E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?

[Malsori]

Where does Cruciani say this ?

I have cruciani saying that E came from the Nile delta as well as the upper Nile ( egypt and ethiopia)

On the other hand, when only E-V13
chromosomes from western Asia are considered, the resulting network (fig. 4B) does not show such a star-like shape, and a much earlier TMRCA of 11.5 ky (95% CI 6.8–17.0; fig. 1) is obtained. These results open the possibility of recognizing time windows for 1) population movements from
the E-M78 homeland in northeastern Africa to Eurasia and
2) population movements from western Asia into Europe
and later within Europe.


The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite
variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in
western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern
Africa is the result of a more recent introgression.

Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid
of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in
the Near East/Anatolia.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

 

[MOESAN]

I think on the same lines. 20.000 yrs can change a lot in terms of human evolution, considering blonde hair is roughly 11.000 years old. Autosomally, somebody from the balkans with E v-13 is the same as anyone else around him.

everybody seam forgetting than more than a mutation occurred upon pigmentation genes, even for eyes and hairs, it's of no use mentioning skin colour...
not to say your intervention is wrong, only to point at the uncertainty of some dates...
that said, I agree that phenotypes, by selection AND by crossings, can diverge from Y-haplo's repartition.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

Back To The Initial Topic Though. Another Possibility For E In Europe Is That It Crossed Into Spain From North Africa When Sea Levels Were Lower, Possibly In The LGM. Although The High Frequency In The Balkans Would Seem To Suggest An Entry From This Area, The Relative Absence From The Middle East Seems To Go For The Crossing Strait From Africa. This Would Also Explain The Early Presence Of 7000 Years Ago In Spain. So My Point Benig That This Subclade Could Be Not From The Middle East Or The Balkans.

 

[albanopolis]

Since I don't understand genetics can anyone make it simple for me?
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?
2)Judging from todays population of E V13 carriers in Europe what could have been the initial crowd of E V13?
3)Since there are allegations that the initial E V13 came by see is it possible to judge if the crowd was male only,or male and females. Since at ancient times there was not enough knowledge about surroundings one possibility is that the ship lost the derection and ended up by chance in the Ballkans. And males only.

 

[LeBrok]

Since I don't understand genetics can anyone make it simple for me?
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?

Keep in mind that E, I or R1a are just a designations of mail Y chromosome. Y DNA constitutes only 2% of our whole DNA. Genraly speaking you are 98% local guy, even if your Y DNA turned to be of some "foreign" kind.

3)Since there are allegations that the initial E V13 came by see is it possible to judge if the crowd was male only,or male and females

To figure out possible female evolutionary or traveling past one have to test mtDNA, the mitochondrial DNA material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

 

[Anthro-inclined]

Since I don't understand genetics can anyone make it simple for me?
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?
2)Judging from todays population of E V13 carriers in Europe what could have been the initial crowd of E V13?
3)Since there are allegations that the initial E V13 came by see is it possible to judge if the crowd was male only,or male and females. Since at ancient times there was not enough knowledge about surroundings one possibility is that the ship lost the derection and ended up by chance in the Ballkans. And males only.

Basics- if you are male you have a dad and a mom, you inherit a y chromosome from daddy and an x from mommy, all males descend from the ydna of one man in Africa that lived over 140000 years ago but over time that line mutated into many different haplogroups, its the same deal with Mtdna. the y dna that you get from dad is what we are talking about, Mtdna is what mom gives you and that is different from what we are discussing.

Y dna- So now you know that all us boys have y dna, now like 26000 years ago a man walked around east africa and had some boys and his boys had boys and so on, each subsequent boy carried this mans y dna marker, which was E1b1b, and eventually his marker would mutate,spread,migrate to cover north Africa the mid east and Europe.

Specific- Now over time his y line would venture out of Africa and migrate into Europe and what we are trying to figure out is if the E1b1b1a1b marker developed in the Mid east or Balkans. Also worthy of note, i see you are Albanian, so it is quite possible you may carry this mans y line.

 

[kamani]

1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?

Not that it matters much, but just to answer your question...
The original E v-13 looked white with a slight sub-saharan influence, like berbers from North-Africa, who are predominantly E1b1b (88% or more). The few ones that made it all the way to europe were males who mixed with the local women (mtdna in europe is mostly paleolithic). So don't get your hopes up and enroll your boys in basketball classes just yet (joke).

 

[zanipolo]

Not that it matters much, but just to answer your question...
The original E v-13 looked white with a slight sub-saharan influence, like berbers from North-Africa, who are predominantly E1b1b (88% or more). The few ones that made it all the way to europe were males who mixed with the local women (mtdna in europe is mostly paleolithic). So don't get your hopes up and enroll your boys in basketball classes just yet (joke).

Everybody was black when the first Hgs left Africa, people changed to lighter coloured skin over time depending on where they lived. The skin colour changes pigmentation to take in vitamin D.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

Not that it matters much, but just to answer your question...
The original E v-13 looked white with a slight sub-saharan influence, like berbers from North-Africa, who are predominantly E1b1b (88% or more). The few ones that made it all the way to europe were males who mixed with the local women (mtdna in europe is mostly paleolithic). So don't get your hopes up and enroll your boys in basketball classes just yet (joke).

Nobody can know exactly what the first E1b1b man looked like, but it is most probable that he had physical features more similar to sub Saharan Africans than to Berbers, as that most(if not all) populations in the upper paleolithic, had dark skin pigmentation's and the climate in which he lived probably opted for a darker pigment. Also that bit about only male E1b1b migrating into Europe without women is ridiculous, they didn't come by plane, the migration most likely took thousands of years to complete and in order for the lineage to continue they would need women migrating with them, so they most likely migrated into Europe with middle eastern Mtdna lineages, or north African ones.

 

[albanopolis]

Proof that E V13 is Albanian halogroup:
1) The majority halogroup in Albania is E v13. This halogroup is the backbone of Albanian nation. This halogroup can not originate from Greeks for the following reasons:
a) Greeks have a majority J halogroup as the backbone of their nation. Had E been the people that build the ancient Civilisation of Greece, since there are more E people in Albania then Illyria should have been equally or more civilized. In fact it wasn't
b)Two more isolated places of Greece, namely Crete and Cypros have minimal amount of E by Ballkan standarts. Had E been the majority or Greek origin those are the places where E should have been preserved.
c) Sicily was once Greek. Again the majority halogroup in Greek part of Sicily is J. Minority E.) Greeks were and are civilised people. Others were barbarians. Including the ancesters of Albanians namely Illyrians. Knowing that two worst barbarians in history of man, namely Hitler and Bonoparte, were E people then, E can not be Greek since barbarians carry it, and Greeks were not barbarians.
d) Since Albanians were and are barbarians and carry E, and E has produced well known barbarians, Then E must be Albanian.
e)Since Greeks carry E and E is barbarian, then E must have come from Albanians to Greece.
f) This proves that today Greece is partly "New Albania" which is why sometimes reflects barbaric behavier.
Proved. Bingo. E is Albanian halogroup.

 

[Eldritch]

Proof that E V13 is Albanian halogroup:
1) The majority halogroup in Albania is E v13. This halogroup is the backbone of Albanian nation. This halogroup can not originate from Greeks for the following reasons:
a) Greeks have a majority J halogroup as the backbone of their nation. Had E been the people that build the ancient Civilisation of Greece, since there are more E people in Albania then Illyria should have been equally or more civilized. In fact it wasn't
b)Two more isolated places of Greece, namely Crete and Cypros have minimal amount of E by Ballkan standarts. Had E been the majority or Greek origin those are the places where E should have been preserved.
c) Sicily was once Greek. Again the majority halogroup in Greek part of Sicily is J. Minority E.) Greeks were and are civilised people. Others were barbarians. Including the ancesters of Albanians namely Illyrians. Knowing that two worst barbarians in history of man, namely Hitler and Bonoparte, were E people then, E can not be Greek since barbarians carry it, and Greeks were not barbarians.
d) Since Albanians were and are barbarians and carry E, and E has produced well known barbarians, Then E must be Albanian.
e)Since Greeks carry E and E is barbarian, then E must have come from Albanians to Greece.
f) This proves that today Greece is partly "New Albania" which is why sometimes reflects barbaric behavier.
Proved. Bingo. E is Albanian halogroup.

Haplogroup E-V13 isn't Albanian nor it belongs exclusively to them, actually highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia according to Steven Bird.
And your reasoning is that of a kid.

 

[kamani]

Nobody can know exactly what the first E1b1b man looked like, but it is most probable that he had physical features more similar to sub Saharan Africans than to Berbers, as that most(if not all) populations in the upper paleolithic, had dark skin pigmentation's and the climate in which he lived probably opted for a darker pigment.

I agree that at some point in time everybody was black, but this is not the case here.
E v-13 came to europe in the neolithic not upper paleolithic and we know how it looked like because we're lucky enough to have samples of its parent clades in their natural habitat, namely berbers of above-saharan africa, and they're not black.

Also that bit about only male E1b1b migrating into Europe without women is ridiculous, they didn't come by plane, the migration most likely took thousands of years to complete and in order for the lineage to continue they would need women migrating with them, so they most likely migrated into Europe with middle eastern Mtdna lineages, or north African ones.

Maybe they brought some middle eastern women if they came from the Anatolia route, but it is a known fact that women are not very good migrators. If the opposite was true how do you explain that every country in europe has very similar mtdna ?

 

[Anthro-inclined]

I agree that at some point in time everybody was black, but this is not the case here.
E v-13 came to europe in the neolithic not upper paleolithic and we know how it looked like because we're lucky enough to have samples of its parent clades in their natural habitat, namely berbers of above-saharan africa, and they're not black.

I wasn't talking about the V13 subclade, if you notice i said E1b1b were of darker skin pigmentation, and you cant base the physical appearance of the V13 people off the Berbers, if you know anything of north African historical geography, the region has changed from lush jungle over 10000 years to desert, so the physical appearance of the Berbers ancestors was most likely much different. Also please dont use Y dna to determine physical appearance, it represents less than 1 percent of the genome.

Maybe they brought some middle eastern women if they came from the Anatolia route, but it is a known fact that women are not very good migrators. If the opposite was true how do you explain that every country in europe has very similar mtdna ?

Every country in Europe has similar Y DNA to, it is a very genetically uniform continent so i dont see your point, and women will usually migrate with men, men are just more productive pro creators as they can have as many children as they want through their lives and are physically stronger, and because of this you see newer and more varied Y DNA than Mtdna.

 

[kamani]

Every country in Europe has similar Y DNA to, it is a very genetically uniform continent so i dont see your point

Not exactly; for example balkanic slavs are mostly I2a, british people are mostly R1b.

and women will usually migrate with men

Not really, for example, even with all the facilities of the 20-th century, the american west while being colonized had a shortage of women for a long time.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

Not exactly; for example balkanic slavs are mostly I2a, british people are mostly R1b.

even if the frequencies vary depending on the country, the basic HG's like I and R1b are mostly the same but with differing clades just like Mtdna, the most plausible explanation for E-V13 not having a Mtdna counterpart, would be that the lineage did not continue to pass on like the mens did, but that dosent mean that only men were part of the migration of E-V13.

Not really, for example, even with all the facilities of the 20-th century, the american west while being colonized had a shortage of women for a long time.

As a metis, i know exactly what you mean, and yes they procreated with the native women, but if it wasnt for the technological advents that allowed for prolonged travel and ocean crossing caravels and monarchy backed exploration, it would taken these men thousands of years to complete such a journey, so 10000 years ago, when technology as we know it was in its infancy, any great migration would take a really long time, and in order to preserve their genes, they would need to have women with them.

 

[Yetos]

What about 'mother' Jasmin and others?

how many grand mothers mothers came from Near East?

 

[albanopolis]

This kind of whitening because of sun light is kind of fishy. Why did not eskimo get a pale skin when everybody knows they have 20000 yrs in Amerika.

 

[albanopolis]

Can you explain to me what higher diversity means. Does it mean it has all posible existing E, let say the Berber E, the Egyptian E and so on.....

 

[zanipolo]

This kind of whitening because of sun light is kind of fishy. Why did not eskimo get a pale skin when everybody knows they have 20000 yrs in Amerika.

because ice is a reflectant so the skin needs a darkish colour for protection

 

[Anthro-inclined]

This kind of whitening because of sun light is kind of fishy. Why did not eskimo get a pale skin when everybody knows they have 20000 yrs in Amerika.

This Is Actually Not Completely Correct, Many Inuit Have Light Skin Pigmentation, And It Is Rare When They Carry Noticabley Darker Skin Pigmentations Than Europeans.
Skin Pigmentation Also Is Correlated To Lifestyle, In Northern Less Sunsoaked Areas, This Was The Case In Europe, Once Europe Recieved Agriculture It Is Believed That A Couple Thousand Years Later Euro Developed Lighter Skin.