Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

You know it goes to a certain extent, not to absurd extremes, like outright rejecting every academic paper that offends your sensibilities. You're the rule master of qpaDm, those academics should have consulted with you first. Give me a break man.

Whatever, I already creating a statistical robustness test script that will give an unbias interpretation of the result. I am basing the criteria on documentation about qpadm. I don't need you to tell me anything buddy.

I can't express to you how much I don't give a shit about your opinion, especially in contravention of credible sources.

What every academic paper, i wouldnt even call those papers, they are highschool project level of quality. I use outgroups similar to Southern arc, they completely debunk the unscientific anti-qpAdm rule papers you sent. If you have read qpAdm theory you would have known that you have to include outgroups that are ancestral to the left pops and that also help tell them apart or check for possible extra ancestries so qpAdm can give a bad p value if something extra is needed.

There is no offense in my sensibilities, are you projecting your own sensibilities? I'm just trying to explain to you that you are using qpAdm completely wrong. Try the Southern arc outgroups for the Mycenaeans on you and see what happens. The paper you sent are not credible sources, they are using qpAdm yet broke every important qpAdm rule, read qpAdm theory.

 

[Jovialis]

Skourtanioti et al. 2023

I have a sub-clade of R1b-PF7566 found in Ancient Greek XAN30.

LBA Mainland Greeks plot over many modern Greeks and most modern Italians, not just Southerners.

 

[epirus1000]

Skourtanioti et al. 2023

I have a sub-clade of R1b-PF7566 found in Ancient Greek XAN30.

LBA Mainland Greeks plot over many modern Greeks and most modern Italians, not just Southerners.

It is possible that XAN030 is some outlier of Crete coming from Illyria/Dardania/Macedonia, as it is close to other proto-Illyrian contributions as of MYG002 and MYG003, and of course the possible proto-Macedonian Log02. Same with TIR008, another Mycenean/Argolis skeleton of Iron Age, which I don't have additional information.

 

[Jovialis]

Greek or otherwise, I find it endlessly fascinating that it can be traced to MLBA Indo-Europeans.

 

[Jovialis]

Eventually his descendant reached Sardinia (PF7566) a few clades later, from the Balkans (I made a little mistake, it was PF7562 which was XAN30). From which it returned. I think the Saudi Arabian descendant was probably a European slave that was given freedom during Ottoman rule. It was possible for European men to become quite accomplished if given freedom. That was according to our Turkish guide in Istanbul:

 

[Archetype0ne]

Eventually his descendant reached Sardinia (PF7566) a few clades later, from the Balkans (I made a little mistake, it was PF7562 which was XAN30). From which it returned. I think the Saudi Arabian descendant was probably a European slave that was given freedom during Ottoman rule. It was possible for European men to become quite accomplished if given freedom. That was according to our Turkish guide in Istanbul:

Just like Rome earlier, the Ottomans recruited heavily from the Balkans, and they furthermore had custody of the holy mosques in Arabia.
So while it could have been a slave, historically this was more common:

Dukaginzade Ahmed Pasha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Muhammad Ali of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pashko Vasa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While the above are just some high ranking cases off memory relating to Albanians that were given posts around the Ottoman empire, this phenomenon ought to have been widespread across other nationalities in the Balkans. MIlitary recruitment could have been the main reason that line is found today in Arabia. Given the TMRCA it would make sense.

 

[eupator]

Greek or otherwise, I find it endlessly fascinating that it can be traced to MLBA Indo-Europeans.

Lots of Armenians below it as well. It's definitely part of that specific Yamnaya Greco-Armenian wave (Catacomb?).

 

[Dianatomia]

It is possible that XAN030 is some outlier of Crete coming from Illyria/Dardania/Macedonia, as it is close to other proto-Illyrian contributions as of MYG002 and MYG003, and of course the possible proto-Macedonian Log02. Same with TIR008, another Mycenean/Argolis skeleton of Iron Age, which I don't have additional information.

What is certain is more and more high Steppe individuals were moving South from the North as time went by. There will be outliers on every side. Since the language shifted to Greek we should name them proto Greeks? We know that the new migration culminated to Greek. Not Illyrian. So why equate higher Steppe to Illyrian?

 

[blevins13]

What is certain is more and more high Steppe individuals were moving South from the North as time went by. There will be outliers on every side. Since the language shifted to Greek we should name them proto Greeks? We know that the new migration culminated to Greek. Not Illyrian. So why equate higher Steppe to Illyrian?

In order to name these high steppe individuals proto - Greek you have the pinpoint the place and culture they came from the north.

As for their genetics they are part of the Eastern Adriatik Continuum ( or Illyrian like).

 

[eupator]

Why the arguments about the proto-dudes?

They all sprung from the same Yamnaya root: Albanian, Armenian and Greek.

What's the fuss about.

 

[blevins13]

Why the arguments about the proto-dudes?

They all sprung from the same Yamnaya root: Albanian, Armenian and Greek.

What's the fuss about.

There is no fuss, I just happened to believe they the Proto Greeks came from Anatolia not Yamnaya considering their lack of steppe Pelops is a viable option.

 

[Jovialis]

Pretty awesome, Lazaridis elaborates on Anatolian

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1737126388560462015

 

[eupator]

There is no fuss, I just happened to believe they the Proto Greeks came from Anatolia not Yamnaya considering their lack of steppe Pelops is a viable option.

Yamnaya also went through the Caucasus into Armenia.

So one does not negate the other, if this is the case.

Greco-Armenian branch is strong hypothesis.

 

[Jovialis]

Skourtanioti et al. 2023

I have a sub-clade of R1b-PF7566 found in Ancient Greek XAN30.

LBA Mainland Greeks plot over many modern Greeks and most modern Italians, not just Southerners.

Something I've noticed recently from looking at the AncestryDNA results of several family members who are only half-Barese, and half southern Italian from other regions, is that they all tend to get about 70-80% southern Italian, with about half as much Greece/Albania as I do. They also tend to get about 1-3% Levant, whereas I do not.

I used to think maybe it was just the algorithm displaying results that are too similar to decern. But maybe there's more actual truth to the results than I thought. My cousin who contacted me sort of brought it to my attention, because I commented about being only 59% Southern Italian, while she was in about 80%, and the reason she said was because I'm fully from Bari, while she's half.

 

[TetaEglantina]

It is possible that XAN030 is some outlier of Crete coming from Illyria/Dardania/Macedonia, as it is close to other proto-Illyrian contributions as of MYG002 and MYG003, and of course the possible proto-Macedonian Log02. Same with TIR008, another Mycenean/Argolis skeleton of Iron Age, which I don't have additional information.

XAN30 is Mycenaean, r-pf7562 has been present in Greece since bronze age -

R-PF7562 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[epirus1000]

XAN30 is Mycenaean, r-pf7562 has been present in Greece since bronze age -

R-PF7562 YTree

www.yfull.com

It does not mean anything! It is from Chania, hence the XAN. Let's wat for other samples, especially Kamenica and possibly others.
If one sample was found in Chania area, and three related samples from the Palace of Nestor does not mean it might be for sure that those are Mycenaean, taking in consideration the fact that the Mycenaean culture was already collapsing at the time.
So, having one Iron Age Albania sample from Cinamak and waiting for more samples from Albania, you might change the opinion.

 

[TetaEglantina]

It does not mean anything! It is from Chania, hence the XAN. Let's wat for other samples, especially Kamenica and possibly others.
If one sample was found in Chania area, and three related samples from the Palace of Nestor does not mean it might be for sure that those are Mycenaean, taking in consideration the fact that the Mycenaean culture was already collapsing at the time.
So, having one Iron Age Albania sample from Cinamak and waiting for more samples from Albania, you might change the opinion.

The ancient Greek samples predate the Albanian one though, I don't see how this line doesn't end up being Mycenaean. Maybe mostly pure Mycenaeans had 30% Steppe, those that heavily mixed with Minoans would have had less

 

[Vitruvius]

The ancient Greek samples predate the Albanian one though, I don't see how this line doesn't end up being Mycenaean. Maybe mostly pure Mycenaeans had 30% Steppe, those that heavily mixed with Minoans would have had less

I think a discussion based around which Mycenaeans are hypothetically "pure" is rather futile. The Mycenaean themselves were a product of admixture between northern Balkanic invidiuals, locals and western Anatolians. Their civilization effectively existed on this "cline" with the neolithic local component becoming reduced as time went on in favor of a stronger N. balkanic - Anatolian cline by the LBA.

 

[TetaEglantina]

I think a discussion based around which Mycenaeans are hypothetically "pure" is rather futile. The Mycenaean themselves were a product of admixture between northern Balkanic invidiuals, locals and western Anatolians. Their civilization effectively existed on this "cline" with the neolithic local component becoming reduced as time went on in favor of a stronger N. balkanic - Anatolian cline by the LBA.

Why would Mycenaeans have anything to do with northern Balkans?

 

[Vitruvius]

Why would Mycenaeans have anything to do with northern Balkans?

When I say "northern" I simply mean with origins geographically north of the Mycenaeans. It doesn't specifically have to be from places like the Carpathian basin.