked soldiers unlike Muslims they had them many in Mid East and Anatolia,Kosovo battle which triggered the fall of Serbia; Tactically inconclusive,Mutual heavy losses—devastating for the less numerous Serbs,Casualties and losses,Ottomans;Sultan Murad I and most of the troops.Serbs;Prince Lazar and most of the troops,
Strategic Ottoman victory,among many other Serbo-Turkish wars.

The only reason for which the Albanians were sad was that Serbia and Greece invaded their territory where they were living. Why they would care about the ottomans. They destroyed Albania, and sold their ethnic territory when it was in their interests.

 

[Yetos]

The only reason for which the Albanians were sad was that Serbia and Greece invaded their territory where they were living. Why they would care about the ottomans. They destroyed Albania, and sold their ethnic territory when it was in their interests.

and as you left last the Ottoman empire,
now you want to restore it,
but Big Kossova is coming, ahahahaha

 

[Ike]

What about the massacre of Recak. Or it was a media's fabrication?!

The killings were not a fabrication, but we still have no knowledge of who conducted them. Facts stand that:



1. Serbs themselves called for journalists to monitor the operation in Racak

"If the Serbs had been planning a bloody massacre that day, why had they issued a press release in Pristina that morning, inviting journalists to come to Racak to cover the police operation?"
https://theremustbejustice.wordpres...-to-racak-was-renamed-to-william-walker-road/



2. William Walker suppressing the pretext

"These internal KVM documents also showed that William Walker tried to suppress reports that the KLA had kidnapped MUP and VJ personnel serving in the Racak area. The documents showed that Walker was furious at the KVM staff when word reached Washington that the kidnappings had occurred."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-19...een-planning-to-fabricate-serbian-crimes/1836



3. There was no bodies at the beginning

The pathologists found only six bodies had suffered a single gunshot wound, with most being covered in multiple wounds. The trajectories showed the bullets coming from many different angles and elevations. Very few of the dead appeared to have been shot at close range. And in contrast to the claims by Walker, no evidence of deliberate disfigurement of the bodies was found.
These findings would tend to support those eyewitnesses who reported that there had been violent clashes between Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) forces and Serbian units near Racak the day before the bodies were found, and that the dead may have been killed in this firefight. OSCE observers and journalists who visited the village immediately after the fighting did not report finding any signs of a massacre and the 40 bodies were only discovered some 12 hours later.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/02/yugo-f12.html




4. Bodies were tempered with

As seen here on the photos, Albanian white cap was added later (warning - explicit photos):
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/pv020703.htm



5. William Walker pressuring forensics to alter the report

“she further explained Walker insisted she should tell the media that Serbs have committed a massacre in the village of Racak, and that the killed were not combatants, but “innocent civilians”.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=3451

“What angered him most was that I refused to use the word massacre and say who stood behind what happened in Račak. He was terribly angry about that. He threw a pencil at me,“ Ranta recalls.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=23&nav_id=54430


"In October 2008, Helena Ranta, the Finnish pathologist who had conducted the forensic examination on the Račak casualties, stated that she had been pressured to modify the contents of her report, both by the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and by William Walker, the head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Kosovo Verification Mission, in order to make more explicit the role of Yugoslav troops in the incident. She refused to do so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Račak_massacre#Forensic_reports





From all this we can conclude the William Walker, who was OSCE chief in Kosovo is a manipulant and cannot be trusted. He tempered with the evidence and investigation and I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in Racak, and who killed those men. I'm not saying that Serbians didn't do it for sure, but everything suggest that it was a CIA hoax.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Blah Blah Blah

Albanian Propaganda, BUT

Big Kossova is coming,
then you will say different things, and change your avatar,

time to drop your mask

What big kosova? It's time for you to tell us . You are making all the time conspiracy stories. And what avatar I am suppose to put there according to you?

 

[Piro Ilir]

If you start with the idea that E-V13 was the major Illyrian marker, and you see the current distribution of E-V13 it looks like there had to be a major Illyrian migration that must have been mentioned by Byzantine historians.


I've already explained, but you seem not to understand what I'm saying.



Really, completely wrong? OK. Call it what you like, as long as we all know we talk about the same thing.

View attachment 7402




They probably couldn't have evolved from E-V13 because E-V13 was non-IE, unlike Albanians. E-V13 entered Albanian gene pool as an outsider. What was it before - Pelasgian, Illyrian, Thracian, Dorian, Slavic, etc, will be determined in the future, hopefully.

You are missing everything. Yllirians were formed on the Balkans from the mix of locals who probably were not IE (ev13 ,J2b, G2,I2) . R1 came throughout Balkans with the IE migration. IE plus locals formed the illyrians. People evolve. Albanian and Serbs are both IE, but proto Albanians came to Balkans earlier then the proto Serbs, hence Albanians have more pre- IE DNA. Who has more pre IE DNA indicates the time of settling on Balkans.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Off course it was not only Serbian territory.

The problem, from the very beginning is that Serbians were by far most numerous ethnicity inside Yugoslavia. In 1943. communists divided the majority of Serb population into 4 republics (and latter added 2 autonomous regions). There are stories that the whole idea behind that was to disunite Serb population, so that new state wouldn't be Serb dominated like Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was. Disregarding motives and if they are true, Serbs ended ethnically divided into many administrative zones. When the Warsaw pact and Soviet Union dissolved, the power balance between East and West (on which Yugoslavia relied) was gone. Some nationalities (Slovenes and Croats for start) started questioning their position, and new parties claimed that they would be better off outside Yugoslavia. On the other hand, Serbs would also be better off outside Yugoslavia, but they were in a stupid position, because if Republic of Serbia separated from Yugoslavia, there would still be a large part of Serbs left inside Yugoslavia. So, Serbia had no national interest to secede from Yugoslavia. That was the main reason why moderate Serbian politicians were favouring Yugoslavia.

Considering Bosnia, if you look at the war maps, you can see that in a small amount of time since the war broke out, the front lines were cemented and the didn't move much until the end of the war. These are the mapes from 1992:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Map_of_war_in_Yugoslavia,_1992.png

And this is the ethnic structure of the region:
http://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

You see that they correlate very well with one another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoWem9Nvsc


So, if you think there was an aggressive war here, it wasn't. Nobody did conquer much of the "enemy" territory during the whole Yugoslav war. It was just a stalemate, going nowhere from the beginning. Croats and Bosniaks had no power to do it, and Serbs had no interest in Croat and Bosniak territory. Once only peasants (unlike Muslim craftsmen, merchants, officials, penman, etc) Serbs (who were ~40% of population) had in their legal possession <60% of Bosnian territory, while Muslims were mostly populating urban areas. That's why Serbs were pretty much satisfied with what they had even before the was started.

The whole Serbian idea was that Croats and Bosniaks can secede from Yugoslavia, but they cannot drag Serbians with them. If they want to secede they can do it democratically, and they can secede Croatian and Bosniak people, but they cannot secede administrative zones of Socialistic Republic of Croatia and Socialistic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the other hand Croats and Bosniaks wanted to secede Croatia and Bosnia because that way they'd be getting more than they deserve. And that's how the war broke out. Western countries didn't do any good. They talked Bosnians 2 times into not accepting peace plans, as I've already posted somewhere.

First time in 1992. for Carrington-Cutiliero plan:

"On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_...Cutileiro_plan


Second time in 1995, when Owen-Stoltenberg plan was in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuh...youtu.be&t=25m


Badinter commission concluded they they recognize the borders of republics as state borders. That literally means that they gave advantage to some map lines that 7 communists have drawn in the middle of the winter of 1943. in some Bosnian hut, over democracy and will of the people. The decisions of that commission were illegitimate, illegal, contrary to Yugoslav constitution and international law.







They didn't want to cleanse it. If anything, the number of Albanians only rose during while Kosovo was under Serbian government. From ~500.000 in 1948. to ~1.600.000 in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups


Some claim that Serbians started ethnic cleansing during the NATO bombing. Serbians themselves claim, that Albanians fled from NATO bombing, for which they have some arguments in the fact that not a small number of Albanians looked for salvation in other parts of Yugoslavia controlled by Serbian army. Nevertheless, ethnic cleansing definitely started after the NATO's war to stop ethnic cleansing.

This is the report of OSCE observer who was on Kosovo:
"With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province."
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm


This is what lord Carrington says:
"Nato bombing of Serbia caused, rather than prevented, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, the organisation's former secretary general, Lord Carrington, said today.The bombing "made things very much worse" and the European Union had made "catastrophically stupid decisions" in its dealings with the former Yugoslavia, he added."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/aug/27/balkans

No you are wrong,and you know it. Yugoslavia was governed by Tito. He was a Croat. Afterwards his death the Serbs started to take the power. Which means that kosova was ruled non by the Serbs. When the Serbs took the power over Yugoslavia they omitted the human rights and the self governing of inhabitants of kosova. Serbs were the reason why Yugoslavia dissolve. During the time of Tito the Albanians were ok.

 

[Piro Ilir]

and as you left last the Ottoman empire,
now you want to restore it,
but Big Kossova is coming, ahahahaha

Why they want to restore it? It's not any profit from what you are saying. And Greece is behaving as the Byzantine empire.

 

[Piro Ilir]

The killings were not a fabrication, but we still have no knowledge of who conducted them. Facts stand that:



1. Serbs themselves called for journalists to monitor the operation in Racak

"If the Serbs had been planning a bloody massacre that day, why had they issued a press release in Pristina that morning, inviting journalists to come to Racak to cover the police operation?"
https://theremustbejustice.wordpres...-to-racak-was-renamed-to-william-walker-road/



2. William Walker suppressing the pretext

"These internal KVM documents also showed that William Walker tried to suppress reports that the KLA had kidnapped MUP and VJ personnel serving in the Racak area. The documents showed that Walker was furious at the KVM staff when word reached Washington that the kidnappings had occurred."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-19...een-planning-to-fabricate-serbian-crimes/1836



3. There was no bodies at the beginning

The pathologists found only six bodies had suffered a single gunshot wound, with most being covered in multiple wounds. The trajectories showed the bullets coming from many different angles and elevations. Very few of the dead appeared to have been shot at close range. And in contrast to the claims by Walker, no evidence of deliberate disfigurement of the bodies was found.
These findings would tend to support those eyewitnesses who reported that there had been violent clashes between Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) forces and Serbian units near Racak the day before the bodies were found, and that the dead may have been killed in this firefight. OSCE observers and journalists who visited the village immediately after the fighting did not report finding any signs of a massacre and the 40 bodies were only discovered some 12 hours later.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/02/yugo-f12.html




4. Bodies were tempered with

As seen here on the photos, Albanian white cap was added later (warning - explicit photos):
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/pv020703.htm



5. William Walker pressuring forensics to alter the report

“she further explained Walker insisted she should tell the media that Serbs have committed a massacre in the village of Racak, and that the killed were not combatants, but “innocent civilians”.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=3451

“What angered him most was that I refused to use the word massacre and say who stood behind what happened in Račak. He was terribly angry about that. He threw a pencil at me,“ Ranta recalls.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=23&nav_id=54430


"In October 2008, Helena Ranta, the Finnish pathologist who had conducted the forensic examination on the Račak casualties, stated that she had been pressured to modify the contents of her report, both by the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and by William Walker, the head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Kosovo Verification Mission, in order to make more explicit the role of Yugoslav troops in the incident. She refused to do so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Račak_massacre#Forensic_reports





From all this we can conclude the William Walker, who was OSCE chief in Kosovo is a manipulant and cannot be trusted. He tempered with the evidence and investigation and I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in Racak, and who killed those men. I'm not saying that Serbians didn't do it for sure, but everything suggest that it was a CIA hoax.

Yes, I am not waiting from you any apologise. You don't admit even the massacres of Bosnia, especially Srebrenica, where were slaughtered 8000 people. Recak was nothing compared with Srebrenica. Fortunately the Serb prime minister apologized about the massacres. The massacre of Recak was done by the soldiers of Milosevic, not by the entire Serb people. Milosevic got it what he deserved.

 

[Ike]

No you are wrong,and you know it. Yugoslavia was governed by Tito. He was a Croat. Afterwards his death the Serbs started to take the power. Which means that kosova was ruled non by the Serbs. When the Serbs took the power over Yugoslavia they omitted the human rights and the self governing of inhabitants of kosova. Serbs were the reason why Yugoslavia dissolve. During the time of Tito the Albanians were ok.

No, it was not the Serbs. It was CIA and EU that destroyed Yugoslavia on purpose. And it has nothing to do with Albanians or human rights. If they didn't do it, Serbs would never let NATO enter the region.

Yes, I am not waiting from you any apologise. You don't admit even the massacres of Bosnia, especially Srebrenica, where were slaughtered 8000 people. Recak was nothing compared with Srebrenica. Fortunately the Serb prime minister apologized about the massacres. The massacre of Recak was done by the soldiers of Milosevic, not by the entire Serb people. Milosevic got it what he deserved.

1. I can't apologize for Serbian people.

2. You're lying. Nowhere did I say that massacres hadn't happen.

3. As I've already told you about Racak, if William Walker didn't meddle with the evidence and pressured experts in his insane wish to start war with Yugoslavia as soon as possible, we might have known what exactly happened. Walker probably knows, as does his instructor Madeleine Albright. He didn't want an investigation, he just hurried to bring TV cameras to make his propaganda photos. After his photoshoot was done, he didn't care anymore about the bodies.

 

[Piro Ilir]

No, it was not the Serbs. It was CIA and EU that destroyed Yugoslavia on purpose. And it has nothing to do with Albanians or human rights. If they didn't do it, Serbs would never let NATO enter the region.




1. I can't apologize for Serbian people.

2. You're lying. Nowhere did I say that massacres hadn't happen.

3. As I've already told you about Racak, if William Walker didn't meddle with the evidence and pressured experts in his insane wish to start war with Yugoslavia as soon as possible, we might have known what exactly happened. Walker probably knows, as does his instructor Madeleine Albright. He didn't want an investigation, he just hurried to bring TV cameras to make his propaganda photos. After his photoshoot was done, he didn't care anymore about the bodies.

The war was against Milosevic and against Serbia. It was not a war onto Yugoslavia, simply because there was no more Yugoslavia. There remained only Serbia and her nationalist rulers [emoji23]. Everyone left from Yugoslavia. You mean that 1 million kosovars who left during the war, left because the NATO was making an ethnic cleansing? There are many testimonies from those people, which clearly show an ethnic cleansing made by the Serbs. The atrocities were disgusting.

 

[Johannes]

No, it was not the Serbs. It was CIA and EU that destroyed Yugoslavia on purpose. And it has nothing to do with Albanians or human rights. If they didn't do it, Serbs would never let NATO enter the region.[/QUOTE

Can you please explain as to why the CIA or EU would want to destroy or break up the Yugoslav Republic??? It dissolved by itself. So why would the EU or USA want to have anything to do with making things more difficult?? You seem to have some deep knowledge that we will never know. Please enlighten us

 

[Johannes]

The war was against Milosevic and against Serbia. It was not a war onto Yugoslavia, simply because there was no more Yugoslavia. There remained only Serbia and her nationalist rulers [emoji23]. Everyone left from Yugoslavia. You mean that 1 million kosovars who left during the war, left because the NATO was making an ethnic cleansing? There are many testimonies from those people, which clearly show an ethnic cleansing made by the Serbs. The atrocities were disgusting.

This is exactly what we in USA saw or learned form the media. Now is the media wrong or are the Serbs trying to hide their crimes?

 

[Piro Ilir]

This is exactly what we in USA saw or learned form the media. Now is the media wrong or are the Serbs trying to hide their crimes?

You and no one else can fabricate so many testimonies. There are many testimonies from the refugees who left to Albania. Many of them are disgusting. But the member Ike is not representing here all the Serbs. They generally have a different behavior onto this issue. They admitted the crimes made by the Milosevic's regime . Today we have a new era on Albanian Serb relationships.
We don't want no more photos like this on Balkans

 

[Piro Ilir]

Massive graves were discovered on Serbia and Kosova afterward the war and recently. There are still civil dead kosovars who have not still a grave.

 

[Piro Ilir]

The last photo is of one Serb criminal, while killing a Kosovar . He still walks free on the northern mitrovica territory.

 

[Ike]

Can you please explain as to why the CIA or EU would want to destroy or break up the Yugoslav Republic??? It dissolved by itself. So why would the EU or USA want to have anything to do with making things more difficult?? You seem to have some deep knowledge that we will never know. Please enlighten us

They wanted to destroy it so they could get the territories into NATO.

It didn't dissolve by itself, it had a hard push from the outside. Why would anyone think about dissolvement and starting a war after the Soviet Union collapsed, and communist regimes started falling down across the Eastern Europe? Yugoslavia was awaiting transition, and everyone was aware that in 5-10 years period they'd be practically independent. It was the moment when multiparty system was introduced, and the republics could choose their own leaders, change laws, control their monetary system independent of Federal government, etc. No, I don't believe it dissolved by itself.

They didn't make it difficult, they made things better for themselves. They destroyed the Yugoslav economy, and after that they bought Yugoslav factories and facilities for small money. Now people have nowhere to work, and they have to buy foreign products, for which they have no money, so that country is falling deeper into debts. They installed NATO troops all over region, they have Bonstill here, and after that they went towards Ukraine.
"Camp Bondsteel is the largest and the most expensive foreign military base built by the US in Europe, since the Vietnam War."

They practically occupied the whole territory of ex Yugoslavia and made it it's colony. Exactly everything for which people were dissatisfied with (pre 1990) communist government, is now happening. The independence sent newly formed states back in time ~70 years.

This is exactly what we in USA saw or learned form the media. Now is the media wrong or are the Serbs trying to hide their crimes?

I already posted here. It has nothing to do with Serbians, Croatians or anything else. Most simple religion and global politics stuff. If it was the Serbs that wanted to cooperate with CIA in their plans, now you'd see Croatia, Bosnia and Albania deleted from the maps. We are all too small in those games. Read some books if you want to know what really happened and why:

 

[Ike]

The war was against Milosevic and against Serbia. It was not a war onto Yugoslavia, simply because there was no more Yugoslavia. There remained only Serbia and her nationalist rulers [emoji23]. Everyone left from Yugoslavia. You mean that 1 million kosovars who left during the war, left because the NATO was making an ethnic cleansing? There are many testimonies from those people, which clearly show an ethnic cleansing made by the Serbs. The atrocities were disgusting.

We already discussed this. There is and was no Serbia. It is not a legitimate state as was not any other formed by communists.

You and no one else can fabricate so many testimonies. There are many testimonies from the refugees who left to Albania. Many of them are disgusting. But the member Ike is not representing here all the Serbs. They generally have a different behavior onto this issue. They admitted the crimes made by the Milosevic's regime . Today we have a new era on Albanian Serb relationships. We don't want no more photos like this on Balkans

No we don't have no era of anything. It's just a mask until the war begins again. I'm aware of that

 

[VMRO1893]

What about Macedonia? [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45]

Indeed. Macedonia remains intact despite numerous attempts by Albanians to do otherwise. Macedonian territorial integrity has the backing of all major powers, with Russia, the US and EU all agreeing on this. Albanians won the best deal in 2001 with the Ohrid Agreement. That is it for them.

 

[Sile]

Indeed. Macedonia remains intact despite numerous attempts by Albanians to do otherwise. Macedonian territorial integrity has the backing of all major powers, with Russia, the US and EU all agreeing on this. Albanians won the best deal in 2001 with the Ohrid Agreement. That is it for them.

yes, Albanians got everything and everyone else lost out

 

[Piro Ilir]

They wanted to destroy it so they could get the territories into NATO.

It didn't dissolve by itself, it had a hard push from the outside. Why would anyone think about dissolvement and starting a war after the Soviet Union collapsed, and communist regimes started falling down across the Eastern Europe? Yugoslavia was awaiting transition, and everyone was aware that in 5-10 years period they'd be practically independent. It was the moment when multiparty system was introduced, and the republics could choose their own leaders, change laws, control their monetary system independent of Federal government, etc. No, I don't believe it dissolved by itself.

They didn't make it difficult, they made things better for themselves. They destroyed the Yugoslav economy, and after that they bought Yugoslav factories and facilities for small money. Now people have nowhere to work, and they have to buy foreign products, for which they have no money, so that country is falling deeper into debts. They installed NATO troops all over region, they have Bonstill here, and after that they went towards Ukraine.
"Camp Bondsteel is the largest and the most expensive foreign military base built by the US in Europe, since the Vietnam War."

They practically occupied the whole territory of ex Yugoslavia and made it it's colony. Exactly everything for which people were dissatisfied with (pre 1990) communist government, is now happening. The independence sent newly formed states back in time ~70 years.




I already posted here. It has nothing to do with Serbians, Croatians or anything else. Most simple religion and global politics stuff. If it was the Serbs that wanted to cooperate with CIA in their plans, now you'd see Croatia, Bosnia and Albania deleted from the maps. We are all too small in those games. Read some books if you want to know what really happened and why:
View attachment 7406

It was the because the Serb leaders after the death of tito, started to control the whole state. If you should have a multi ethnic state,you should keep all the ethnic people's rights equally. You saying that CIA brainwashed the Croats, the Albanians, the bosniaks, the Macedonians, the slovenes?[emoji23] Why everyone was trying to separate from Serbia? The whole Yugoslavians were trying to separate and only the Serbs didn't. Kosovars are ok with the American military base on their territory. Anyone is free to welcome what he wants inside his home.