Cultural divide between the US and Europe

[Elizabeth]

What many Europeans cannot understand is why the portion of the American people who are disgruntled about the government, education system or whatever, don't take the streets or make nation-wide strikes until things change. Some European (the French, Belgians, Italians...) are specialists at that game. No government can hope to do something completely at odd with people's wishes without being threatened to be overthrown. Look at what happened when the leaders of the UK, Italy and Spain supported Bush's plan to invade Iraq. There were 2 million peopl in the streets of London, 1 million i Rome and hundreds of thousands in several major Spanish cities. As a result, Berlusconi changed his mind overnight, the Spaniards ousted their government at the next election, and only Blair remains because he has done enough good things to compensate, although it is very unlikely that he gets reelected just because of his assciation with Bush.

Does paralysing your city, bringing commercial traffic to a standstill in defense of the pensions or benefits or whatever you get from your union make you a critical thinker ? In the same way that taking an anti-war stance in line with 80-90% of your fellow citizens makes you somehow more rational or clear-eyed and sophisticated than Americans who are split virtually 50-50 on Bush's policies ? Being a dictator or authoritarian leader in that context will need to be fleshed out, it isn't a word to throw around lightly. Anyway, I do listen to the BBC, and trust it as an investigative source more than CNN or the other cable channels here in the states, so was speaking more to the lack of anti-European discussions that go on around these boards.... :souka:

 

[mad pierrot]

What many Europeans cannot understand is why the portion of the American people who are disgruntled about the government, education system or whatever, don't take the streets or make nation-wide strikes until things change.

But they do take to the street! Believe me, my sister who is a journalist has gotten arrested more than once over the last few years covering these events! Specifically, I remember when she was arrested a few years ago in protest in the middle of downtown Chicago, which brought the loop to dead stop until it was broken up. I know protestors who get arrested annually at places like the School of the America's, the E.L.F. base, corporate meetings, etc. American's don't get much credit for many of their grass root movements, but they happen. Also, I really don't get mad at people, European or otherwise, who aren't aware of such things. They are as much a victim of the mass media as anywhere else. These kind of events simply don't get the media attention they deserve. Also, one disadvantage that America has when it comes to organizing nation-wide efforts is it's geography. Sometime the socialists in Madison haven't a clue what the socialists in Detroit are doing, let alone New York.

having their heads in the clouds, is the doubel-standard of the US government.

Head in the clouds, no. (Well, maybe a little.) Is the double standard there? Yes. Maciamo, you should take a look at the fine publication known as The Onion. A wonderful newspaper devoted entirely to mocking everything that's wrong. -Just one example of some of the wonderful satire out there. Believe me, people know. (Well, maybe not everyone. Personally I think apathy is a bigger problem.)



I am in agreement about America's hypocritical standards. Take for example, democracy. Who isn't cynical about government in America? But if we're so damn cynical about our own democracy, how the hell do we expect to for it to function anywhere else?


That being said, let's all take a deep breath and chill. I know this is going to be a heated discussion and I'm enjoying it so far but let's not have petty difficulties get in our way.

:sorry:

Heh, I have conservative friends who are always complaining about the damn liberals and their efforts....

:blush:

 

[Maciamo]

... so was speaking more to the lack of anti-European discussions that go on around these boards.... :souka:

You are free to initiate such discussions. However, when I check the news I rarely see anything worth complaining about in Europe that is not already being taken care of by European ctizens. The big news about Europe are usually about the EU's construction, the tense relations with the US, sports, events or accidents of some kinds. But I'd be delighted if some non-European could come with some factual and well-argued criticism about anything that should be changed in Europe. I have written a lot about this when I was at university, and submitted these "critical ideas" to some of my economics professor, one of whom became Finance Minister the next year (and applied part of my ideas for change - but probably because it was in line wit his own).

 

[Maciamo]

But they do take to the street! Believe me, my sister who is a journalist has gotten arrested more than once over the last few years covering these events!

That is also part of the problem in the US. People protesting against the government get arrested. I won't say it never happens in Europe, but it doesn't when the number of protester is considerable enough and the issue of national concern.

The US government has now become master in protecting itslef from its own people. No wonder that the US government is usually seen with fear, suspicion or disdain. They try to control people via the media, to force their ideals (including religion) on the people, and make their citizens good patriots, and hopefully label anybody who disagree with them as unpatriotic, and more recently even terrorists. If such a thing ever happened in Europe, the government would be forced to resign and those politicians sued in courts. Democracy is power to the people, not to a few selfish politcians. But Europe is very far from perfect in my view. I wish there could be more referendum (like in Spain last Sunday about the EU Constitution) for all major political decisions.

These kind of events simply don't get the media attention they deserve.

And do you know why ? Well, who controls the media ? Not the government itslef, but a few business millionaires who control the government (including the infamous Carlisle Group of Bush Sr. & Co).

Also, one disadvantage that America has when it comes to organizing nation-wide efforts is it's geography.

That's true, but at least the population is more concentrated around some huge metropolitan areas (NY, Chicago, Detroit, LA, Miami...) than in Europe.

Just one example of some of the wonderful satire out there. Believe me, people know. (Well, maybe not everyone. Personally I think apathy is a bigger problem.)

But not evryone is unhappy about the current situation. All those religious extremist from the so-called "Jesusland" are slowly getting all that they want (a president to their image, nationwide religious censorship,..). That is the biggest problem in the States. People are too divided ideologically, and not everybody can win (which explains the current 50-50 divide over Bush). It seems to me that Europe is more culturally divided, but more united ideologically.

 

[mad pierrot]

I'll start from the bottum up.

It seems to me that Europe is more culturally divided, but more united ideologically.

Agreed. America is contrary to this, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

But not evryone is unhappy about the current situation.

Of course not. Remember, some people are actually benefiting from all these shenanigans. Things wouldn't be happening if there wasn't money being made somewhere.

And do you know why ? Well, who controls the media ? Not the government itslef, but a few business millionaires who control the government (including the infamous Carlisle Group of Bush Sr. & Co).

Duh. Tell me something I don't know. :homer:

They try to control people via the media, to force their ideals (including religion) on the people, and make their citizens good patriots, and hopefully label anybody who disagree with them as unpatriotic, and more recently even terrorists. If such a thing ever happened in Europe, the government would be forced to resign and those politicians sued in courts.

Such a thing did happen. Often. (But mostly ended after WWII.)

That is also part of the problem in the US. People protesting against the government get arrested.

I wholeheartedly agree. The U.S., frankly, has alot of problems. But hey, we're working on them, give us some slack. One thing I have noticed, however, is most Americans, (including me, to an extent) aren't overly fond of other people telling us how to run our own country. Which, I know, is ironic considering how much we do it to other people.

More to come later, I have to go head to town to buy groceries!

:biggrin:

 

[kirei_na_me]

Had I been American, I would have left the country at once.

Well, easier said than done, I guess. I have talked about leaving this country, but it's mostly all talk.

We have bought a nice house here, in the nice countryside, where the air is clean(er) and where the schools are good. No one is uptight about anything much, unless maybe some dogs running free who are harassing the neighbor's cat, and it may seem silly to some, but I like the fact that my family is near. I don't think I would trade it for anything right now.

Of course, as time goes by, I might be more apt to moving somewhere else. I know for a fact that if there is ever a draft after my sons are of age, they will be on a plane to Japan. The biggest benefit of dual-citizenship, in my eyes.

See, having a family of your own makes you see things a little differently. It is much easier for older people who have grown children or people who have no children at all to just pack up and move. Take my cousin, for example. She's one of the thousands of people who are trying to acquire Canadian citizenship since the outcome of this past election. She is a lesbian and she and her partner of 20+ years want to move to Canada so that they might be able to have more rights... besides the fact that they just hate everything about the U.S. now. It's easy for them to do that, though, because they are older, they have no children, and their immediate families are almost gone, with the exception of some siblings. They really have nothing much keeping them here.

 

[Maciamo]

Well, easier said than done, I guess. I have talked about leaving this country, but it's mostly all talk.
...

I understand that it is not always easy, especially with children. Age however is not a major factor for me. I left my parent's house for good (well still visited about once a year ) when I was 18, and studied in various countries (thanks to the numerous exchange programmes).

Even now that I have more or less setlled in Japan, I never really know how long I will be staying here. I could just decide any day to move to another country whenever I feel like it. Sometimes I really feel like leaving because I feel so annoyed by the constant police checks for nothing, and the fact that the Japanese always see foreigners as "henna gaijin" that cannot possibly speak their language and understand their culture. If only this can make me move somewhere else, then the above-mentioned things about the US (esp. Bush) would have much more decisive effects. The problem is always, moving where ? No country is perfect, but some are better suited to one's personality and expectations.

 

[Duo]

I like moving, I think i would like to stay in Europe, maybe italy, spain, even france, why not, although i am torn, after my studies i don't know, i have come to love Brussels a lot, but part of me feels the brussels era should end, but i don't know, moving to america....... could be possible, but these recent years I have grown very european(whatever that is ) but don't know, for those that like both EUrope and the US, i think Canada is a good compromise

@ the topic

There is one thing that I think Europe should be grateful to the Americans, and that's their will to take action, especially in these recent times in the recent Balkan wars. I for one am thankful the US for mobilizing up and fast along with the UK and preventing another catostrophe in Kosovo after the European fiasco in Bosnia, where France ( a sort of underground ally of the Serbs) along with other European powers told the US to stay off, and just sat back and saw thousands of innocent Bosnias slaughtered, and it took the US to fix things up with the Dayton agreement). Europeans can act all high and mighty and whatever they want with the EU now, but let's not forget that they are responsible for other things, one only needs to look at Africa...... I hope that the EU can start a new era for eruope, but one where the West stops acting superior to East europe especially, and stops their favoritisms and still discriminating ways. Soooo, western europeans can criticise all they want, but they still have their own issues to deal with, as do all countries.