Immigration Belgian Muslims ask government to ban Easter eggs and Xmas trees

[sparkey]

Hmm, they wear headscarves to be "modest" because thats is what islam tells them too. If they don't they are not modest and will be sent to hellfire. If that doesn't sound like a threat I don't know what does. I know it might sound silly from our persepctive, but people actually do take what it says in these books seriously, and people are still afraid of the fiction that is hell. If women wanted to be modest or wear it for the sake of being modest and not because a book commands them to, I wouldn't mind, but it is not the case, they are commanded to, and they have to obey for a variety of reasons that may include family pressures and threat of hellfire.

To be more frank, it really doesn't matter what these books say anymore, they're all fiction. So when we see that people are still the victims of these medieval ideas and are pressured from family to continue them, it would be wise to step in. I find it hard not to think of the headscarve of nothing more that a male domination symbol of the female, adopted form a time civilization wasn't going so well. If people did what the bible tells them to, and kill anyone who works on sunday, I'm sure the government would step in and take action like they are doing with this repression head item.

Removing the right for women to wear what they want is not only infringing on real rights (freedom of religion and freedom to dress as you choose), it is also attacking the symptom rather than the disease. I don't disagree that religious indoctrination can be a problem, or that Islam has a gender role problem. But the analogy you bring up is poor. Sure, if there were threats to kill those who work on the Sabbath, that should be punishable. Similarly, if a Muslim man threatens a woman with violence if she does not wear her headscarf, that is what should be punished. But I see no reason that headscarves themselves should be.

A better analogy would be with Amish dress. The Amish believe that the Bible commands women to dress modestly as women--that is, only conservative dresses. That is a silly, outdated, and oppressive idea. But it doesn't follow that we should ban Amish dresses. The difference between Muslims and the Amish is that Muslims will sometimes follow with the threat of force, and that is the problem that should be attacked by offering assistance to threatened women and enforcing bans on violent threats.

But banning headscarves (or veils, or whatever) makes it so that women can't even freely choose to practice a religion how they see fit, or to make their own clothing choices.

Maybe it's my American mentality that I think this way. I know that polls are always drastically different between the US and all of Europe when the question is about whether or not to ban full veils. I inherit a Lockean concept of rights. But it seems so intuitive to me that I have trouble seeing the other perspective as being anything other than fear of Muslim cultural influence (which, as I've said, I think that Greeks have a certain entitlement to).

 

[Elias2]

The point I most disagree with you is you think they *want* to wear it, as opposed to *have* to wear it as dictated by the koran.

 

[Antigone]

Mmm here is the Islamic dress code for women. Doesn't say anything about hellfire and damnation though.....

Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say that the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

—Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 30-31, Qur'an[1]
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O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them. That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not harassed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
—Sura 33 (Al-Ahzab), ayah 59, Qur'an[2]

However, under (strict interpretation of) Sharia Law, women are required to cover all of their bodies except hands and face. The rationale given for these rules is that men and women are not to be viewed as sexual objects. Men are required to keep their guard up and women to protect themselves. In theory, should either one fail, the other prevents the society from falling into fitna (temptation or discord).There are many different opinions, however, as to whether the veil or headscarf is a real Qur'anic obligation. Some scholars such as Yusuf al-Qaradawi claim it is, while others, such as Mohammed Arkoun, Soheib Bencheikh, Abdoldjavad Falaturi, Jamal al Banna claim it isn't. However, the first group appears dominant: "Jamal al Banna has been for a number of years one of the few mainstream Muslim scholars to argue that the Muslim headscarf, or hijab, is not an Islamic obligation."[150]


So not even Islamic scholars are in agreement over the head covering issue and as with any religious text, the Koran is open to whatever interpretation one chooses. But I do agree with Sparkey, seems the banning of head coverings is more to do with Islamophobia than any real objection to a piece of material covering the hair. The arguments bought up so far in favour of the banning have been insubstantial in the extreme.




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[iapetoc]

The point I most disagree with you is you think they *want* to wear it, as opposed to *have* to wear it as dictated by the koran.

Elias, Sparkey is still in opened minds,
He is right,
In Europe I have seen muslims that are more free,
go to Con/polis, Turkey is islamic country, many women do not where Scarfs, Mantilas, Tsatilas,
think of older Greek women,
do you believe that all wanted to wear the black or white Μαντηλες?
no society forced them specially, in small villages,
Biblle of cristians force women either to were a scarf, either to save their heads, (Corinth A)
can you imagine a woman with saved head in church, on in a village?

I know that many of our grand mothers liked the scarf,
Muslim people are not that fanatic in pressing,
pressing comes from the heart of islam, and for islamic foundamentals,
Turkey is Huge country,
In Con/polis there is not a problem if a woman do not wear scarf, or speak to boys,
But in far east Turkey they burry a girl cause she spoke to a boy,
the same is with Islam,
first generations realize, and want the scarf just to be different, they want to wear it,
but later immigrations think they live in heart of islam,and carry their dogmas,
you are right about that, the Greek muslims always had a white scarf, and Greek cristians a Black, Pomaks had scarf that say even they married or not, I believe many of them want to wear it,
But from that to Burca!!!! or to burry alive a new girl cause she spoke to a boy!!!!!!
simply is ...
the most shocking I have ever seen in Thessaloniki
was 2 women like ghosts cover by a nice green sheet, and in areas of eyes had dantellas,
it was freaky, kids were afraid and hold mothers hand,

sparkey is wright
if we ban head scarfs then we should also ban μαντηλες, and every kind of hat Europeans wear,
simply the scarf became as the trade mark of islam,

when I was a soldier i had a blue beret (that time marines forces) with the Greek symbol above,
And believe me many times I was proud to wear it, and I have it even after 15 years,
the same is with scarf for muslim women
many of them want to wear it,
By wearing it they believe that they are divine creatures, they believe that they are not pig eaters, they are pure, and not dirty, etc.

I believe that are not that much forced, at least majority.

the thing they are forced is another, and indeed that is ugly.
κλειτοριδεκτομη.
female genital mutilation

 

[Elias2]

Antigone, the notion throughout these books is you do gods bidding in order to get on his good side to go to paradise and not hell, so it doesn't matter that it doesn't specifically say in those paragraphs about hellfire, because the notion is there thoughout the book as by example it does say allah will be well aquainted to you do wear it. Being an athiest, it really doesn't matter to me what religious "scholars" say about the headscarf, because they are basing their reasoning on a fictional book. Real life isn't fiction, but people still follow what they say, I think princibly because of family pressures, like Iapetoc said about the more conservative eastern Turkey.

Political correctness is a weapon religous people use in order to spread what they want, and I will not play that game. There is a difference between covering yourself up your entire life and putting ornaments on a tree and hitting eggs against each other on certain dates of the year.

 

[Brett142]

I don't think anything should be banned.
I think it's unfair to expect muslim women not to wear head scarves since it's a part of their religion, I don't see a problem with that. I do however have a problem with Burkas (when the whole face is covered up) because it is a choice and they don't have to wear them. After all if non-muslims wore balaclavas at work for example, they'd be asked to remove them. I just think that Burkas have no place in such an identity conscious western society. After all if there was mass white immigration to, say, Saudi Arabia, they'd expect our women to cover up and not dress like 'wh*res', I don't think it's too much to ask for the same thing, respect.

As for Easter and Christmas, they have very little to do with religion these days. Like Maciamo said, nothing about Easter eggs or the Easter bunny is in the bible, nor are Christmas trees (they were a pagan custom, believed to have been started originally when Egyptians used to bring palm trees inside during passover)

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

Sad to see we're having a discussion about preserving our heritage. If they have a problem with our laws and our traditions, they are welcome to go back to their homelands...