Immigration Banning the veil and burqa in order to respect to Koran

[Maciamo]

There was a special programme on Euronews about the integration of Turkish immigrants in Germany. In one of the interviews, a Turkish woman explained that wearing the veil was not imposed by the Koran (this I knew), but also that the message of the Koran was clearly that women were a gift to men, and that women had to wear an "attractive package" (i.e. nice clothes) in order to please men. Men who "owned" a woman (their wife) could thus unwrap the package, just like a present.

This is extremely interesting because it would mean that Muslim women are supposed to be fashionable and attractive to men according to the Koran. I have often heard of rich Saudi, Kuwaiti or Emirates women wearing expensive fashion-designer clothes under their monotonous black robe and veil hiding their entire body and face. This somehow proves that they are indeed allowed , and encouraged, to be sexy. I believe that the hijab (headscarf) and especially the veils and robes such as niqab, chador or burqa (depending on the country), which conceal the whole body, including the face.

Thus banning veils, headscarves and other robes would not contradict the Koran - except if the Koran contradicts itself, which wouldn't surprise me. In order to emancipate Muslim women from the persidious traditions imposed by men and not the Koran, it is the duty of Western government to ban both veils and headscarves.

 

[Wang]

I don't know much about Islam, but I read that wearing a "chador" or veil is not mandated by the Koran. It's a cultural practice which appeared centuries after Mohammed. The Koran does say that men and women should dress modestly.

 

[Mycernius]

The veil was originally a statues symbol that was only worn by Muhammads wives. As the years went by Islam became very male dominated and the veil started to extend to all women. Islam itself was a very female heavy religion to begin with. Most of the early converts were female because it Islam believed in the equal rights of men and women and because the pre-islamic ideas on womens rights were a little non-existant. Unfortunately with the death of Muhammad these very men who used to live by these pre-islamic ideas became the new Mulsim leaders and teachers over the years and re-introduced these older concepts.

 

[Maciamo]

It's a bit like Buddhism, which originally was a way of life, but later became a religion with its superstitons, deities and many other things which the Buddha had never talked about.

Well, in the case of Islam we can't deny that Muhammad was a warrior who built his religion by the sword and blood. At least one of the original teachings has been respected to this day ! But is it better ?

 

[Kinsao]

It's also worth noting that some Muslim women choose and want to wear the veil and robe. I have seen interviews where women have said that they feel empowered by this as they feel that men aren't judging them by their looks when they are wearing the veil. (I realise that a handful of interviews don't represent the views of all Muslim women; I'm just saying there's a plus side too! )

 

[Maciamo]

At least the voice of reason in politics. As usual common sense on societal issues comes first from the Netherlands : BBC News : Dutch government backs burqa ban

The Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa in public places.

The burqa, a full body covering that also obscures the face, would be banned by law in the street, and in trains, schools, buses and the law courts.

The cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.

...

An estimated 5% of people living in the Netherlands are Muslims.

But there are just a few dozen women in the Netherlands who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.

This ban does not concern the most common Muslim headscarves that do not cover entirely the face, like the hijab, niqab (close enough though), al-amira, shayla, khimar or chador.

This law is thus very different from the one banning any kind of religious symbols in public institutions (including public schools) in France. The new Dutch law concerns only one type of Muslim headscarf, because it hides the face completely, and the ban is not just in public institutions but all public places (street included).

I think that both laws are necessary, and even complementary. In Belgium, some towns have already banned the burqa, but no national or state law has been voted so far. Likewise some schools have banned religious symbols but it isn't required by law either.

 

[GorazdR]

It's also worth noting that some Muslim women choose and want to wear the veil and robe. I have seen interviews where women have said that they feel empowered by this as they feel that men aren't judging them by their looks when they are wearing the veil. (I realise that a handful of interviews don't represent the views of all Muslim women; I'm just saying there's a plus side too! )

They feel empowered because that's possibly the only time they CAN feel empowered. I don't personaly oppose any public display of ones religion, but exceptions (legal photos, teaching in schools etc. ...) should ve emposed.

 

[Ma Cherie]

It's also worth noting that some Muslim women choose and want to wear the veil and robe. I have seen interviews where women have said that they feel empowered by this as they feel that men aren't judging them by their looks when they are wearing the veil. (I realise that a handful of interviews don't represent the views of all Muslim women; I'm just saying there's a plus side too! )

I agree with you Kinsao. Some Western feminists feel that wearing the hijab is oppressive, but the fact of the matter is that some muslim feel that Western women are more objectified. Through te media of course, and in some ways this is true. I think we also really need to stop using words like "veil" because I don' think that's correct term. It is also important to note that in some Middle Eastern countries really don't force women to wear the hijab, they can wear it if they choose to do so.

Well, this is complex issue and a whole book can be written on this subject.

 

[Kinsao]

^ good point about the name, Ma Cherie.

What i was trying to put across was something of the situation in my family for example; out of 4 Muslim sisters, 3 of them don't wear the hijab (they just wear "ordinary" clothes including low-cut dresses and such), and the 4th does wear it... it's out of her choice, and i think she should be free to choose it.

Of course i don't think women should be forced by men into wearing the hijab. :souka:

Just thinking that there are differences in the situations.
I really dislike the idea of the government telling people what they can and can't wear. kashii:
That is too oppressive in my view.
I think oppression should be battled from both sides.
Women shouldn't be forced to wear certain things, neither be told "you're not allowed to wear it". Each attitude is flawed imo. (There are exceptions for jobs that require a uniform or particular protective clothing, special cases where an employer dictates what you are allowed to wear, which is the same for everyone.)

 

[Minty]

The problem with these Muslims and their Burkas is that when they are expected to take away their veil, be it for security measures, recognition reasons or patrol reasons, Muslims have decline to do so.

When it comes to the security guard that ask them to remove their veil to see their faces, they reject, and then induce troubles. When it comes to photo IDs, they call for photos to be taken with the burka, and then seek to litigate. When it comes to security measures, they reject, when it comes to policemen they again choose to resist.

If you are wearing a hat or a ski mask and the cop wants to check your face for security reasons you would take it off, without making a hassle. If you go to a store and you are require to take your head gear off you would, then put it back on your head when you leave.

 

[Maciamo]

Minty is right. There are so many situation that involves showing your face, such as checking that you are the rightful owner of a bus/metro/train season ticket, of a cinema member card, etc. What is more, you should be able to produce your ID card anytime on request from a police officer in many continental European countries, and this again requires you to show your face. Add to that all the companies (e.g. banks) or public buildings (e.g. post office) that won't let you enter with a covered face, and we understand that the burqa causes more trouble than anything else. It doesn't matter whether women wear it of their own will or whether they are forced to, whether it is part of their religious obligation or not, if they want to live in a Western society they should comply with the system and the most basic values of the country.

 

[Duo]

Sometimes I see these women driving with headscarves that come like in front of the sides of the face. So u can see the face frontally but not really sideways. I always wondered that it is a danger to road safety if one cant see so well with the sides of the eyes.. i mean the field of vision is reduced this way. I am for banning of all headscarves. If these people want they shoudl wear them at home, not in public, and by that i mean anywhere outside of home.

 

[Maciamo]

Sometimes I see these women driving with headscarves that come like in front of the sides of the face. So u can see the face frontally but not really sideways. I always wondered that it is a danger to road safety if one cant see so well with the sides of the eyes.. i mean the field of vision is reduced this way. I am for banning of all headscarves. If these people want they shoudl wear them at home, not in public, and by that i mean anywhere outside of home.

That's a very good point (how didn't I think about it myself ). Headscarves (of all types) should be prohibited while driving. I seriously hope that burqa's are already forbidden !

There are also a danger for pedestrians crossing the road. In Brussels, I noticed quite a few junctions where one had to cross the pedestrian crossing when the traffic light was red for pedestrians if they ever wanted to get on the other side. This is because of tunnels and side lanes along the boulevards, so that traffic does not just come vertically and horizontally, but also diagonally, and many cars also turn to the left or right, so that pedestrians have to be very careful. Women with headscraves (numerous in Brussels) cannot take the risk to cross alone, so they have to wait for a few people to cross with them, and they end up taking a few more minutes than everybody else to get on the other side of the boulevard.

 

[Maciamo]

The Economist has just published an interesting summary about anti-headscarves attitudes in Western Europe : Islam in Europe : Hostility at home

However I do not understand this part

American laws on freedom of expression and religion are more permissive than those in Europe. Only those who mask their faces explicitly to hide themselves and intimidate others—like the Ku Klux Klan—are forbidden to cover their faces in public forums like marches. A law banning the burqa would be flatly unconstitutional.

Does that mean that a woman can wear a burqa to take the plane, and can keep it while driving, during an ID check by the police, or while being callde as a witness in court ?

 

[Ma Cherie]

No, in fact there was an incident here in the US a while back where a woman refused to remove her hijab because it was covering her face. She was taking a picture for her driver's liscenes.

Now I have to wonder, it seems in Europe the hijab should be banned altogether correct? I think in the US when it comes to religious head coverings they're exceptions to the rule. Normally, people aren't allowed to show religious symbols on their jobs. But when it comes to religious headcoverings, there are some exceptions. Then it also depends alot on where you work. Like the Kippot, the Jewish head covering, that would be an exception. But I'm talking about as far as jobs are concerned.

There are alot of muslim students on campus, and I never saw them cover their faces entirely. And I've also met muslim women who don't wear the hijab at all, because they want to fit in with the culture.

Why should headscarves be banned while driving? How do you know if they can or not? When wearing the headscarves while driving you don't know if they can see or not. They could probably see just fine.

But in situations concering ID checks and other security situations, I think muslim women should remove their hijabs if they're covering their faces.

 

[Maciamo]

I think in the US when it comes to religious head coverings they're exceptions to the rule. Normally, people aren't allowed to show religious symbols on their jobs. But when it comes to religious headcoverings, there are some exceptions. Then it also depends alot on where you work. Like the Kippot, the Jewish head covering, that would be an exception. But I'm talking about as far as jobs are concerned.

This is not about showing religious symbols, but showing your face.

There are alot of muslim students on campus, and I never saw them cover their faces entirely.

There are Muslims everywhere in Brussels and Paris and I have never seen a burqa or niqab (the ones covering the face completly), but few Muslim women do not wear a headscarf over their hair.

And I've also met muslim women who don't wear the hijab at all, because they want to fit in with the culture.

This is anothe debate, but the general feeling of Europeans in the Benelux and France is that Muslims do not want to integrate justly because they keep the dress and lifestyle of their country of origin.

Why should headscarves be banned while driving? How do you know if they can or not? When wearing the headscarves while driving you don't know if they can see or not.

Who said so ? We were talking about the burqa, not headscarves in general. Don't mix apples and pears.

 

[Truth be told]

The problem that you do not know the benefits of a veil ..

Hijab shows the dignity of women and on men to respect women ..

Because young people do not Etjrwn Iqterbu that a woman who shows the opposite of others are seen by everyone to wear hijab and they can touch her honor

Look for it in google and Abgeso Islam well ..

Because true happiness in Islam ..

Here, a poem about the veil


:heart:


You look at me and call me oressed
Simply because of the way I'm dressed
You know me not for what's inside
You judge the clothing I wear with pride
My body's not for your eyes to hold
You must speak to my mind, not my feminine mold
I'm an individual, I'm no mans slave
It's Allah's pleasure that I only crave
I have a voice so I will be heard
For in my heart I carry His word
" O ye women, wrap close your cloak, So you won't be bothered by ignorant folk",
Man doesn't tell me to dress this way
It's a Law from God that I obey
Oressed is something I'm truly NOT
For liberation is what I've got
It was given to me many years ago
With the right to prosper, the right to grow
I can climb mountains or cross the seas
Expand my mind in all degrees
For God Himself gave us LIB-ER-TY
When He sent Islam
To You and Me!



Its copies with my best wishes

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Sorry, does not compute...