Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Goga]

Yes, I know there's a Journal of Indo-European Studies. Give me an example of something in it that supports your ideas. Basically, you've got nothing, unless the Russian guy is saying something relevant, but I don't speak or understand Russian. And how am I jumbling together different time frames? The origins of PIE may possibly go back to about 5800 years ago or even earlier, although there are a lot of arguments about that. But even if PIE is that old, that doesn't, of itself, place the origins of PIE in Iran, nor does it prove that the differentiation of R1a began in Iran, both of which ideas you seem to be arguing, while somehow trying to relate that to the origins of R1a itself, which is something that happened long before either the origins of PIE or the differentiation of R1a. The maps convince me that the split between the two subclades probably happened about the time that PIE split into separate European and Indo-Iranic groups and the two subclades can be related to the language split. But there's nothing to place any of those events in Iran during the relevant time frame, except for five R1a samples that the authors think are relevant. I think you need more than that in order to make the case that the differentiation happened in Iran, and if you could prove that, such a conclusion would seem to contradict the match between the two subclades and the split of PIE into different groups, because all the archeological and linguistic evidence puts the origins of PIE on the steppes.

Turkic people conquered Central Asia from the Iranic people very late in history. Thousands of years after the evolution of Iranic people. So, you are jumbling together different time frames!’.

This so called Russian guy IS actually an ACADEMIC and the author of the so called 'Armenian Model'. According to me of all scientist he comes very close to the truth! And I'm not even talking about people like Renfrew or even Mallory who iss till very active and energetic in writing new papers.

Peope like you never expected that R1b came from West Asia. People like you never expectedthis kind of result of this R1a research. People like you never expected that some Yamna Horizon people were dark pigmented etc. All the current EVIDENCES are 100% against your ideas!
And the onlything what I can say is that time will learn. And I’m 100% positive that allthe future scientific articles will cause you a huge heart attack, hahaha.

 

[Silesian]

I don’t really know where the Hittites came from but they were not Iranic. At the time of the Hittites and Mitanni, Anatolian Indo-Europeans and Iranic Indo-Europeans were already very different from each other. They didn't come from the same place. I believe that the Hittites were most likely closer to the 'European' Indo-Europeans. That's why I believe that the Hittites belonged more to R1b.

Mitanni were primarily the SUN worshippers too. But the name of some their deities you can also find among the Vedic people. Mithraism comes from Mitanni, who continued the ideas ofthe Sumerian. I do strongly believe (but I have no prove) Sumerians that didn’tmigrate into Babylon but stayed in Kurdistan Zagors Mountains became Mitanni. Mynative Iranian religion the Yezidism comes from Mitanni. The ancient capital of Mitanni is located in Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan).
They were experts in horse training and were involved in developing of very light war chariots influenced by the ancient Sumerians. Also I believe that Mitanni were related to the Kassites who invade Babylon from the Zagros mountains.

Have they found any 4000 year old chariots from Andronovo style chariots in Kurdistan region, just 1 would really be great. Otherwise why do people keep bringing Adronovo style 4000 year chariot when none are found among Mitanni/Kurds which developed there own style and there own innovation? Are chariots Andronovo style found in old Indian regions like Hindu Kush? What is known between Hittite innovation in chariots ? Is there a common theme with chariots and R1a invasions? Sorry for so many more questions.

The Hittites were renowned charioteers. They developed a new chariot design that had lighter wheels, with four spokes rather than eight, and that held three rather than two warriors. It could hold three warriors because the wheel was placed in the middle of the chariot and not at the back as in the Egyptian chariots. Hittite prosperity largely depended on Hittite control of trade routes and natural resources, specifically metals

Horse-drawn chariot carved onto the mandapam of Airavateswarar temple, Darasuram, c. 12th century AD (left). The chariot and its wheel (right) are sculpted with fine details

 

[Goga]

I know that you dont understand it you havent in the last two threads either; Scythians and Cimmerians - are Archaeologically and Historically documented no mystery or doubts surround them or their origin; The first mention of Scythians/Cimmerians in WesternAsia/NearEast is during Sargon II by the Sennacherib-letter (late 8th cen BC) in the area of Urartu; And Herodotus (IV/XII) clearly describes how the Scythians entered Media via the Caucasus from the eastern steppes;

Ilya Gershevitch - The Cambridge History of Iran:Vol.II (1985 / Cambridge Uni.)
According to Herodotus account uncontradicted by archaeological data the Scythians, after the Massagetae pushed them out of the trans-Volgan steppes to the west, penetrated into the territory of the Cimmerians and finally appeared in the Near East by moving along the Caspian shore - "having on their right side the Caucasian mountain"

If such migrations occurred in Historical times (and obviously they did) than no need to doubt the Archaeological attested trails from the Eneolithic/Bronze-age;


Not the sky but Indo-Europeans from the steppes; Corded-ware also emerged from the steppes and thats also the earliest R1a (corpses) in Europe;

You don’t haveany clues what you’re talking about. Just copy past what other have been sayingand what suit you the best.
Yes, It’spossible some Scythians entered Kurdistan from Northern Caucasus. I do not denythat. Scythians came from Central Asia first! They were NOT native to Pontic CaspianSteppes! And this has nothing to do with the proto-Iranians, the Medes etc.Proto-Iranians lived thousands of years before the Scythians!

And where do youthink R1a1etc. in Central Asia is from?

 

[Goga]

Have they found any 4000 year old chariots from Andronovo style chariots in Kurdistan region, just 1 would really be great. Otherwise why do people keep bringing Adronovo style 4000 year chariot when none are found among Mitanni/Kurds which developed there own style and there own innovation? Are chariots Andronovo style found in old Indian regions like Hindu Kush? What is known between Hittite innovation in chariots ? Is there a common theme with chariots and R1a invasions? Sorry for so many more questions.

I don’t know man. I think you have much more knowledge about his issues than I do.

 

[Goga]

Let's not forget that the primarily R1a Andronovo culture had chariots 4000 years ago.

wiki has some more interesting info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot According to wiki Sumerian vehicles are MUCH older than Andronovo vehicles and Andronovo culture is 'at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture'. In turn Yamna was derived from Maykop. And Maykop from Sumerians / Leyla-Tepe culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

 

[Nobody1]

You don’t haveany clues what you’re talking about. Just copy past what other have been sayingand what suit you the best.
Yes, It’spossible some Scythians entered Kurdistan from Northern Caucasus. I do not denythat. Scythians came from Central Asia first! They were NOT native to Pontic CaspianSteppes! And this has nothing to do with the proto-Iranians, the Medes etc.Proto-Iranians lived thousands of years before the Scythians!

And where do youthink R1a1etc. in Central Asia is from?

Im just highlighting what the scholars are saying i.e. what is based on academic research; If you dont like it than thats not my problem; I know that you are more fond of your self constructed theories and fantasy assumptions but reading a book wouldnt hurt - just an advise;

 

[Goga]

I'm sure nobody here knows what the heck you meant by modern? Like technologically advanced, more than their neighbors perhaps?

We know lots about Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites because they could write. So how modern Medes were when compared to neighbours?


Do you see some discrepancies in your logic maybe

You can't understand my (bad) English or maybe you're trying to make me look ridiculous. By modern I mean compared to more ancient Iranic peoples. The Medes lived only 3000 years ago, while people like Mitanni, Kassites and Hittites already existed 3500 years ago. The Medes became known as Medes after the Hittites and Mitanni were gone.

 

[Goga]

Im just highlighting what the scholars are saying i.e. what is based on academic research; If you dont like it than thats not my problem; I know that you are more fond of your self constructed theories and fantasy assumptions but reading a book wouldnt hurt - just an advise;

Just show me where scholars are claiming that the Scythians were native to the Black Sea (or even Pontic-Caspian Sea region and NOT Central Asia? You really don't have any clue what you’re e talking about, hahaha.

 

[LeBrok]

Have they found any 4000 year old chariots from Andronovo style chariots in Kurdistan region, just 1 would really be great. Otherwise why do people keep bringing Adronovo style 4000 year chariot when none are found among Mitanni/Kurds which developed there own style and there own innovation? Are chariots Andronovo style found in old Indian regions like Hindu Kush? What is known between Hittite innovation in chariots ? Is there a common theme with chariots and R1a invasions? Sorry for so many more questions.



Horse-drawn chariot carved onto the mandapam of Airavateswarar temple, Darasuram, c. 12th century AD (left). The chariot and its wheel (right) are sculpted with fine details

Supposedly this is a Nittany chariot:

The one I posted before was Hittite.

Here is a nice timeline by Beverley Davis:
[h=3]2500 bce[/h]

• The Sumerians of Ur use onagers, controlled with nose rings that often leave them bloody, to pull heavy chariots.

Royal Standard of Ur[h=3]2000 bce[/h]

• Celts enter Europe with their small, gaited horses; bays and tobianos are common. Their goddess is Epona, who gives her name to the word “pony.” Austurcons, Galacians, and Garranos are descendants of the Celtic pony. (DNA testing has confirmed relationships between the breeds, as well as a relationship between the Sorraia, Konik, and the recreated Tarpan.)
• Primitive wagons dating from this time have been found in excellent condition in Armenia. These are the oldest known wagons in the world.
• The Elamites first mention a horse people called the Kassites.
• The European wild horse is almost extinct.

Celtic Horsemen in Art[h=3]1900–1800 bce[/h]

• Indo-European horsemen arrive in Asia Minor. King Anittas of the Hittites follows and sacks the cities of the indigenous people, including Hattusas, an important Hatti city. Prior to this time there were no domestic horses in Asia Minor, the Middle East, or Africa.

Hittite chariot team from Metropolitan Museum of Art[h=3]1800 bce[/h]

• Damascus, Syria, is the center of the trade in donkeys. Large, white riding donkeys and gently gaited donkeys for women are two of the types sold here.

[h=3]1759 bce[/h]

• The Hyksos, believed to be from the Phoenician city of Ashkelon (also spelled Ashqelon, classical Ascalon or Askalon), a city on the coastal plain of Palestine, invade and conquer Egypt, introducing the horse and wheel. These are the first horses to enter Africa. They are probably of the Hittite strain, based on the politics and alliances of that time.

Userhat hunting with red and white chariot horses[h=3]1750 bce[/h]

• The Hittite Old Kingdom is founded by Hattusilis I, and Hattusas is his capital. Hittite horses rank among the first horses in the Middle East. Artwork shows that they belong to the same family of horses that gives rise to the Arabian.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp177_horses.html

 

[LeBrok]

I don't know about Iranian or Egyptian chariots, but I do know that Celtic chariots of a later period often had scythe blades affixed to the wheels. Can you imagine one of those things managing to break a line of infantry and run amuck? I imagine the number of casualties would be enormous by the standards of the day. And if a group of chariots swung around a group of infantry while archers on the chariots fired into the ranks of the infantry, that would probably be quite effective too. Likely chariots were only effective on open ground, but if I was an infantryman on open ground and saw some chariots coming toward me, and if there was a river or some woods nearby, it would be difficult to resist the temptation to break rank and run for cover.

As for why chariots were better than riders, horsemen weren't an effective fighting force until the stirrup was invented.

This is Assyrian archer on a horse without the stirrup.

In this case we have one archer per one horse. In case of chariots we have two horses pulling 2-3 people, one driver, on with a shield and one archer. One archer on a horse have same firepower as chariot with 3 men and is faster. For the cost of one fully loaded chariot we can furnish 3-4 horse archers. Actually one archer can shoot one horse and the whole expensive chariot is crippled during a battle. I think at the end of a day this was a demise of chariots and they were abandoned as war weapons.
I think they had mostly psychological impact on infantry, especially the ones who saw chariots the first time.

 

[Aberdeen]

Turkic people conquered Central Asia from the Iranic people very late in history. Thousands of years after the evolution of Iranic people. So, you are jumbling together different time frames!’.

This so called Russian guy IS actually an ACADEMIC and the author of the so called 'Armenian Model'. According to me of all scientist he comes very close to the truth! And I'm not even talking about people like Renfrew or even Mallory who iss till very active and energetic in writing new papers.

Peope like you never expected that R1b came from West Asia. People like you never expectedthis kind of result of this R1a research. People like you never expected that some Yamna Horizon people were dark pigmented etc. All the current EVIDENCES are 100% against your ideas!
And the onlything what I can say is that time will learn. And I’m 100% positive that allthe future scientific articles will cause you a huge heart attack, hahaha.

So, are you deliberately misreading what I said? I said that Central Asia was Iranian for a long time before it was anything else, apparently because Central Asia was the Iranian homeland. How is that jumbling together different time frames?

I still have no idea who that Russian guy is or what he's saying. And what did Renfrew or Mallory say that supports your theories? Provide specific references to publications that are written in English and are publicly available if you want me to take you seriously. I'm beginning to think that you're just doing some weird kind of performance art with all this unsupported argument, and it's not really worth the bother of arguing with you. I realize some people have argued for an Anatolian homeland for the Indo-Europeans, but at this point the evidence pointing to the steppes seems so overwhelming that other theories are no being discarded by the experts.

 

[Aberdeen]

wiki has some more interesting info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot According to wiki Sumerian vehicles are MUCH older than Andronovo vehicles and Andronovo culture is 'at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture'. In turn Yamna was derived from Maykop. And Maykop from Sumerians / Leyla-Tepe culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

Um, about that link? It says this.

"The earliest fully developed true chariots known are from the chariot burials of the Andronovo (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka Eurasian culture in modern Russia and Kazakhstan from around 2000 BC. This culture is at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture. It built heavily fortified settlements, engaged in bronze metallurgy on an industrial scale and practiced complex burial rituals reminiscent of rituals known from the Rigveda and the Avesta. The Sintashta-Petrovka chariot burials yield the earliest spoke-wheeled true chariots. The Andronovo culture over the next few centuries spread across the steppes from the Urals to the Tien Shan."

 

[Alan]

You can't understand my (bad) English or maybe you're trying to make me look ridiculous. By modern I mean compared to more ancient Iranic peoples. The Medes lived only 3000 years ago, while people like Mitanni, Kassites and Hittites already existed 3500 years ago. The Medes became known as Medes after the Hittites and Mitanni were gone.

You are making yourself look bad. Why are you throwing with harsh words around if anyone does not agree with you. I am not saying your theories are entirely wrong or incorrect but
there are studies for and against the thesis that R1a evolved in Western Asia. So why are you acting like your hypothesis is the best and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Silesian]

You are making yourself look bad. Why are you throwing with harsh words around if anyone does not agree with you. I am not saying your theories are entirely wrong or incorrect but
there are studies for and against the thesis that R1a evolved in Western Asia. So why are you acting like your hypothesis is the best and everyone else is wrong.

He is not making himself look bad at all. He is being attacked for his belief that the scientific paper on which this thread is based on is correct.

"Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a."

He is challenging currently held ideas.Why do some members mock him for having a contrary viewpoint of R1a coming from Europe, but from Western Asia, one in which is provided by science? If you want, attack the paper and the scientists that authored it. Goga is just pointing out what he sees as flaws.

Perhaps it is up to J.P. Mallory to explain his position, 3:50 seconds into his lecture why he " has total distrust" and how he figures the spread happened of R1a, based on his maps and theory in the lecture posted below, with males coming from the West. How Andronovo and those 4000 year old chariots spread east to west Mitanni ? If Tocharians R1a are really Iranians like the second video points out 52:00 domesticated cereals and pigs from steppe lands, or " andronovo" somehow fit with kurgan Volga expansion theories of PIE ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tqVQHwFw

Tocharian also belongs to PIE tree.

 

[Alan]

He is not making himself look bad at all. He is being attacked for his belief that the scientific paper on which this thread is based on is correct.



He is challenging currently held ideas.Why do some members mock him for having a contrary viewpoint of R1a coming from Europe, but from Western Asia, one in which is provided by science? If you want, attack the paper and the scientists that authored it. Goga is just pointing out what he sees as flaws.

Perhaps it is up to J.P. Mallory to explain his position, 3:50 seconds into his lecture why he " has total distrust" and how he figures the spread happened of R1a, based on his maps and theory in the lecture posted below, with males coming from the West. How Andronovo and those 4000 year old chariots spread east to west Mitanni ? If Tocharians R1a are really Iranians like the second video points out 52:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tqVQHwFw

As I wrote. I did not criticize him for his views. I clearly wrote I do not see his theory as entirely wrong. The problem is that he is becoming harsher in his tone sometimes almost aggressive. (the thing with Polish people being Slavic and wannabe Aryans etc, and racist nationalism etc. You can't accuse a whole nation of being racist wannabe Aryans because of the view of one person). Not his views are problematic but the way he often presents it, mixed with too much emotions. If he wants his views accepted, he must be able to tolerate other views.

And I repeat I think only two places make sense as place of R1a origin. Either West or South Central Asia.

So no I do not disagree with him on this view but I rather support his view (not entirely though).

By the way, alone the fact that Yamnaya people were on average darker skinned than modern East Europeans, speaks for an rather Southern origin of these people. So considering an European (around Poland) origin of R1a* doesn't make much sense to me. It rather looks like they came from South.

 

[Alan]

I do not agree with listing Indo Iranian entirely under z93.

I am sure some groups of them had a significant frequency of z283 (in Western Asia/Pontic Caspian Steppes) and m420 too. Beside that there was definitely other major lineages which will be found in the near future. Like R1b, R2a, J2 and J1b, G and I.


For example the ancient Alans were definitely G2a. Even those who moved into Europe. I know that because I have seen some Guy from 23andme who is an Jasz from Hungary and even he is (just like the Ossetians) G2a. More about Jasz

The Jasz people were a nomadic Sarmatian tribe which settled in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary during the 13th century.^[1] Their name is almost certainly related to that of the Iazyges, one of the Sarmatian Alanic tribes which, along with the Roxolani, reached the borders of Dacia during the late 1st century BC (the city of Iași is named for them). Residual elements of these tribes, ancestors of the Jasz people, remained behind in the central North Caucasus, mingling with Caucasian peoples to form the present-day Ossetes.

So Ossetians are not "alanified Caucasians" but rather the Alans always lived on the southern shores of Sarmatia in the Northern Caucasus. The Sarmatians were made off several tribes. The Alans must have been G2a with some I and R1b, while the Roxalani R1a*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people

G1 also has a specific Iranic and Caucasian distribution.

Especially among Kurds and Ossetians there is a significant percentage of Haplogroup I too.

Haplogroup J2 is found in all Iranic groups, even those in South_Central Asia.

R1b is particularly significant in Western Iranian groups + Ossetians.

R2a is found in all Indo-Iranian groups.

J1b Has a specific Iranic distribution and is found among Kurds and Northern Iranians.

R1a is found in significant percentage among all Iranian groups expect Ossetians who are more dominant in G2a.

 

[LeBrok]

He is challenging currently held ideas.Why do some members mock him for having a contrary viewpoint of R1a coming from Europe, but from Western Asia, one in which is provided by science? If you want, attack the paper and the scientists that authored it. Goga is just pointing out what he sees as flaws.

I don't believe you noticed but nobody here argues either R1a started around Iran area or not. This wasn't IE culture and happened 20 thousand years ago. This thread is about Indo European split, to Europeans and Indo-Iranians about 5 thousand years ago (15 thousand years after R1a!) where Z93 were dominant haplogroup, or at least a very good signature and indicator of Indo-Iranians. Notice that the paper sets time of diversification into Z93 and Z282 but not a place. However we can infer the place from archaeological, written and language material and perhaps Z93 spread.

 

[Silesian]

I do not agree with listing Indo Iranian entirely under z93.

I am sure some groups of them had a significant frequency of z283 (in Western Asia/Pontic Caspian Steppes) and m420 too. Beside that there was definitely other major lineages which will be found in the near future. Like R1b, R2a, J2 and J1b, G and I.


For example the ancient Alans were definitely G2a. Even those who moved into Europe. I know that because I have seen some Guy from 23andme who is an Jasz from Hungary and even he is (just like the Ossetians) G2a. More about Jasz


So Ossetians are not "alanified Caucasians" but rather the Alans always lived on the southern shores of Sarmatia in the Northern Caucasus. The Sarmatians were made off several tribes. The Alans must have been G2a with some I and R1b, while the Roxalani R1a*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people

G1 also has a specific Iranic and Caucasian distribution.

Especially among Kurds and Ossetians there is a significant percentage of Haplogroup I too.

Haplogroup J2 is found in all Iranic groups, even those in South_Central Asia.

R1b is particularly significant in Western Iranian groups + Ossetians.

R2a is found in all Indo-Iranian groups.

J1b Has a specific Iranic distribution and is found among Kurds and Northern Iranians.

R1a is found in significant percentage among all Iranian groups expect Ossetians who are more dominant in G2a.

I don't want to veer of the Iranian R1a theme suggested by this paper. However I have a couple of questions.
Do you believe true the results IJ-M429* were reported to have been observed in the Iranian plateau (Grugni et al. 2012)?
Do you believe true the errors that were made in dating ydna I in Europe ?

I1 is estimated to be 4000 to 5000 years old (the now outdated "15,000 -20,000 years ago in Iberia" information was wrong), and confirmed by the single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, known as M253.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

Do you believe true G2a3 has a presence older than both R1a and R1b in Europe?

The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA testing as carrying haplogroup G2a were five found in the Avellaner cave burial site for farmers in northeastern Spain and were dated by radiocarbon dating to about 7000 years ago.^[5] At the Neolithic cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, north central Germany, with burial artifacts belonging to the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK). This skeleton could not be dated by radiocarbon dating, but other skeletons there were dated to between 5,100 and 6,100 years old. The most detailed SNP mutation identified was S126 (L30), which defines G2a3[

Do you believe true Lurs/Kurds and Ossetians are a related nomadic people with common roots ?

Lurs are a mixture of aboriginal Indo-Iranian tribes, originating from Central Asia. Michael M. Gunter states that they are closely related to the Kurds but that they "apparently began to be distinguished from the Kurds 1,000 years ago." He adds that the Sharafnama of Sharaf Khan Bidlisi "mentioned two Lur dynasties among the five Kurdish dynasties that had in the past enjoyed royalty or the highest form of sovereignty or independence."^[10] In the Mu'jam Al-Buldan of Yaqut al-Hamawi mention is made of the Lurs as a Kurdish tribe living in the mountains between Khuzestan and Isfahan. The term Kurd according to Richard Frye was used for all Iranian nomads (including the population of Luristan as well as tribes in Kuhistan and Baluchis in Kirman) for all nomads, whether they were linguistically connected to the Kurds or not.^[12]

Considering their NRY variation, the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23).^[13]

Do you believe the Grugni results with regards what they classify as: Zoroastrians

Zoroastrians are the oldest religious community in Iran; in fact the first followers have been the proto-Indo-Iranians. With the Islamic invasions they were persecuted and now exist as a minority in Iran.

R1b1a2* 15.4% Tehran Zoroastians- R1b1a2a* 7.7% Yazd Zoroastrians

Tehran-Rey-Ragha, also the same where the Magi-Kurdish Mangi are from, which some historians connect Zoroaster and or the priests and fire temples ?

An important historical city in the area of modern-day Tehran, now absorbed by it, is known as Rey, which is etymologically connected to the Old Persian and Avestan Ragha.^[10]

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

 

[Nobody1]

Just show me where scholars are claiming that the Scythians were native to the Black Sea (or even Pontic-Caspian Sea region and NOT Central Asia? You really don't have any clue what you’re e talking about, hahaha.

The Indo-European Scythians dwelled in the trans-Volga steppes; And now take a wild guess which cultures (and from where) expanded into the trans-Volga area; I will give you a tip:

George Erdosy - The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (1995)
This hypothesis fits the archaeological evidence of the Pontic-Caspian steppes well, exhibiting an unbroken continuity of very similar cultures from the Early Bronze Age to the Iron Age as follows: Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture c. 3500-2800 B.C. > Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture (Gimbutas 1956: 74-89) c. 2800-2000 B.C. > Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, the former in the Volga steppes in 2000-800 B.C. and the latter in the southern Urals, Kazakhstan, and southern Siberia in 1800-900 B.C. > Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.. If the Pit grave culture was still Proto-Indo-European, the Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture was probably Proto-Aryan.

Which of course was followed by > ''Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.'' - who than along with the caspian-pontic Indo-European Cimmerians migrated to the south Caucasus via the Caucasus (Sennacherib-letter/Herodotus etc.);

And another one of your false assumptions is that the Caspian-Pontic steppes were completely isolated;
I want to underscore that no scholar that claimed the Caspian-Pontic as the Urheimat also claimed it was completely isolated and self creating - those are just your fictitious assumptions; In fact there was extensive cultural exchange and contact/influences between the Caspian-Pontic and the SouthCaucasus/NearEast; I would copy and paste some stuff from Philip L. Kohl 'The Making of Bronze Age Eurasia (2007)' but i dont want to over-stress you with academic info again;

 

[Aberdeen]

I don't believe you noticed but nobody here argues either R1a started around Iran area or not. This wasn't IE culture and happened 20 thousand years ago. This thread is about Indo European split, to Europeans and Indo-Iranians about 5 thousand years ago (15 thousand years after R1a!) where Z93 were dominant haplogroup, or at least a very good signature and indicator of Indo-Iranians. Notice that the paper sets time of diversification into Z93 and Z282 but not a place. However we can infer the place from archaeological, written and language material and perhaps Z93 spread.

Maybe I misunderstood what Goga was saying, but I got the impression he was arguing that both the development of R1a and its split into two major divisions happened in what is now Iran, which is why I pointed out that the two events are widely separated in time so wouldn't necessarily have happened in the same place. As for whether the paper specifies a place for the divergence into two major groups, the abstract does say:

"Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran."

And that's why I said I wouldn't place too much importance on modern clade diversification in predicting where that clade may have been commonly found when the diversification initially occurred. Not when we're talking about diversification that's believed to have started 5800 years before the present.