European views on America

mad pierrot

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Bush's Muscular Foreign Policy Strengthening European Fears of U.S.
by Floyd J. McKay
Published on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 by the Seattle Times

Extracts:
Europeans gave Bush foreign policy a 76 percent vote of disapproval, and even Poland and Italy, where U.S. policy had previously been favored, turned against us in the 2004 survey. The "disapproval rate" increased 20 percentage points in just two years. The survey validates anecdotal findings that the Bush administration has cut a very nasty trench between America and our traditional allies. Americans traveling in Europe find themselves welcome as individuals and on the defensive when it comes to politics.
There is a natural affinity between Americans and Europeans. In fact, 67 percent of Americans want to be as close or closer to Europeans. But only 46 percent of Europeans feel that way about America, and 50 percent want to be more independent from the U.S.
More Europeans are thinking like Europeans rather than British or French or Poles, and as they do so, they want a close but more equal relationship with the United States. Europeans were amused and bemused by Ronald Reagan, but they are frightened by George W. Bush and believe his foreign policy has created Islamic terrorists and muted the voices of reason within the Islamic community.

These are just a few quotes taken from the article. I'm assuming that the author was American, and I find it arrogant that he would assume to know how all "Europeans" think, but nevertheless, I'm curious as know if this is true. How do all the other European members on the board feel about this? (Please read the whole article before commenting, see below.)

George W. Bush's aides apparently see him as a "transformational" president, but it remains to be seen what sort of transformation would result if Bush is given a second term.
A hint, which should be disturbing to Americans, is seen in last week's release of a transatlantic survey of Americans and Europeans, which shows a serious, widening gap between Europeans and the Bush administration on foreign policy.
The poll, for the German Marshall Fund of the United States, was conducted in the U.S. and 10 European nations by a Gallup affiliate and has a margin of error of 3 percent.
Europeans gave Bush foreign policy a 76 percent vote of disapproval, and even Poland and Italy, where U.S. policy had previously been favored, turned against us in the 2004 survey. The "disapproval rate" increased 20 percentage points in just two years. The survey validates anecdotal findings that the Bush administration has cut a very nasty trench between America and our traditional allies. Americans traveling in Europe find themselves welcome as individuals and on the defensive when it comes to politics.
We have come a huge distance from 9/11, when all of Europe rallied to our side, and even from the ensuing invasion of Afghanistan, which was well-supported in Europe.
Iraq was the turning point. If the president had kept his eye on Osama bin Laden instead of avenging old hates by going after Saddam Hussein, European views would have been dramatically different.
It is not merely disagreement over the necessity of invading Iraq, it is the figurative thumbing of the American nose at European opinion. If the Bush "transformation" escalates his muscular foreign policy of pre-emptive military action, look for European opinion to harden even more.
There is a natural affinity between Americans and Europeans. In fact, 67 percent of Americans want to be as close or closer to Europeans. But only 46 percent of Europeans feel that way about America, and 50 percent want to be more independent from the U.S.
More Europeans are thinking like Europeans rather than British or French or Poles, and as they do so, they want a close but more equal relationship with the United States. Europeans were amused and bemused by Ronald Reagan, but they are frightened by George W. Bush and believe his foreign policy has created Islamic terrorists and muted the voices of reason within the Islamic community.
Europeans overwhelmingly (73 percent) believe the Iraq war has increased the risk of terrorism; 47 percent of Americans agree. Additionally, some 54 percent of Americans believe the best way to ensure peace is through military strength, but only 28 percent of Europeans agree.
The difference in reliance on military might is stark, but understandable. Europeans have felt war in ways we have not since the Civil War. Cities were leveled, farmlands plowed with artillery shells, millions of young men killed or severely wounded in two world wars and a host of smaller conflicts fought on European soil.
It is sobering to spend time in a European church or cathedral and scan the names on the war memorials. In some cases, nearly all of a village's young men were lost in battle.
This should not be read as any lack of sympathy for American dead in those wars, or in Iraq. It is simply to say that war on your own soil, with its staggering civilian costs, does cause one to look at war in another way. The horrors of 9/11 were the worst on American soil since 1865 and they pale beside European casualties in the 20th century.
If we still believe that military strength is the answer to 9/11, many Europeans believe that they have had enough of war and want to find another way to combat evil.
There is truth in both positions. The minions of bin Laden are not open to negotiation, and force of arms must be an option. Most Europeans likely would agree. But the reckless use of arms, with Iraq as an example, makes it harder to use power intelligently. Our forces are tied down, perhaps for years to come, and our national wealth is being poured into a black hole.
America saved European democracy in World War II and helped build a postwar society that enjoys a standard of living equal to ours, and in some cases higher. Americans and Europeans want close ties, but folks in Europe want to be treated as grownups, not as extras in a cowboy shootout.

Sorry for taking up so much space with this, but the link is down.
:sorry:
 
I wish all Americans hated Bush as much as the rest of the world does. I'll never understand how half of the country can be in favor of him.
 
lol with the choice of presidents right now america is in a bad stiuation we have 2 idiots wanting to run this country and we can do nothing about it but watch the chaos happen lol i have my popcorn and my seat ready :p
 
Knives wrote...
we have 2 idiots wanting to run this country

I've heard a lot of people say this, but people say so for every election. I think Kerry seems like a pretty good choice, not just a good alternative to Bush. But we can only see after/if he becomes president.
 
Brooker said:
I've heard a lot of people say this, but people say so for every election. I think Kerry seems like a pretty good choice, not just a good alternative to Bush. But we can only see after/if he becomes president.
It's still a battle of the very rich against the very rich - no matter which way you look at it. But that's 'par for the course' with US politics.

On the foreign policy front I'd like it a lot more if - not just the US - but all countries reacted more consistently to situations and didn't just follow their personal grudges / the press / convenience of the moment.

You can see one of the things I'm talking about at the Genocide Watch site.
 
Thanks for that article, Mad Pierrot. One of the many reasons I love Europeans!! :cool:
 
As a true Western European, I completely agree with the article except with the last sentence :

America saved European democracy in World War II and helped build a postwar society that enjoys a standard of living equal to ours, and in some cases higher. Americans and Europeans want close ties, but folks in Europe want to be treated as grownups, not as extras in a cowboy shootout.

Saved European democracy ? About a third of Europe was neutral or didn't engage in war on their homeland during WWII, including Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Ireland and half of France.

"helped build a postwar society that enjoys a standard of living equal to ours" => does that imply that the European living standards were lower before WWII (or WWI) ? Certainly not before WWI.
 
Saved European democracy ? Does that imply that the European living standards were lower before WWII (or WWI) ?

I see what you mean. This is what I meant by arrogant assumption. I wonder how many Americans feel that Europe "owes" America? Certainly that idea is fostered in many schools.

But why did he have to throw in the cowboy reference? :D
 
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I do agree with the observations in the article. And I do think that Europeans do indeed owe their freedom after WWII to US intervention. Neither Hitler nor Stalin would have been a pleasant alternative?.

But that does not mean that Europe should base its foreign policy on US needs. On the contrary, the freedom we enjoy should be used to criticise and point out. And that also includes criticizing those who helped us after WWII.

I really don?t understand why so many Americans (sorry for generalizing) I meet think that critique equals hostility. Being critical, distrusting authorities, freedom of speech are actually parts of US American history and tradition. But it seems that exactly these have been forgotten?.
 
I agree with maci.

the sentence he quoted makes it sound like europe is the child that america had to nurture o_O

It's true the war was turned by the americans entering it (Sweden was neutral, our biggest threat was hardly nazi germany, but Russia, your allies as they would turn out to be) But America hardly joined the war out of the goodness of their hearts..

over here nations were on their knees and america said "hold on.. we'll see what we can do.. later... maybe..."

But what does WW2 really have to do with anything?.. if the whole of europe has to be greatful for that, then how about America being grateful to the french for helping them fend off the english and making them independant!.. skillfully forgotten facts?

All I see towards the french from america is spit and curses.
 
BeNippon wrote....
I really don?t understand why so many Americans (sorry for generalizing) I meet think that critique equals hostility. Being critical, distrusting authorities, freedom of speech are actually parts of US American history and tradition. But it seems that exactly these have been forgotten?.

I think Americans still realize this, but most of them just don't like to hear criticism about America from non-Americans. It's the old "I can say something negative about my mother, buy you can't" sort of thing.
 
Actually, I've encountered rightwing conservatives who feel that if an American (usually me) criticizes our government, then they are somehow anti-American. Absolutely ludicrous, of course. That somehow hating one's government means hating one's country, when they are clearly not the same thing. :rolleyes:
 
Show of hands here please...
How many people here love their country, but have mixed emotions (or hatred) for their government?
 
Brooker said:
Show of hands here please...
How many people here love their country, but have mixed emotions (or hatred) for their government?

*raises hand high in the air*

:p
 
This is a very long post so you might not be interested in reading all of it but give it a try, thank you.

In my opinion the problem resides in the American myth. Europeans used to believe in that myth called the american dream and land of freedom, they believed that the US trully was a better place thatn Europe and from my experience it was still true to some extent just a few years ago. However, I guess Europeans have come to realize how disconnected from reality that image of the US is. There reaction is discribed in the article, they want to be more independant, they don't want to feel like they owe something. They also see how the US is going downhill, it's still dominating but so much less than a few decades ago, first thing: exports are dominated by Europe, but in such domain as sports, entertainment, influence, military and diplomatic power the US is still dominating but now the other voices can be heard and they are in Europe.
Europe has no debt to the US, it has paid back several times over, IMO. Of course during WWII the outcome would have been alot different without the US intervention but the same can be said about the Soviets. They were the ones to inflict Germany's first defeat and repelled the enemy as far as Berlin. Had the Soviets been defeated, the allies would have had to deal with the entire Nazi army with a high moral from victory over the USSR. So does Europe owe to the US? Yes but equally to the Soviets even if they were villains.
Now we have our own war in Iraq and again we fight for myth, just like in Vietnam. We cannot accept defeat because the US is supposed to be righteous, moral and invincible, if the loose it would mean being wrong. But does it really matter? The Europeans would be more than happy to see an end to this war and so would be most Americans so why not ask for peace? DeGaule, although he was despisable as a man had the guts to retreat from Algeria in the middle of the war and he had the all army against him but he still did because it was the right choice and now he is seen as one of the greatest leaders of his time. But Bush would never do that because, first he has no courage, and because his role is to protect the myth.
The election are about the same thing on both Bush's and Kerry's side, listen to their speech and all they care about is the image of the US, it has to be strong, it has to be respected. THey have to learn something, strenght and respect doesn't come from force and threat, that only brings fear, it can be gained by being honest and accept a mistake. Right now the two candidate seem to show the opposite, blinded by money and fame, guided by tradition. A tradition of myth, which says that the president as too be a successful businessman, with strong faith in christianity, capitalism and 'democracy' American style.
Europeans see through this scam, they no longer believe in the myth, they are aware that they were deceived and they show it, good for them. Most Americans are still stranded in the middle of a dream or a nightmare, they still are willingly brainwashed and accept the image of the righteous America mistake after mistake, tell them about My Lai, abu ghabir and any other crime perpetuated by Americans, they will answer that hey did it for the country, they were victims, they had no choice... There is always a choice, the choice to believe that not supporting your gov't doesn't necesserly means betraying your country.
I can only hope that something will awaken the US in a peaceful way before it falls out of its bed because it will be a painful landing, they gentle hand might come from Europe , but despite the good will it might nbe a little too peaceful for such a stubborn sleeper.
There I think I said everything, I'm sorry it was long and not very ordered, but it's almost 5am and I thought that at work. I will conclude by saying that I am not proud to be American, neither I am to be European, if we forgot a little bit about pride of the country it would help...
Thank you for reading and again sorry for the bad english.
 
I just saw a proggy the other night with this bible-hugger going "we vote Bush in Georgia because every morning he falls on his knees and asks the good Lord what he's to do, so he won't make mistakes"... well good load of good THAT's done.

These super-religious nuts seem to think the president is not a person, but an entity.. like he's the one closest to God, like the old rulers of Egypt or something.

It's not like "God" is gonna answer him and tell him what to do just because he's the prez.

on the government thing, sure.. love country, not so thrilled about the government..
not that it's the wrong one, in my opinion the social democrats (that have the power over here) should be the ones in charge. That doesn't mean I really like 'em though, it just means I hate 'em less than the other parties.
 
I don't really love my country; there're things that I like and things that I dislike about it. I feel that I should hate the government, but I don't really. OK, Tony Blair is an absolute idiot but I think the country isn't running too badly at the moment. I think many people will always hate the governement regardless, due to the general hatred of politicians, but these people feel the need to complain about something so they'll never be satisfied. And hey, it's better than Michael-"I'm going to suck your blood"-Howard would manage I think.
 
Yes, that's me too, Brooker. I wouldn't live anywhere else.
 

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