Facial Reconstruction of Mycaenean era (c.1500 BC) nobleman from ancient Greece

[MOESAN]

No offense, but I'm lost when it comes to that pca. Shouldn't Greeks plot with other southern europeans? Why are they closer to Finns than they are to every other European group? Normally they would plot with Italians.

I defend physical anthopology usefulness - but me too I don't rely too much upon this PCA of BRACE and of others; PCA's (mixing a lot of features to help to put into only 2 dimensions) show something in differences, very less in convergences.

 

[MOESAN]

It looks like me, -except the nose. Especially the colour of the flesh and the blue/black curly hair. But also the bronze reconstruction remind me my mother with her big cheekbones!
Allthough the one is looking very digital; and so in a way non physical as profoundly ordered in almost perfect symmetry, as well the light is coming in front.
The -photo of Bronze, worked in clay-reconstruction is different lightened from two sources with not the same density, so that alone cannot create an expression but a tension for sure, it is a different glazing material in a white font, also it is a mature person-which looks like my mother!- while the mycenean man from Pylos is about ~35. They both share big mouthcave;
@Angela yes is the Griffin warrior.
@Moesan I generally agree with your comments but I think they doing great job to Pylos and will see more to the future, the excavation is from university of Cincinatti and the reconstruction from university of Johanesburg.


anyway
They both are familiar for a reason and both remind me many -today-persons and probably...
Achilles doesnt looked like Brad Pit.

I want not to say the work is without any value - but compared to the "Russian" man the pictures is a bit less realistic, I think, even if the last is also subject of some caution; always the same uncertitudes: nose flesh part, mouth form, eyelids, pillous system, pigmentation (are pigmt genes tested ?) and so on; if you look acutely to the Greek, you 'll see the cheeks seem as if the man have superior teeth infection (or "tobacco to chew" on both sides); lack of depressions between cheekbones and inferior jaw, lack of wrinkles; have they tested the genes for hair form?
&: for the lower jaw, the muscles broaden it more or less (food and mastication) and as a whole tend to be broader a bit higher than the maxillar angle; but here the maximum of breadth is too high for me.

 

[Nik]

The Mycenaeans were a complete people, not just a royal family. And who were those "commoners" exactly? The Pelasgians? How do you know that they had not also originated from the North?
Blond people existed in ancient Greece just like they exist in modern Greece. I am red/blondish... My point is that there is nothing to associate them with some sort of nobility, contrary to various theories going around in certain fora.
Funnily, it is more likely that they originate from the Pre-Indoeuropean hunter-gatherer substrata that lived there before the Greeks.
Oh, and a 19th century painting of Helen of Troy that probably looks like the artist's girlfriend tells us nothing about Helen's appearance (assuming she existed), just like the paintings of a blond and blue eyed Jesus produced by Europeans during the Renaissance.

Ur giving obvious answers mate. Of course what came to be known as Mycenaeans included the entire population where the majority were obviously the indigeneous people. But it would be realistic to assume that the conquering original Mycenaeans represented the majority of the nobility and would have preferred mating more with each other than with the conquered indigenous commoners.

Therefore, I expect them to be more Northern looking, a term which I personally don't relate to blonde hair. If they originated from Ukraine I can rightly assume the original Mycenaeans had a lot of Dinaric, CM, and Pontid in them, not just the local NE European blonde Baltids.

Im not a Nordicist at all and not not implying the 19th century propaganda of Nordic supremacy over the enslaved Mediterraneans, as we clearly know nowadays that those so-called Nordic heroes were nothing more than taller Dinarics, CM, or Atlanto-Meds, while the majority were the local Mediterranean type. Basically a typical Balkan component and nothing alien.

My point was directed specifically to the reconstructed nobleman as he cant even be Balkanic imo, while other Ancient Greek statues for instance could fit easily in modern Balkan populations. I don't even see him being Greek to be honest, so it's either a very bad reconstruction or he belonged to an extinct (through mixing) phenotype no longer present/rare in Peloponnesus. Hope I explained myself.

 

[kostop]

Of course what came to be known as Mycenaeans included the entire population where the majority were obviously the indigeneous people. But it would be realistic to assume that the conquering original Mycenaeans represented the majority of the nobility and would have preferred mating more with each other than with the conquered indigenous commoners.

The Mycenaeans were basically the people of Homeric stories. Throughout the surviving literature they describe themselves as autochthonous, contrary to the following Dorians who speak clearly about a northern homeland ("northern" meaning in northern Greece near the area of Doris, not some place in north Europe). Even their script, Linear B, was not related to the Greek writing system. In fact it was close to Minoan script, indicating a very long presence in the land. The year 1500BC (when this nobleman lived) was only a few centuries before the Mycenaean civilisation collapsed, probably overcome by the invading Dorians, who eventually subjugated them and turned them in to Helotes in Sparta for example.
Therefore even if the initial small number of people who later formed the Mycenaeans came from the north, that must have happened so long ago that it's impossible to tell if the northerners of that time had dark or light features. This is why I am saying that the idea that the "nobility"of the early Mycenaeans had light northern features is basically a guestimate.
Btw I never meant to imply that you are personally a nordicist, sorry if it came across that way.

 

[Milan]

Off topic.....

 

[Yetos]

I want not to say the work is without any value - but compared to the "Russian" man the pictures is a bit less realistic, I think, even if the last is also subject of some caution; always the same uncertitudes: nose flesh part, mouth form, eyelids, pillous system, pigmentation (are pigmt genes tested ?) and so on; if you look acutely to the Greek, you 'll see the cheeks seem as if the man have superior teeth infection (or "tobacco to chew" on both sides); lack of depressions between cheekbones and inferior jaw, lack of wrinkles; have they tested the genes for hair form?
&: for the lower jaw, the muscles broaden it more or less (food and mastication) and as a whole tend to be broader a bit higher than the maxillar angle; but here the maximum of breadth is too high for me.

inferior jaw has also the 'girl' of Athens,
what sets strange to me is that the hair are too grappy,
we know Greeks had wavy and 'curly' hair, and βοστρυχους but at the reconstruction we see a % that is very small even today at Greeks,

that type of 'girl' can easily be found today, with narrow jaw, and is in quite good % especially in S Greece,

 

[Yetos]

Ur giving obvious answers mate. Of course what came to be known as Mycenaeans included the entire population where the majority were obviously the indigeneous people. But it would be realistic to assume that the conquering original Mycenaeans represented the majority of the nobility and would have preferred mating more with each other than with the conquered indigenous commoners.

Therefore, I expect them to be more Northern looking, a term which I personally don't relate to blonde hair. If they originated from Ukraine I can rightly assume the original Mycenaeans had a lot of Dinaric, CM, and Pontid in them, not just the local NE European blonde Baltids.

Im not a Nordicist at all and not not implying the 19th century propaganda of Nordic supremacy over the enslaved Mediterraneans, as we clearly know nowadays that those so-called Nordic heroes were nothing more than taller Dinarics, CM, or Atlanto-Meds, while the majority were the local Mediterranean type. Basically a typical Balkan component and nothing alien.

My point was directed specifically to the reconstructed nobleman as he cant even be Balkanic imo, while other Ancient Greek statues for instance could fit easily in modern Balkan populations. I don't even see him being Greek to be honest, so it's either a very bad reconstruction or he belonged to an extinct (through mixing) phenotype no longer present/rare in Peloponnesus. Hope I explained myself.

Pontid race is not Blond,
Myceneans as culture seems to 'split' from rest IE at today Vatin-Vucocar SerboCroatia, and enter south Greece at 1500-2500 BC,
but as a Yamnaa population, they do not have to be Blond,
Blond enter with early IE in Greece, with Gauls, with Slavs, with Varrangians, and affect even the skin tone,
All the searches upon population in Greece, especially Neolithic show a brown population with 1-2 tones darker skin,
even black hair should be minority in neolithic Greece,
but with IE migrations we have a change to a darker skin and entrance of a tone of 'pale' skin, to majority of population,

 

[Yetos]

about blonds in Greek and Greece

she is the same person,

all 3 types can pass as blond in Greece,
but true blond is the 3rd photo,
the first is brown
and the second ξανθοκαστανα (xanthokastana blond-chestnut)
the 3rd is Xantho

at summer easily light brown turn to blond-chestnut,
sometimes brown hair can get even an light orange tone


Dark brown mot Black

Brown hair typical at least in my area.

light brown to red

light brown to blond

or

or

as you see light brown can easily pass as blond

but is far away from North true blond

or

 

[Angela]

The OP states that the pigmentation chosen was based on a painting found with the remains. So, we won't be able to absolutely verify the pigmentation until the dna is tested.

That said, I don't find it earth shattering that a Mycenaean noble from around 1500 BC might have had this kind of coloring.

The Yamnaya were not very fair at all, the Catacomb people even less so. Both were darker than modern Europeans. It seems people have forgotten the results from all those papers. You don't get the modern spectrum of pigmentation until around the time of Sintashta about a 1000 years later. Even the first "Greek speakers" to enter Greece might not have looked like northern European scholars of the 19th century imagined them, depending on their exact make up. We just don't know yet.

Ian Mathiesen et al: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf
Sandra Wilde et al: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full

They were driven by their own agenda in a lot of cases. In fact, these people were even able to look at statuary of the Juli-Claudi clan, members of one of the most illustrious patrician clans of Rome, and because a few of them had lighter hair and light eyes, imagined they looked like Swedes. It's ridiculous.

I can't imagine a more Italian face than that of Julius Caesar. Even Augustus fits into that category, light hair notwithstanding. Or Vespasian, an equestrian, and one of the best emperors. It was just delusion and cultural appropriation on a mass scale.

Vespasian:

 

[Nik]

The Mycenaeans were basically the people of Homeric stories. Throughout the surviving literature they describe themselves as autochthonous, contrary to the following Dorians who speak clearly about a northern homeland ("northern" meaning in northern Greece near the area of Doris, not some place in north Europe). Even their script, Linear B, was not related to the Greek writing system. In fact it was close to Minoan script, indicating a very long presence in the land. The year 1500BC (when this nobleman lived) was only a few centuries before the Mycenaean civilisation collapsed, probably overcome by the invading Dorians, who eventually subjugated them and turned them in to Helotes in Sparta for example.
Therefore even if the initial small number of people who later formed the Mycenaeans came from the north, that must have happened so long ago that it's impossible to tell if the northerners of that time had dark or light features. This is why I am saying that the idea that the "nobility"of the early Mycenaeans had light northern features is basically a guestimate.
Btw I never meant to imply that you are personally a nordicist, sorry if it came across that way.

Again, I'm not talking about pigmentation as Northerners can be dark as well, I'm talking his facial features.

If the reconstruction would portray a gracile dark Mediterranean or if he was a commoner I wouldn't be surprised at all.

It's just that this guy reminds me of modern Egyptians and not of modern Greeks at all, on top of being an IE nobleman.

And I'm aware about the Mycenaean-Dorian division and early settlement, but I was simply referring to him as an early established I.E. nobility.

 

[Nik]

@Angela, I don't know with whom we are all debating with as nobody here is saying that the Ancient Greek nobility was predominantly blonde. I for one have been saying in every post that I'm not talking about pigmentation and light hair at all.

Good point on the Romans though as its true that the 19th century Nordicists tried to capitalize on them big time. And funnily every time I see their faces I think of old Albanian shepherds nowadays

 

[Coriolan]

helene of troy was beautifull. not blond,
Blond does not mean beautyfull.

as also Alexander,
the written ssay about Ξανθιζειν towards blond, which in Greek is light brown,
light brown at summer turn to blond

Alexander was half Scythian on his mother's side, so blond hair is possible.

 

[Angela]

@Angela, I don't know with whom we are all debating with as nobody here is saying that the Ancient Greek nobility was predominantly blonde. I for one have been saying in every post that I'm not talking about pigmentation and light hair at all.

Good point on the Romans though as its true that the 19th century Nordicists tried to capitalize on them big time. And funnily every time I see their faces I think of old Albanian shepherds nowadays

I have no experience with Albanian shepherds, but if you want to see people who look like the statues and paintings of the Romans, all you have to do is walk around Italy.

Augustus:

Our local baker:

http://imgur.com/a/Z0s6A


Julius:

Francesco Guidolin...

Bersani looks a bit like Vespasian too.

 

[kostop]

Again, I'm not talking about pigmentation as Northerners can be dark as well, I'm talking his facial features.

Apart from the narrow distance between the eyes, the rest of his features would not look out of place in certain areas of Greece, especially in Arcadia in central Peloponisos where my father originates from. In terms of pigmentation he would definitely be too dark for a modern Greek, but we have to take into account the limitations of the s/w that generated the image. To be honest he looks like he has just escaped from a video game...

 

[Maciamo]

The Mycenaeans were basically the people of Homeric stories. Throughout the surviving literature they describe themselves as autochthonous, contrary to the following Dorians who speak clearly about a northern homeland ("northern" meaning in northern Greece near the area of Doris, not some place in north Europe). Even their script, Linear B, was not related to the Greek writing system. In fact it was close to Minoan script, indicating a very long presence in the land. The year 1500BC (when this nobleman lived) was only a few centuries before the Mycenaean civilisation collapsed, probably overcome by the invading Dorians, who eventually subjugated them and turned them in to Helotes in Sparta for example.
Therefore even if the initial small number of people who later formed the Mycenaeans came from the north, that must have happened so long ago that it's impossible to tell if the northerners of that time had dark or light features. This is why I am saying that the idea that the "nobility"of the early Mycenaeans had light northern features is basically a guestimate.
Btw I never meant to imply that you are personally a nordicist, sorry if it came across that way.

Why are you denying the Indo-European origin of Mycenaean Greeks? The language did not spread by cultural diffusion from neighbours without invasion.

We don't have much ancient DNA from Mycenaean Greece yet. But Bouwman et al. (2008) tested 3 mtDNA samples, and the only one for which they gave the deep clade was U5a1a, one of the most quintessentially PIE Steppe lineages, found in all Bronze Age Indo-European cultures so far (both R1a and R1b ones) and found in Northeast Europe, Central Asia and India today. That doesn't make it easy to determine if Mycenaeans were predominantly R1a, R1b, or a balanced blend of both. So far the Mycenaeans are the only IE people that I haven't been able to assign to either group. I think that's because they descend from the Catacomb culture, which marks the expansion of R1a forest-steppe people into Yamna, thus blending both R1a and R1b. In fact, there is a good chance that your R1b-Z2110 came to Greece with the Mycenaeans.

It makes no doubt that the Mycenaeans intermarried quickly with autochthonous Greeks, and lots their Steppe appearance. Nevertheless, early Mycenaeans were surely very typical Steppe people.

 

[Yetos]

Alexander was half Scythian on his mother's side, so blond hair is possible.

Alexander was not Scythian,

he was an Argeiad (hercules) and Mollosean (Achilleus)

The Scythian wife of Phillip that is found at Phillip's tomb was not his mother,
(but she could be a hiden love dream of him)

 

[Milan]

Mycenaeans from Catacomb culture? Did they practiced cranial deformation at all like the people in Catacomb culture, haven't seen such practice among Greeks or are you tracing the masks of the deceased? Can't be said that those masks have origin in the Catacomb culture.What is proof that Mycenaeans were from Catacomb culture apart from guessing?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Nice thread, I enjoy it


@ Dagne
I agree with that for Helen. That was enough reason to be special, so in short terms... Beautifull !

@Moesan
I generally agree with some of your points... maybe I will need your opinion for that mask later.

But firstly
I wanted to mention something about the colour, the depictions and the subjects of the depictions,so to say persons; in art and poetry in general.


The today -average in all means- person is living in a fully artificial enviroment "bombarded" with many colours from a great pallete of variations. We have many names for ex. Carmine(colour) to describe a specific red or Cadmium for a specific yellow, etc. We have the names because we have the qualities -to say them colours.
The colour-at ancient times- is very "rare" and so valuable as well recognizable and well described, so at is concerns:
The appearance of the "population" and how described in Orphic Hymns, here is a briefly example.


(!) while there are hundrends of epithets for the description of the shape of the body, the character, the special gualities of the triple/dozen dieties beetween beyond hundrend and a dozen hymns, there is not common to describe the colour of the hair or the eyes but with some exceptance which well carry its symbolism. (παναξ)


So we have,
for Poseidon ,"κυανοχαίτης" = Blue/black haired, for obvious reasons (god of sea) I suppose also for the grey reflection of white hairs in contrast to black hairs.
for Apollo, "χρυσοκόμη" = Gold haired (as god of sun)


for the eyes
for Athena "γλαυκωφ' = Blue eyed (as divinity of wisdom, / clarity of sky)
for Aphrodite Nymphs, " ...η νύμφαις τέρπη κυανώπισιν έν χθονί Δία,... = ...the black eyed nymphs Zeus of underworld enjoy... (with aphrodite also) // kyano- "Κυανό" as black here
for Adonis, "αβροκόμη" = curly haired; as also "βαθυχαίτα"= rich haired etc.


For all the others divinities/hymns ( because every hymn is dedicated to an other divinity) there is no mention or description for colours eyes/hairs etc, the above examples lead me to a point, that the average could be in short terms almosy as dark brunnete (6C Cristal colours- Loreal Paris :grin: )- Maybe;
While the exceptions are the black and the blond as it is today, the total black is also rare as blonde in today greece.
But, all the depictions point us... most on black hair from prehistory to history. Not to mention Aeschylus and the Danaides which I suppose that allready discussed in other threads;


We also know that "Myceneans" adore Brown/ Earth colours, - while the minoans the basics Blue /Red/Yellow so I cannot see why is difficult to depict brunnete or even blonde hair colour; (?!) Instead the vast majority of the depicted remnants, support the Black hair(blue/black) from Thera to Minoans to Mycenean and further...
At least we would expect for the elite a lighter version, but this was nt the case not even for the name of exclusive!


anyway
Theran Frescos
Minoan Images
Myceanean Frescos also a nice set of slide photos here.


@Maciamo -A mycenean dagger could support the steppe hypothesis as dual chop primarly, but the depiction of the men... looks problematic, is it a sort of a kind of an other stock; Mediterranean -maybe- with Dinaric imput;

@Moesan
I dont know -much- about the Russians artists not for the Americans but the "Greeks" are doing perfect!








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@Yetos
*(Funny coincidence)
My best man epithet is "πυρομάλλης" = Firehaired, he is bold and I am grey to white- as the years passed by- and both now sing:


(...τιπι τιπι τιπι νται..., ντιπι νται ωτιπι νται...)
... βρε μελαχρινάκι με πότισες φαρμάκι...


transl. ... oh dark colured(woman)you drunked me poison... :embarassed:

Is she amazing or what? (there is a lot of that stock today)

 

[Milan]

In reality I was interested for provoked cranial deformation among Indo-Europeans and possible connection with Catacomb, this is however very old practice among people so you can't be conclusive,mask of deceased another Catacomb practice and thought to open a thread about it,so far king Midas Phrygian has visible provoked cranial deformation,cranial deformation found in Vergina Macedon it is said caused by trauma possibly Philip? the masks like the one of Agamemnon are found among Thracians later,Macedonians and couple from earlier dates in Lychnidos(Ohrid) 8B.C,as well Etruria,but for whatever reason they have good paralels in Egypt too.Haven't seen masks from Catacomb yet but from later Tashtyk culture first to fourth CE but this aren't golden.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Why are you denying the Indo-European origin of Mycenaean Greeks? The language did not spread by cultural diffusion from neighbours without invasion.

We don't have much ancient DNA from Mycenaean Greece yet. But Bouwman et al. (2008) tested 3 mtDNA samples, and the only one for which they gave the deep clade was U5a1a, one of the most quintessentially PIE Steppe lineages, found in all Bronze Age Indo-European cultures so far (both R1a and R1b ones) and found in Northeast Europe, Central Asia and India today. That doesn't make it easy to determine if Mycenaeans were predominantly R1a, R1b, or a balanced blend of both. So far the Mycenaeans are the only IE people that I haven't been able to assign to either group. I think that's because they descend from the Catacomb culture, which marks the expansion of R1a forest-steppe people into Yamna, thus blending both R1a and R1b. In fact, there is a good chance that your R1b-Z2110 came to Greece with the Mycenaeans.

It makes no doubt that the Mycenaeans intermarried quickly with autochthonous Greeks, and lots their Steppe appearance. Nevertheless, early Mycenaeans were surely very typical Steppe people.

The assignments you have made have no real world value. For example, saying that the Dorians were R1b because of the "high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete)" doesn't take into account 1) their homeland before the migration to Peloponnese and 2) the people to whom they were more closely related like North-Western Greeks and possibly Macedonians (if we accept that Macedonians spoke NW Greek which I accept but some doubt it). It doesn't take into account also various post-classical events that may have affected the frequencies of the haplogroups. If we judged by the frequencies of haplogroups in modern populations (which is wrong) it would seem more Ionian.

Furthermore, whether you like it or not Mycenaean culture doesn't have much in common with any Steppic culture. And I am sure you didn't like the fact the the typical Steppe people were... wogs and their cousin in Kura Araxes Armenia was.. black.