bossel said:
I doubt that it is a racial or religious issue. The problem is ghettoisation in France. Most of those who are rioting now simply don't see much of a future for themselves. The French government probably hasn't put enough effort into integration.
Comparing the integration of various immigrant groups in France, belgium, the UK or Japan, I have noticed that Maghrebans, Pakistani and Black Africans are those who have the hardest to adapt to their host country.
In the UK, it's interesting to notice that immigrants from India, Sri Lanka or even Bangladesh tend to be better integrated and more prosperous than the Pakistani. The main reason is that each country's immigrants came at different times with a different education. The Indians came first in the 1950's and included mostly doctors, who didn't form ghettos, but spread out through the country (many in the countryside, which is unusual for immigrants) were there was a need for medical doctors. The Pakistani were at the other end of the scale, as they arrived the latest (in the 1970's) and were mostly poor and uneducated. They went to industrial cities such as Bradford to work in factories, and as many couldn't speak English, they formed ghettos. Some British Pakistani still don't speak English (or not well) nowadays ! The Bradford riots in summer 2001 have shown that they are the ones who cut themselves from British society, as they attacked white people entering their "domain". More than the Bangladeshi, they wear Muslim clothes and prefer their original language over English.
Interestingly, the situation of Moroccans and Algerians in France and Belgium is very similar to that of the Pakistani in Britain. Those immigrants were also not very well educated and poor. They also formed ghettoes, wore Muslim clothes and spoke Arabic (eventhough French was an official language in their home country). I seriously doubt that the French government is responsible for the ghettoes and poor integration. France has more laws and organisations about immigrant integration than Japan could dream of. What is more, the Maghrebans are not the only major group of immigrant in France and Belgium. In fact, they are not even the biggest one. According the
French statistics agency Maghrebans make up 30% of the immigrants in France, as opposed to 45% for other Europeans (mostly Latin). Yet, we never hear of problems caused by Italians, Spaniards or Portuguese in France. Likewise, there are more people of Italian descent in Belgium than from Arabic descent. Yet, we never hear any problem about Italians, and many (almost constantly) about Moroccans.
The Italians came from the impoverished South to work in coal mines from the 1920's to the 1960's. They were also mostly uneducated and also concentrated in cities like Charleroi or Liege (now the 2 biggest cities in Wallonia thanks to the Italians). But they adapted very well. Even those that arrived in the 1960's along with the Maghrebans are now so well integrated that they are not considered as foreigners anymore (even the 200,000 or so that haven't taken on Belgian citizenship yet). There are Italian restaurants owned by Italians everywhere. All Italians speak French very well (many second or thired generations even have problem speaking Italian). They have adapted so well that th current popular Premier of Wallonia, Elio di Rupo, is himself of pure Italian descent.
These Southern Italians are as clearly distinguishable from "native Belgians" as Moroccans or Tunisians are. Looking at the Map, Sicily and Tunisia are just separated by a bit of sea, and Belgium is 2000km north. So what is it that differentiate so much Belgian Maghrebans from Belgian Italians ? First of all, religion. But more than that, their attitude to their host society. The once very Catholic Southern Italians have now become as little religious as ordinary Belgians. They don't speak Italian between them (even if they can), and don't practice strange customs or traditions from back home. They mix easly with the native Belgians and don't mind intermarriages. On the contrary, most Maghrebans don't do all this. They wear the same clothes as if they were in their home country or at least different clothes, emphasising their Muslimness (veil, etc.). They typically speak Arabic together. Even 2nd or 3rd generations speak French or Dutch with a strong Arabic accent and different expressions directly translated from Arabic (e.g. saying "my brother" when they mean "my friend" or injecting an "Inshala"). They avoid intermarriages and make trouble to non Arabs entering their self-imposed ghettoes (even the police doesn't want to go to some Arabic neighbourhoods in Brussels). It's the same in France, and I am not surprise the whole country's Maghrebans should riot in unison when riot start in one place, as they still feel pretty much like one people, that has little in common to the host population and does not want to become like them.
Interestingly, the Black Africans also failed to adapt well, contrarily to the Carribean Blacks, either in France or Britain. It is a common in Paris to see Black Africans wearing colourful robes and hats as if they had just got off the plane from Africa. Most of these people have been in France (or Belgium) for decades. They have not tried a bit to change their appearance or lifestyle to adapt to their host society and culture. They frequently break the law regarding accommodation, living at 5 in a room for 1 to save money. They typically don't work and expect to receive social security; in other words, the good life (esp. compared to their home country). They can't claim that the can't find a job because of discrimination, as Carribean Blacks can find jobs almost as easily as whites, at equal qualification.
Be it in France, Belgium or the UK, racial discrimination or "ghettoisation" is not the factor that explains the lack of integration of these communities, because there are other similar ethnic groups that cope much better than them. In the UK, Indians are no comparisons to Pakistani. Carribean Blacks are no comparison to African Blacks. In Belgium, the Turks are also better adapted than the Moroccans, although they arrived at the same time and are both Muslim. Belgian Turks may speak Turkish between themselves, but they don't make ghettoes, don't wear Muslim clothes and make much less troubles. When we hear of assaults, carjacking, etc. it's almsot always Moroccans, and rarely Turks or other immigrants. The Chinese, for instance, may not always speak well the local language, but they are much better adapted, don't make trouble, and even when they have their neighbourhood, don't wear Chinese clothes in the street. Yet they were the last to come in the wave of immigrants.
So it's pretty clear that huge differences exist between ethnic groups in attitudes and will to adapt to the host society. In Japan, the Chinese are in fact the group that is the most stigmatised by the Japanese. But there are reasons for that. Contrarily to the European Chinese, those in Japan do commit more crime than any other ethnic group in Japan (see
stats). In that case, purely racial arguments cannot be brought, as the Japanese often cannot tell a Chinese apart, especially if they speak well Japanese. But contrarily to Europe, some of the Chinese in Japan run prostitution rings and other illegal activities. There are also obvious political tensions between the two countries (that don't really exist between Belgium and Morocco, for instance).
Yet, I think that most of the Chinese in Japan are much better adapted than most Maghrebans, Black Africans and even Pakistani in Western Europe. It's just that the Japanese government and people are less accommodating toward foreigners in general. In the thread
Discrimination in France (vs Japan). I have explained how discrimination is more a problem in Japan. An interviewed Arab in France said that he felt "hatred" toward French people after being refused entry to 2 or 3 nightclubs. I wish him never to come to Japan ! How is he going to feel when even some hotels, restaurants or real estate agencies turn him down because he is or look like a "foreigner" or assume that he can't speak Japanese, even if he grew up there, because he does not look Japanese. I have never heard of Arabs being told that they can't enter a hotel because they were told that foreign-lloking people can't speak French, and that it would cause inconvenience with the hotel staff !
Conclusion, in France, Belgium and Britain, the so-called "immigration problems" do not really stem from immigration itself, but of some particular groups of immigranst that refuse to adapt to their host country. They are typically poor, uneducated rather than just from developing countries. Muslims tend to have more difficult to adapt, but Islam itself is not even the main reason, as we have seen with the comparatively well-adpated Bangladeshi and Turks. The problem is really one of motivation to integrate the host society and avoid causing troubles.
I thus agree with Duo that those immgrants choose to isolate themselves, and even strive to recreate the lifestyle of their home country as much as they can in the host country. It's pretty close to the situation in Israel of Hebrew families settling in the middle of Arabic land and creating their own ghettoes hoping that no Arab will come within their new "boundaries". The difference is that it is the Arabs who are creating "self-isolated settlments" in Belgium and France, and that contrarily to the Jews, they have absolutely no historical or political claim to the land.
