Immigration Europe: Superiorly Enlightened & Tolerant

[Mike Cash]

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20041114&hn=13830

It's all Bush's fault, I suppose.

 

[RockLee]

we just don't see a terrorist threat in every muslim

 

[TwistedMac]

what's with all the pointing conservatives? is that like an american version of the japanese peace sign in every picture?

(...conservatives.. that's what you guys call those people, right? no?)

 

[Duo]

Um the thread title and the article seem to be impying the usual sarcastic comment. What's your point ? That Europe has issues with Islam? Sure it does. Everybody knows that. Just come out and say it plainly. Your comments reflect your negative view of Europe just cuz most of the ppl here don't like Bush, but that don't mean that they dont like the US. Criticizing somone doesn't mean that you hate them or dislike them. You sure ain't helping things out though in here with threads such as this.
Certainly Bush isn't helping by launching what is perceived to be my many muslims as a crusade against islam, so relations between middle-easterners and Westerners have gone worse lately cuz of the US lead war in Iraq.

 

[Fantt]

Mike Cash: Infinitely Humble and Gracious Victor

 

[Glenn]

I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and say that this is more about his saying that Bush isn't the root of all evil, everyone who voted for him is not stupid/evil, and just because he won doesn't mean the end of the world. I mean really, all he's seen is people whining about Bush winning the election and attacking everyone who voted for him, as well as some who didn't, like saying that everyone in the south is an idiot, etc. It seems that some people can't believe that there are people in the US who voted for Bush and are indeed smart, educated people. I know that comment is probably going to incite some smarta** comment, and that's exactly his point.[/stab in the dark]

Hell, I'll make it my point, too. I didn't vote for Bush, and I don't like him, but I was disgusted with the way that a lot of members here just made asinine remarks about the people who did. It almost made me hate the self-proclaimed more intelligent and enlightened democrats/liberals. I don't think that the problem is so much that mikecash is a sore winner as it is that a lot of people here are sore losers.

Now before people start giving me reasons why Bush is evil incarnate, I'll tell you that it's not necessary. I've heard and read it all before. I already said that I don't like him. There is no need to try to convert me. I just wish people had been a little more mature about the whole thing, but I guess it's pretty much over now. At any rate, anything that mikecash posts about liberals now was pretty much brought on by the people who were whining about Bush in the first place. This is just a case of reaping what you sow.

 

[Brooker]

I'll go ahead and say it... I blame the people who voted for Bush. I don't see how anyone who has their eyes open to what's going on and has the mental capacity to process that information could possibly want four more years of this. Just because Bush won, doesn't mean he's right. It just means he was (surprisingly) able to fool enough people into believing his BS. Bush is what he is, so whatever. But what is so disturbing about this election is that half the country thinks being a religiously fanatical, international bully is the right path for America.

 

[Glenn]

I'll go ahead and say it... I blame the people who voted for Bush. I don't see how anyone who has their eyes open to what's going on and has the mental capacity to process that information could possibly want four more years of this. Just because Bush won, doesn't mean he's right. It just means he was (surprisingly) able to fool enough people into believing his BS. Bush is what he is, so whatever. But what is so disturbing about this election is that half the country thinks being a religiously fanatical, international bully is the right path for America.

I think it's safe to assume that most people already knew how you felt. You've made that point obvious in many threads and posts. Everything that you typed came as absolutely no surprise to me, because it's been said before, and many times, by you and others.

The problem to me is that people just keep making comments like that and don't care about what the other side thinks. I must say that ever since I found out that mikecash was going to vote for Bush I was curious as to why he was going to do so. I wanted to know, because I know that he is an intelligent person, and he has done a fair amount of research. Maybe he knew something that I didn't. I didn't know, but I wanted to.

I guess I'm in the minority here, because I find it much more constructive to listen to why people with opposing views hold those views, because you just might learn something and you just might change your mind. It seems to me that that is the way to enlightenment, not claiming it because you only see one side of the coin and you agree with everyone you talk to because you all hold the same views.

Once again, don't take this as meaning that I'm pro-Bush. I just happen to like knowing why the other side thinks the way they do, and that wasn't allowed to happen around here because of so many people making ad hominem remarks about the other side being stupid. It was like an episode of Hannity and Colmes or something where no real discussion takes place, and people just engage in name-calling. Discuss the issues; don't make broad, sweeping comments like "all Bush supporters are idiots."

 

[Maciamo]

Mike,

Europe has a huge Muslim population. There are 1,4 million Muslm (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi) in the UK, 6 million Muslim in France (10% of the population !), 1,4 million in Italy, 3 million in Germany, etc. In total that is 25 million for the whole of Europe (not just EU, but also Albania, Bosnia, etc.). complete list here

Unfortunately, many Muslims in Western Europe have problem integrating into the society because of a huge gap in values and lifestyle. As most are recent economic immigrants (most came from the 1950's to now), they may have problem with the local language too. And considering the recent anti-Muslim feelings after 9/11 (even in Europe) and the fact that Muslims are usually very religious while most Europeans aren't and sometimes despise religion, create additional tensions.

What happened in the Netherlands is that 2 people have been assassinated recently, and the last was a director who made a movie about the treatment of women in the Islamic world. If even some Muslims are going to assassinate people because they criticise Islam, why did they come to Europe in the first place ? I am in favour of the expulsion of any Muslim that causes religion-related problems in Europe. If it were up to me, anybody caught proselytising would already be expelled, as it is against the freedom of religion and non-religion. People are free to believe in what they want, as long as they do not force it on other people. This is how most Europe understand freedom in general.

 

[mad pierrot]

I don't think this has gotten out of hand. Believe me, if you think this is bad, you should see some of the "discussions" I have...

Hey, we've got strong supporters on both sides. That's good. Homogeneity is boring. Besides, Mike knows that posting threads like this will draw comments from people who probably rabidly disagree with him. (Like me.)

 

[Glenn]

I don't think this has gotten out of hand. Believe me, if you think this is bad, you should see some of the "discussions" I have...

That's fine, but some people are acting like Mike is completely coming out of left field and just trying to antagonize all of the Kerry supporters (or Bush haters, whatever the case may be), when in fact it was a lot of the Kerry supporters/Bush haters who did the initial antagonizing. It just seems like hypocrisy to me. If you can dish it out, you should be able to take it, and don't cry when it comes back to you. But then again, maybe I'm the one misinterpreting the situation.

Hey, we've got strong supporters on both sides. That's good. Homogeneity is boring. Besides, Mike knows that posting threads like this will draw comments from people who probably rabidly disagree with him. (Like me.)

I agree that opposition isn't inherently bad, and diversity is interesting. But that doesn't mean that people should expect to be able to make general comments and assumptions about people and not be called on it. It also doesn't mean that calling other people stupid because they don't share your viewpoint is constructive.

As far as what Mike expects, we'll just have to wait for him to weigh in on the issue. If he doesn't have a problem with it, then I'll gladly shut up.

 

[Duo]

Mike,

Europe has a huge Muslim population. There are 1,4 million Muslm (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi) in the UK, 6 million Muslim in France (10% of the population !), 1,4 million in Italy, 3 million in Germany, etc. In total that is 25 million for the whole of Europe (not just EU, but also Albania, Bosnia, etc.). complete list here

About that, I will only just say that I don't think we could group together Balkan muslims with those that have come from the middle east and north Africa, seeing as how the latter ones share some kind of brotherhood of islam beleif, which is hardly found amongst Balkan muslims

I am in favour of the expulsion of any Muslim that causes religion-related problems in Europe. If it were up to me, anybody caught proselytising would already be expelled, as it is against the freedom of religion and non-religion. People are free to believe in what they want, as long as they do not force it on other people. This is how most Europe understand freedom in general.

Ha, my sentiments exactly. If you don't want to integrate then leave. European governments should take a tougher stance on situtuations such as this, I feel that they have been way too tolerant lately. The acts in the Netherlands are a drawback of this tolerance, in my view.


@ Bush not helping the relations between muslims and westerns, this is certainly true, and lately things are getting worse and worse, eveyone who has a chance to witness such relations can tell you that it is true.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

I do think that he has "something good" in his brains since he went to an "Ivy League" university in the East Coast. He just seems to be very ignorant though.
I am not saying he is stupid, he just looks that way: simply dumb, because of the way he speaks, smiles, looks.... :gomen: Bush just looks that way to me. Contrarily, I think highly of his father though..

Is it true that he never had a passport in his life before he became President? Or is it just a rumour? Meaning, he never went abroad in his life before he moved to the White House???

 

[Maciamo]

Is it true that he [Bush] never had a passport in his life before he became President? Or is it just a rumour? Meaning, he never went abroad in his life before he moved to the White House???

That is what they said in 'Fahrenheit 9/11' or 'the World according to Bush' (can't remember which one now). But that does not surprise me when I hear him talk about the world. What surprises me is that he hasn't even been to Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas or, well the Cayman Islands. He could also have had a passport and not use it to travel, but just as a piece of ID, as some people do in countries without ID cards like the US.

 

[No-name]

Does the President of the United States really need a passport? Who would check it? Does he go through customs? Do they search him or his luggage?

Hmmm, Just wondering....

 

[Fantt]

Have you guys noticed that Mike hasn't posted once in this thread after the first post? He's probably just sitting back and laughing and laughing.

 

[Maciamo]

Does the President of the United States really need a passport? Who would check it? Does he go through customs? Do they search him or his luggage?

It seems to me that it would be too easy for some people to pretend to be the president (note that the US president may be a well-known face, but what about other countries ?). What is more, there are many look-alike people, some so similar that it could dupe the authorities in some countries (esp. non-Western, less used to Western faces).

 

[Brooker]

Glenn wrote...

The problem to me is that people just keep making comments like that and don't care about what the other side thinks. I must say that ever since I found out that mikecash was going to vote for Bush I was curious as to why he was going to do so. I wanted to know, because I know that he is an intelligent person, and he has done a fair amount of research. Maybe he knew something that I didn't. I didn't know, but I wanted to.

I hear what you're saying. However, the few times I've had the opportunity to pick the brain of a Conservative, such as my father, the answers to why they support Bush are even more frightening than just the simple fact that they support him.

I'm not going to make sweeping generalizations about all Conservatives, but in the case of my father, who I consider to be one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, he doesn't even really like Bush, but he voted for Bush because my father is highly religious, strongly opposes abortion, and doesn't want America to seem weak in the eyes of the world. But really he would vote for anyone who opposed abortion no matter how much of an idiot he was. And I don't think it's wise to make such an important decision based on one issue and ignoring all of Bush's other mistakes.

I'm all for listening to the other side. But I've yet to hear any Bush supporters give reasons for doing so that didn't seem incredibly closed-minded. But I'm looking forward to hearing some.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Does the President of the United States really need a passport? Who would check it? Does he go through customs? Do they search him or his luggage?

Hmmm, Just wondering....

Maybe Bush does not need a passport now, as with his entourage and his position he can get on any plane without being searched etc...and if some authorities demand a body search, Bush's bodyguards will protect him...

HOWEVER, what is interesting is that (according to this rumour) Bush never owned a passport before he became President of the United States....
Hence, the most powerful figure has never been abroad to experience other cultures. Normally, being abroad and talking to people from other cultures broadens your mind, and I would have expected that a President had been abroad at least a couple of times in his life, especially Bush, as he could easily afford a trip outside the United States even before he moved to the White House...

 

[mad pierrot]

I'm all for listening to the other side. But I've yet to hear any Bush supporters give reasons for doing so that didn't seem incredibly closed-minded. But I'm looking forward to hearing some.

We should make this the title of a thread!