Fustanella

[gtcc1]

Albanians

Albanians does not belong nor to dinaric race nor to dinaric haplotype. It is mostly very short people, totaly oposite of tall Montenegrins beside them. That difference is so obvious that every Yugoslav, only by physical appearance, could recognize Albanian. I lived among Albanians for a very long period, and I am telling what I saw.
Also, as far I know there is no any kind of scientific proof that Albanians have anything in common with Illyrians, nor in language, nor in archeological findings.That Illyromania was part of Albanian national revival, the same way as it was used in Croatia with Illyrian movement.

I guess you are not well read! See Charlton Coon, Mountain of Giants, what he indicates about Albanians.

 

[iapetoc]

I guess you are not well read! See Charlton Coon, Mountain of Giants, what he indicates about Albanians.

nop he is true,
Albanians do not belong to Dinaric race, they are short mostly and big heads, that is mediterrenean type,

 

[gtcc1]

nop he is true,
Albanians do not belong to Dinaric race, they are short mostly and big heads, that is mediterrenean type,

Yes, whatever "he is true" means, but the fact is that he or you don't know what you are talking about. Please go to your diner and wash some dishes.

 

[Maciamo]

I saw on TV that the Turks also have a kind of bagpipe, known as the tulum. But the most interesting is that this instrument is confined to the north-east part of Tukrey, next to the Georgian and Armenian border, among the Laz, Hamsheni people, and Pontic Greeks. This is exactly the region which I associated with the cradle of R1b1b and Pre-Proto-Indo-European language, before the migration across the Caucasus to the Pontic steppes. Within Greece, the most famous bagpipes are the askomandoura from Crete. Interestingly Crete also happens to be a hotspot for R1b (at least the Lasithi plateau, which has over 40% of R1b).

The bagpipe could therefore be a genuine Indo-European musical instrument, as it is found in regions thousands of kilometres apart from each that only have R1b1b in common (e.g. Scotland/Ireland, France, Iberia, northern Italy, Germany, Albania, Crete, north-east Turkey and Armenia). R1a regions also have bagpipes (Poland, Ukraine, Iran, India) but it is far rarer than in R1b regions.

 

[Zajaz]

In regard to topic, I'd say that Fustanella trace its origin back to the Illyrians and a certain section of Pre-Greeks (it's very likely Mycenians wore also a kind of fustanella). This dress could survive into mountainous areas of Illyria and Epirus, which corresponds roughly with Albania. Later on, it was spread in Greece by Albanians warriors who fought valiantly against Ottomans. With the formation of first Greek kingdom, the dress of Albanian warriors was adopted as official dress of the army.

 

[iapetoc]

In regard to topic, I'd say that Fustanella trace its origin back to the Illyrians and a certain section of Pre-Greeks (it's very likely Mycenians wore also a kind of fustanella). This dress could survive into mountainous areas of Illyria and Epirus, which corresponds roughly with Albania. Later on, it was spread in Greece by Albanians warriors who fought valiantly against Ottomans. With the formation of first Greek kingdom, the dress of Albanian warriors was adopted as official dress of the army.

are you sure?
cause sarakatsan (Greeks fro Bulgaria) fustanella is also spread among Greeks, that means fustanella is not only epirotan or Greek,
besides its simmilar like ancient chiton and different from place to place,

maybe you should check ancient Greek χιτων and Byzantine Ποσδεναλλι before you determine the origin.

 

[Besir Bajrami]

iapetoc,
Albanians are dinaric, alpine and mediterrenean type of race, not only mediterrenean. - Just like other componentes of identity of a culture, like language and symbols, also the Race tell us the same...

So, just like albanian language is linked whith illyrian, thracian (dacian...), etruscian, old greek, hittit... ;
...and who is the common denominator, of these languageges: Illyrian, Thracian, Hittit, Etruscan, old Greek... ?! - Of course, Pelasgian language.
- ...and why for albanian language, scientists can not decide finally from which of these above language, Albanian language is derived ?! (as we know albanian language contains words from all these aforementioned languages) - ... this "enigma" can be solved (by the way, read "Enigma" from Robert D'Angely) only when is connected directly the Pelasgian whith Albanian language.

So that's why many scholars, rightly, could not determine or Generalized Albanian alone or as part of a group of languages. Once some think that it's Centum, once as SATEM (in fact it serves as a link between these groups, it is a more proof that it stands on above these groups), somtimes of Illyrian origin, Thracian, Dacian, Etruscan, Celtic, Frigian, Hitite or sometimes as the oldest branch of the Indo-European, sometims pre-proto-Indo-European sometimes Anatolian, Paleo-Balkan language sometimes, etc.. Also, this approach are mixet more from albanian langauge "artifacts" that will be noted from Egypt, Middle East, Caucasus, Illyrian peninsula, Apenin ... all around the Mediterranean.
This confusing approach purified when proved the direct connection beetwen Pelasgian and todays Albanian language;


- Also and symbols, mythology... tell us the same thing. So the eace is also linked or a combination of dinaric, alpine and mediterrenean type of race, and stored in the "Extract of Pelasgians", or todays albanians...


__________
- Broadening as much in antiquity, the more peoples and nations emerge united with each other, originating from a common extract... In this point, albanians have preserved their language, culture and their ancient race, intact (retreated to mountains, from permanent invasions) from the winds of alienation what happened with all nations... So, when you'll study the albanian question in all its components (like many free scholars, linguist, historian, archaeologist, anthropologist, artist... did, and I mention some of them), you'll encounter elements of the most ancient language, culture, race... that have existed in the world and what is more important, is still alive today {Considering that the oldest world civilization has moved all around the Mediterranean and today with the help of scientists we find traces of albanian language, culture and race, from Egypt, Middle East, Caucasus, Illyrian (Balkan) and Apenin Peninsula... and now you can sync the input of the Mediterranean culture in World culture and finaly you can understand my approach}.
Spesifically, if we talk about Fustanella (http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/26.html), I thing that is an albanian culture element, but not only.It's a element of ancient culture and was preserved from the extract of that culture, but we have to know and to accept the fact that she was adobted from other latter cultures (like greeks does). We have old artifacts that verify the use of fustanella from Pelasgians/Illyrians long time ago... for example, this artifact is from V cent. BC http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/706...vjetmar2nx.jpg

...found in north Illyria (Sllovenia), or this one in Durres Albania, from the IV century BC: http://zeus10.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=659772

... Also we had those in Egypt but we have to know that Pelasgians (like a very old culture) were in Egypt too. Also, about pelasgian element in Egypt, take into consideration the work of linguists (+freemasons) like Granam Hancock & Robert Bauval or Giuseppe Catapano, after 40 years of scientific work, brought to light the book: "Thot spoke in albanian"(listed above)



Just like the Pelasgian language, culture and DNA is distributed as element in subsequent cultures and peoples, synonymous with this concept is when we say that in that period are distributed the Albanian language roots in those languages, because pelasgians (albanians) were here (like proto-indo-europian) ...http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751



... before greeks come whith indo-europians...http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751






Don't make me to proceed repeating the arguments, just read them and think... !

Here you are: Info +... http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page4

_____________________________________________________________
Albanian people belong to the older Mediterraneans according to linguistic and genetic parameters; they would have establish in the Balkans before Greeks and Slavs...
Greeks have been shown by both genetic and historical data that do not belong to the ancient genetic pool.They are relative new-comers because the Indoeuropean (pre-Mycaenian) Greeks came to the Balkanic Peninsula by 2.000 BC paid tribute to Minoans, and destroy their empire by 1.450 BC; they absorbed Minoan culture and writing system and built their own Aegean Sea empire (Arnaiz-Villena et al 1999a). Greeks remain as outliers in all our HLA genetic analyses (Table 6 and unpublished)...
_____________________________________________________________




http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=247897&l=53a0cd559a&id=100001133356751

+
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=135963&l=bb02a77da5&id=100001133356751

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=136306&l=0a9b1dab5e&id=100001133356751

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=85371&l=5804042641&id=100001133356751

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=247897&l=53a0cd559a&id=100001133356751

And please stop writing from your pseudo-nationalism approach, because in this way, you interrupt the normal flow of arguments (as we now, the science always had problems whith people like you) !

 

[Elias2]

What does something found in slovenia have to do with albanians?

 

[iapetoc]

iapetoc,
Albanians are dinaric, alpine and mediterrenean type of race, not only mediterrenean. - Just like other componentes of identity of a culture, like language and symbols, also the Race tell us the same...

So, just like albanian language is linked whith illyrian, thracian (dacian...), etruscian, old greek, hittit... ;
...and who is the common denominator, of these languageges: Illyrian, Thracian, Hittit, Etruscan, old Greek... ?! - Of course, Pelasgian language.
- ...and why for albanian language, scientists can not decide finally from which of these above language, Albanian language is derived ?! (as we know albanian language contains words from all these aforementioned languages) - ... this "enigma" can be solved (by the way, read "Enigma" from Robert D'Angely) only when is connected directly the Pelasgian whith Albanian language.

First Try to understand who is Zeus10 and the others, remember Zeus10 made a new Godess the Hy god!!!!!! to connect Greek ευχαν with a tomb, he found that there an ancient God name Hy!!!!
it is a science fiction story maker, like Liakopoulos
Stupid Nationalist who push Panalbanism and even in some videos they make Egyptians and Phillistines Albanians,!!!!

second
Pelasgians, they are connected with Cyprus and south minor Asia, they mostly belong to Hattians language and towrds pre-Semitic.

Pelasgians are the south and the North,
South Pelasgians are the Minoans, the Atheneans, North Pelasgians are the Pelasgian Argos and the Cadmeians,

brothers or true Pelasgians are Etruscans, possibly Troy were Pelasgians,

Pelasgian are connected with Greeks, Etruria Latin, minor Asia, ancient Illyrians,
Pelasgians also connect with upper Egypt and Phillistines,

Pelasgians origin coulld be area of cyprus and minor Asia,
they are connected with G and J Y-Dna,

Linguistic of Pelasgian,
1) it is not IE
2 it is connected with Etruscan Anatolian and Semitic,

that means
Pelasgians were not Thracians, not Celts, Not Hettits, not Vrygians,
Pelasgians language is what ever ancient in ALbanian Language that can connect not in IE with Greek Latin Turkish and Hebrew Phillistine same time.
like word Erevet Ερρεβος Erebu which exist in 3 at least languages,
aqua ωκεανος sou (turkic water) etc

so any connection with Thracian and Pelasgian is out of Discussion cause Thracian never pass the Dinaric Alps before until Strabo times and much later in Roman occupation, exept Brygians,

Now to understand the linguistic of modern Albania,

unknown language in far far ancient,
Enter the Celtic in dalmatia and Illyria,
enter the Pelasgian (Cadmeian Branch) in Illyria, the area is named Illyria by Greeks,
Enter the Vrygians in areas of east Illyria, Dardania,
Greeks colonise the coasts of Illyria,
Vrygians leave to minor Asia
Messapic Language is adopted by Illyrians (not Illyricum)
enter the Romans the Illyria is Bigger includes and others and becomes Illyricum
the chapter ancient Illyria is finished,

All the above are pure centum languages,

1040 Ad first time the word Arbanites is mentioned, the Army of Maniakis,
later Progons state,
Anju (cumans!!!) state of Alba,
Normands, Serbs, etc,
Hungric Daco-Romanians (Hunyade)
Alba Lullia of Daci
Albanian is a Satem language???
Thracian possibly vocabulary from Dacia,
some gennetic Analysis send us to Romania and Italy, hmmm
the different syntax of Arbanitika with Albanika
that means a devastation of the ancient tribe Albocense that were Daco-Thracian in Moesia had happened, the exact time is estimated at the times of Anju,
Later the Vallavan pasa, and satemization is complete.

so as you see K Rasulli is right, and all evidence are showing that Albanian is a new nation that is based uppon ancient Illyrian tribes, Aromani some south slavic, some Italians that follow Maniakis when left Italy to revolt, and of a new culture imported by Moesia,

So Albanian language is a new Language that is Based in Daci-Thracians, but has ellements from the ancient culture of Illyrians,
try to understand the difference of Illyria proprie Dicti, which was not considered Thracian not Greeks not by Romans (Strabo) from Roman Illyricum, and the Thracian ( if exist, I dont doubt simply I want you to think) in modern Albanian
then you understand who were the Pelasgian in Illyria, and what was their language,

the whole case is showing that a peacefull devastation, or a rough one (maniakis army)
had happened among 900 -1100 AD and continued until 1400-1500 AD
so the Albanoi (daco-thracian) tribes and phatrias manage after Progon 1rst, but mainly after Kastrioti to create a unification movement, albanises local ancient cultures, and from that unification movement created Albanian nation of Today.

Modern Albanians are a part of ancient Illyrians (pelasgian + Celtic) and a part old moesian Albocense (Daco-Thracian)

...found in north Illyria (Sllovenia), or this one in Durres Albania, from the IV century BC: http://zeus10.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=659772

... Also we had those in Egypt but we have to know that Pelasgians (like a very old culture) were in Egypt too. Also, about pelasgian element in Egypt, take into consideration the work of linguists (+freemasons) like Granam Hancock & Robert Bauval or Giuseppe Catapano, after 40 years of scientific work, brought to light the book: "Thot spoke in albanian"(listed above)

Well as you said in Durres
Durres <- Dyrrachium <- Epidamnos

well these fustanellas were found outside a GREEK CITY!!!!!!!!
that is why.

Slovenia was never Illyria, But Illyricum, find out why.


I wander in that mosaic what Alexander is wearing?

Surely the name is KONTEA

now if you know about Fustanella, then tell me what is KONTEA



REMEMBER THE NAME OF KARAKATSAN (sarakatsan)
THE POLITES AND THE KASSANDREIAN,
THE BLACK FUSTANELLA FROM 1452
WHICH IS THE FIRST HISTORICALLY OF THE WORD IS AFTER THEM.

cause Con/polis had Fallen to Islam,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarakatsani



Ο λόγος για την ονομασία αυτή είναι ότι οι Σαρακατσάνοι μετά την Άλωση της Κωνσταντινούπολης φορούσαν μαύρη ενδυμασία ως ένδειξη πένθους, ενώ έσφαζαν τα λευκά πρόβατα και κρατούσαν μόνο τα μαύρα. Επίσης κατέφυγαν ως κλέφτες στα βουνά ώστε να μην υποταχθούν στον κατακτητή και να τον πολεμούν από εκεί. Έτσι οι Τούρκοι τους προσέδωσαν την ονομασία Καρακατσάν, δηλαδή «μαύρος φυγάς». Οι ίδιοι οι Σαρακατσάνοι άρχισαν να χρησιμοποιούν αυτό το όνομα μετά το 1812, το οποίο είναι σχετικά νέο, προσδιορίζοντας έναν λαό που προϋπήρχε του ονόματος.


Remember that Modern Fustanella is just a water resistant, you know why and how, while the fight cloth is Kontea and Posdenalli

indeed it is an ancient cloth, that remained in Balkans

 

[Besir Bajrami]

@ Elias 2

What does something found in slovenia have to do with albanians?

Because in that region lived Illyrian tribes, like Japodes, Histrits, Letobiks, Golapians... (and we all know that south slavs came much latter):
+ Illyrian tribes:
http://kuksiskupialba.tripod.com/kuksi/FisetIlire.JPG

This region (Illyrian and Apenin peninsula and all Mediterranean), was an RESTRICTION area, as a result of continuous EXPANSION, that has already served as the source (genesis), later to serve in the liaison function of the distribution of peoples, languages and cultures, mainly from east to west. That's why many ancient cultures, can find similarity whith albanian culture, race and language (as an extract of pelasgians) ...

...and only albanians of today (retreated to mountains, from permanent invasions), DIRECLTY represent the race, culture, language of pelasgians (as we now, illyrians were part of them): http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=23767&id=100001133356751&l=5e6b160e5a !


Also, we have to take in to consideration the phenomen of assimilationan what happent whith other illyrians. That's why only south slavs have some illyrian blood in their haplogropus, and other slavs not!

Info +

Old Maps:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/363506/2196/Herodotus-map-of-the-world

http://www.old-map-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/World_Map_Herodotus.jpg

Read more:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.139407142773730.23767.100001133356751&l=5e6b160e5a

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.110082529039525.4389.100001133356751&l=e76312b2b0

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.166727643375013.33089.100001133356751&l=b57fb2c0b3
...

 

[iapetoc]

Besir Bajrami

I don't need any more you 're bullshit and personal science fiction stories, if you are Zeus10 you better suicide,

told you many times it is another the Illyria proprie dicti and ANOTHER the Illyricum,

Japodes Liburni there are not Illyrians Proprie dicti, try to understand it, they are not connected with Pelasgians.


enough with the B... of Zeus10, the man is Liakopoulos brother,
in your next post you will tell us that Zeus was an albanian God who lived in Ceraunia mountains,
and fustanella came from planet sirion

besides look at you.
you have either an ancient Pelasgian Avatar or a modern Nazi
wich is connected with a Daci family (you know who)
and you have an Arab-Turkish name.
Maybe tomorrow you will tell us that Fustanella is Turkish.

first try to find who are you!!! and then speak about Fustanella,
Now have you checked your Y-DNA?

All your maps are Illyricum and not Illyria so stop B......

 

[iapetoc]

I saw on TV that the Turks also have a kind of bagpipe, known as the tulum. But the most interesting is that this instrument is confined to the north-east part of Tukrey, next to the Georgian and Armenian border, among the Laz, Hamsheni people, and Pontic Greeks. This is exactly the region which I associated with the cradle of R1b1b and Pre-Proto-Indo-European language, before the migration across the Caucasus to the Pontic steppes. Within Greece, the most famous bagpipes are the askomandoura from Crete. Interestingly Crete also happens to be a hotspot for R1b (at least the Lasithi plateau, which has over 40% of R1b).

The bagpipe could therefore be a genuine Indo-European musical instrument, as it is found in regions thousands of kilometres apart from each that only have R1b1b in common (e.g. Scotland/Ireland, France, Iberia, northern Italy, Germany, Albania, Crete, north-east Turkey and Armenia). R1a regions also have bagpipes (Poland, Ukraine, Iran, India) but it is far rarer than in R1b regions.

well the Turkish name is Tulum, the Armenian, Laz, , the Greek name is Gkainda Γκαιντα in North, cause sounds like a donkey (gaidaros). Tsapouna in Islands, Zampogna in Italy.
also you can hear it as Duduk or pipiza or but rare.

official ancient Greek name is ASKOS or Ασκαυλος Askaulos while pontics called it αγγειον (Akigio). (bag, sac), (bag+pipe)

it exist also in Magna Grecia in some Grigo Villages, Greek Makedonia, and even North to Fyrom Bulgaria Albania and almost south Serbia,

Epirotan style Gaida

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8g3Hy-YKi0&feature=related

Thracian style Gaida

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sVFUwMhYIE&feature=related

Μακεδονιαν Gaida

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI5rXZDxKfU

Pelloponhsian Gaida

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1kqwJ3oVow&feature=related

Pontian Greek Ακιγιο (Aggeion Ionic Greek only, means)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsnXbuHMn9A&feature=related

Cretan Gaida

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hePe9ymSX1I


in many areas it is replaced by clarinet.


in Italy it is also common especially in south where shares the same name with Smyrna and Aegean islands, (Tsampouna, Zampogna)
But is tottaly different in sound, it is more western that eastern,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKpEMeTop_I&feature=related

Allbanian gajde

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmuw...ay&list=PL8ECA03E1FF59D8C2&index=3&playnext=2

Serbian gajdy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv4yxB7GKIc

Bylgarian kaba gaida.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu-Mw6j3RWw

Lazic dankiyo (Aggeion)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy5Olq1l54
you may have a point of right here,

the laz and Pontic and greek (not magna Grecia) is different from the others, it has not drone like the others, it is more primitive,

well you could be right, south of Colchis is the area the Greek Persian and Armenian meet.
it is also the area that Hettits believed entered minor Asia.

the most ancient Gold area is Colchis (Argonauts, golden fleece)
and later Lydia (Paktolos river)

From ancient time Caucasus was known to Greeks although name it that time Αξεινος, probably due to Pelasgian. - Hattians that lived in Greece that time,
the later connection of Pontic Greeks with Persian Laz (mithridates was laz) could be due to Aryan?
the Greco aryan point in minor asia?

Laz pontic Greeks and pre-Venetian Cretes share the same culture,
even almost same language,
there are many works about that. specially in linguistic.

Laz are considered Persian and Greeks and Georgians most relationship.

they also share Kemanes -Kemence which can br found in Pontic Greeks, Cretans, Thracians, South Italy, Greek Thracians, but not elsewhere, alternative name is lyra in Crete.

διαγγειον dakinyo Riza-lar

 

[Elias2]

Because in that region lived Illyrian tribes, like Japodes, Histrits, Letobiks, Golapians... (and we all know that south slavs came much latter)

The south slavic migration did not fully replace every population like you seem to think because its supports your nationalists rhetoric. Albanians as Ilyrians? Albanians are genetically related with greeks more than their northern neighbours. Genetically albanians as Illyrians is not a very strong arguement. I think you over-estimate the origins of albanians.

 

[Besir Bajrami]

@ Elias2

The south slavic migration did not fully replace every population like you seem to think

Of course, that's why in Illyrian peninsula (Balkans), still exist a non-slavic nation, who call them self "sons of the eagle" (Albanians)

because its supports your nationalists rhetoric.

If you'll read little bit about Albanian history, you would understand that they have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!). Than you'll see whith different approach this question. And finaly you'll understand that albanians are the weakest nationalists of the globe! - We should take in to consideration the facts and arguments, even that will suport or contrary of an X theory.

Albanians as Ilyrians? Albanians are genetically related with greeks more than their northern neighbours. Genetically albanians as Illyrians is not a very strong arguement. I think you over-estimate the origins of albanians

Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscian, Hellens... were cultures, not races, not nations... who were all conected whith pelasgians as autochthons. Albanians of today, are an original surivived extract of pelasgian, who keep the original culture, language and race (retreated to mountains, from permanent invasions)... all connected whith above cultures. That's why, except illyrians, thracians, etruscians... albanians have to do and whith ancient greeks, becuase only they arive to maintain their ancient identity (of these ancient cultures, who interact among themselves) in all it's components (race, language, culture...).
Gentically, todays greeks can argue their connection with the ancient Greeks, only through the Albanians assimilated gene in Greek of today (because the others are slavs, orthodox mongols... who came latter in Greece) and roots or smaller semantic units of meaning in their language, who are pure Albanian. As with the south Slavs in the north, who try to explain their genetic link with the Illyrians, through a part of Illyrian gens assimilated in south Slavic. It's very simple to undersand, I don't know why you complicate these historic facts !

@ iapetoc
... don't loose your control man! - Why you always attempt to deal with my personality and not whith "what I say!" - Remember the rules of communication: Do not take whith the form, but whith the essence!
P.S: Even that "illyricum" was "illyricum" because there were living illyrian tribes, anyway, all these maps what i've posted above, were before creation of "illyricum" as an administrative unit

+

These maps tell us the same. Pelasgian territory, is in fact the Illyrian territory, or the opposite:

...

_________________________
Just to refresh the discussion (whill be nice, for the sake of the communication rules, to respond about every sentence one by one... and not only to offend and nothing else):

The credits belong To Pellasgians
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=The+credits+belong+To+Pellasgians+&aq=f

"Q. What was Greece before the time of the Hellenes.
A.Strabo in his Geography Strabonis Book 7
Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of
the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians


Q.When Hellenes are mentioned for the first time

A.Thucydides/History_of_The_Peloponnesia n_War_-_Book_I/

There is also another circumstance that contributes not a little to my conviction of the weakness of ancient times. Before the Trojan war there is no indication of any common action in Hellas, nor indeed of the universal prevalence of the name(Helen)........went by the names of the different tribes, in particular of the Pelasgian.......The best proof of this is furnished by Homer. Born long after the Trojan War, he nowhere calls all of them by that name(helens)..........He does not even use the term barbarian, probably because the Hellenes had not yet been marked off from the rest of the world by one distinctive appellation...gradually acquired from the connection the name of Hellenes; though a long time elapsed before that name could fasten itself upon all(after 8th century BC )

Homer Born ca. 8th century BC

Conclusion NO Helenes before 8 th century

Q.Which were the population of greece before Helenes
A. Acheans or Argives, Danaio, Cecropes, Arcadians

Q Acheans , Argives, Danaio, Cecropes, Arcadians belong to pelasgian nation? (Modified )
A. Yes...................Why?

1.Argos, the kingdom of Agamemnon, famous for its cities Mycenae and Tirynth, where have been discovered in our time priceless treasures of a buried Pelasgian civilization, had also been a country of the Pelasgians. Argos is given the name Pelasgia by Eschyl (Prom. v. 860), Euripides (Orestes, v. 675, 849, 1611; Iphig. in Aulida, v. 1494; Erakles mainomenos, v. 462), Eustathius (Comm. In Dionysium, 347), and Strabo (lib. VIII. 6. 9).
2.Arcadia, a region surrounded by mountains and inhabited by a pastoral people with simple and patriarchal mores, had once the name “Pelasgia” (Steph. Byz. ‘Arkadia; Herodotus, lib.I. 146).
3.Beotia also, a country rich in sheep flocks and herds of cattle and horses, with the famous Parnassus and Helicon mountains, with their fine valleys dedicated to the divinities, had been inhabited in ancient times by Pelasgians (Strabo, lib. IX. 2. 25; Ibid. IX. 2. 3).
4.The entire Peloponessus, a country covered in vast woodlands, crisscrossed by numerous rivers and streams, with very favorable conditions for a pastoral life, had been called in antiquity Pelasgia, as the historians Acusilaus (fragm 11, Frag. Hist. graec. I. p. 101), and Ephorus (fragm. 54, ibid. p. 248; Pliny, lib. IV. 5. 1) tell us.
5.Thessaly, the most fertile and beautiful territory of ancient Greece, situated between Olympus, Ossa, Pelion and Pindus mountains, had once bore the name Pelasgicon Argos (Homer, Iliad, II. v. 681; Strabo, Geogr. VIII. 6. 5), Pelasgicon pedion (Strabo, Geogr. Ix. 5. 22), meaning the plain of the Pelasgians, and Pelasgia (Hecateus, Fragm. 334, in Fragm Hist. graec. I. Ed. Didot, p. 25; Ibid, vol. IV. P. 501; Eustathius, Comm. In Dionysium v. 427).


Q.What are Hellenes?
A. Herodotus:
from The History, c. 430 B.C., I.56-59

we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body...The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. ...... It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.

So they(helenes) were scanty in numbers and little powers, therefore the culture and territories belonged to Pelasgians.

Q.Who are pelasgians?
A.Strabonis Book VII
....And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians--Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the thracians,and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei,the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes--Epeirotic tribes.

Q. Who are Illyrians, and Epeirotes and Macedonians(old)
1.-----A. SCANDERBED (Albanian national hero)

knowledge of my race. My elders(for all albanians not Scanderbeg only-my note) were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies."

"I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep(ALBANIANS-my note). But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
2.------DICTIONARIVM -LATINO-EPIROTICVM
http://www.mdevaan.nl/research/Blanchus.pdf


Herodotus Clio pg 13 These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for duringthe reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians. What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi

Herodotus, Polymnia ix.) .....The Ionians furnished a hundred ships, and were armed like the Greeks. Now these Ionians, during the time that they dwelt in the Peloponnese and inhabited the land now called Achaea (which wasbefore the arrival of Danaus and Xuthus in the Peloponnese), were called, according to the Greek account, Aegialean Pelasgi, or "Pelasgi of the Sea-shore"; but afterwards, from Ion the son of Xuthus, they were called Ionians.

Herodotus Urania pg 9 The Athenians, when the region which is now called Greece was held by the Pelasgi, were Pelasgians, and bore the name of Cranaans; but under their king Cecrops, they were called Cecropidae

The Islanders furnished seventeen ships, and wore arms like the
Greeks. They too were a Pelasgian race, who in later times took the name of Ionians for the same reason me reason as those who inhabited the twelve cities founded from Athens.

The Aeolians furnished sixty ships, and were equipped in the
Grecian fashion. They too were anciently called Pelasgians, as the
Greeks declare.

Iliad Rapsodies 1-6 The Dardanians were led by brave Aeneas, whom Venus bore to Anchises, when she, goddess though she was, had lain with him upon the mountain slopes of Ida. He was not alone, for with him were the two sons of Antenor, Archilochus and Acamas, both skilled in all the arts of war

Homerus Iliad Rapsodies i) Hippothous led the tribes of Pelasgian spearsmen, who dwelt in fertile Larissa- Hippothous, and Pylaeus of the race of Mars, two sons of the Pelasgian Lethus, son of Teutamus


New authors:
Dorian Greeks settled in Illyria before 2000 BC, ancient regions of the Balkan peninsula occupied by Indo-European-speaking tribes, including the Dalmatians and Pannonians. Warlike and piratical, they withstood (6th cent. B.C.) Greeks attracted by their iron mines and later attacks by Macedonians.
The Romans conquered them and set up (168-167 B.C.) the province of Illyricum.

The following ex. give a clear answer about argives, danaus, peloponesus and arcadians, tyrrenoi people, thesaly(when achiles comes from) etc

1.Strabonis Book V Chapter 2 ... And Thessaly is called "the Pelasgian Argos..

1.Hecataeus, makes Pelasgus king of Thessaly (expounding Iliad, 2.681-684)

2.Sophocles takes the same view (Inachus, fragment. 256) and for the first time introduces the ethnonym Tyrrhenoi, apparently as synonymous with "Pelasgians

3. Hellanicus(Supplices I, sqq.), repeats this identification a generation later, and identifies this Argive or Arcadian Pelasgus with the Thessalian Pelasgus of Hecataeus.

4.The historian Ephorus preserves a passage from Hesiod that attests to a tradition of an aboriginal Pelasgian people in Arcadia, and developed a theory of the Pelasgians as a warrior-people spreading from a "Pelasgian home", and annexing and colonizing all the parts of Greece.

.------
and here a part of the list of people who participated in war
......
PHLEGYAI

Capital: Trikke

"They who held Trikke and the terraced place of Ithome, and Oikhalia, the city of Oikhalian Eurytos, of these in turn the leaders were two sons of Asklepios, good healers both themselves, Podaleirios and Makhaon. In their command were marshalled thirty hollow vessels." - Homer, The Iliad 2.729

ORMENIOS

Capital: Ormenios

"They who held Ormenios and the spring of Hypereia, they who held Asterion and the pale peaks of Titanos, Eurypylos led these, the shining son of Euaimon. Following along with him were forty black ships." - Homer, The Iliad 2.734

DOROS

At the time of the Trojan War the kingdom of Doros was ruled by the Herakleidai (sons of Herakles). They did not take part in the Trojan War since the Heraklid suitor of Helene, Tlepolemos, had been exiled to the island of Rhodes.

LAPITHAI

Capital: Gyrtone

"They who held Argissa and dwelt about Gyrtone, Orthe and Elone and the white city of Oloosson, of these the leader was Polypoites, stubborn in battle, son of Peirithoos whose father was Zeus immortal, he whom glorious Hippodameia bore to Peirithoos on that day when he wreaked vengeance on the Pheres [the Centaurs] and drove them from Pelion ... Following in the guidance of these were forty black ships." - Homer, The Iliad 2.738
Remember..... Hippothous led the tribes of Pelasgian spearsmen

PERRRHAIBIA

Capital: Kyphos, Dodona

"Gouneus from Kyphos led two and twenty vessels, and the Enienes and the Perrhaibians stubborn in battle followed him, they who made their homes by wintry Dodona, and they who by lovely Titaressos held the tilled acres, Titaressos, who into Peneios casts his bright current: yet he is not mixed with silver whirls of Peneios, but like oil is floated along the surface above him." - Homer, The Iliad 2.748
..........


So Dorians (hellenes) did not take part in war, period.

Go to google and punch "dorians origin"
You will see " Greeks Origin"
These people are the only greeks history knows and their roots are from Illyria+epirus=arberia(in old times was bigger than that)


Dorian

Any member of a major division of the ancient Greeks. Coming from the north and northwest, they conquered the Peloponnese c. 1100 – 1000 BC, overran the remnants of the Mycenaean and Minoan civilizations, and ushered in a dark age that lasted almost three centuries, until the rise of the Greek city-states. They had their own dialect and were organized into three tribes. Patterns of settlement determined their alliances in later Greek conflicts. To Greek culture they gave the Doric order of architecture, the tragic choral lyric, and a militarized aristocratic government. They assimilated into Greek societies in some cases, but in Sparta and Crete they held power and resisted cultural advancement.

North and northwest means-Illyria+epirus

Minoan (3000-1500 BC)
"Minoan" culture on Crete, with large population and rich palace-centres. Non-Greek speakers.(Linear A - still undeciphered)

Dark Age" (transition to Iron Age) (1100-850 BC) Dorians enter in Greece About 1100 (b.c.) the Dorians entered the area, armed with iron spears and shields and whipped out the Myceans.
Break-up of Mycenaean civilization; Greek settlements throughout the Aegean Islands and the coast of Asia Minor. (Linear B script used for palace records)

Geometric and Archaic Period (850-480 BC)
Alphabetic script adapted from Phoenician in Greece, ca 750.
Emergence of the classical Greek city-states, governed by family groups or dictators (mainly 7th-6th century),or democracies (begun by Athens, 5th century)

High Classical Period (480-323 BC)
Greek city-states flourish until overshadowed by the powerful Macedonian kings. Philip of Macedon rules Greece; his son Alexander campaigns as far east as India, conquering Persia and Egypt, before dying in 323 BC

Hellenistic Period (323-146 BC); Roman Republic (to 44 BC)
Alexander's empire fragments into Greek monarchies in Macedonia, Syria and Egypt.
Roman overseas expansion begins in 208 BC;
Hellenization of Roman myth & religion.
Greece becomes a Roman province.
The Roman Republic ends with a seizure of power by Julius Caesar (assassinated 44 BC)

c.1100 The Dorians destroyed Mycenae. According to legend, Timenos, Chief of the Dorians, founded the Argos Regime in Peloponnesus. Xanthos, Chief of the Aeolians, founded the Thebes Regime in Boeotia.
Do you understand now that Achaeans were wiped out by Helenes(Dorians).Therefore they dont belong to Hellenes culture. On the top of that Achaeans had only very limited territory occupying only the northern part of the Peloponnesus on the Gulf of Corinth. What about the rest?

Ionians, Arcadians and Aeolians were originally pelasgians and joined the helenic body only shortly before the begining of High Classical Period.

1. ---- Argos, the kingdom of Agamemnon, famous for its cities Mycenae and Tirynth, where have been discovered in our time priceless treasures of a buried Pelasgian civilization, had also been a country of the Pelasgians. Argos is given the name Pelasgia by Eschyl (Prom. v. 860), Euripides (Orestes, v. 675, 849, 1611; Iphig. in Aulida, v. 1494; Erakles mainomenos, v. 462), Eustathius (Comm. In Dionysium, 347), and Strabo (lib. VIII. 6. 9).
2.---- Arcadia, a region surrounded by mountains and inhabited by a pastoral people with simple and patriarchal mores, had once the name “Pelasgia” (Steph. Byz. ‘Arkadia; Herodotus, lib.I. 146).
3.---- Beotia also, a country rich in sheep flocks and herds of cattle and horses, with the famous Parnassus and Helicon mountains, with their fine valleys dedicated to the divinities, had been inhabited in ancient times by Pelasgians (Strabo, lib. IX. 2. 25; Ibid. IX. 2. 3).
4.---- The entire Peloponessus, a country covered in vast woodlands, crisscrossed by numerous rivers and streams, with very favorable conditions for a pastoral life, had been called in antiquity Pelasgia, as the historians Acusilaus (fragm 11, Frag. Hist. graec. I. p. 101), and Ephorus (fragm. 54, ibid. p. 248; Pliny, lib. IV. 5. 1) tell us.
5.---- Thessaly, the most fertile and beautiful territory of ancient Greece, situated between Olympus, Ossa, Pelion and Pindus mountains, had once bore the name Pelasgicon Argos (Homer, Iliad, II. v. 681; Strabo, Geogr. VIII. 6. Pelasgicon pedion (Strabo, Geogr. Ix. 5. 22), meaning the plain of the Pelasgians, and Pelasgia (Hecateus, Fragm. 334, in Fragm Hist. graec. I. Ed. Didot, p. 25; Ibid, vol. IV. P. 501; Eustathius, Comm. In Dionysium v. 427)
________
Let's live in peace with our neigbour(GREEKS) because the History belong to us."

 

[iapetoc]

Myceneans were IE speakers, Greeks, Homeric was their Language,

Dorians were IE speakers,

Vrygians were IE speakers,

Thracian were IE speakers,

Pelasgian invasion started from far ancient Ancient, sesklo/dimini times is the prove,

Now Balkan people before Pelasgians we don't know what Speak,

Pelasgian entered at before 3500 BC to 550 last colony and tribe,

Pelasgian Language is link among Latin- Anatolian - Ugaretic (pre-aramaic)

there are 6 Pelasgian sub -tribes

1 The Minoans + Iones the south of thessaly
2 the Aeolians + Thettalians North of Thessaly
3 The Cadmeians who conguered the area from North Peloponese to Epirus and entered today Albania creating the Illyria propie Dicti,
4 the Thyrrenians who migrate from minor asia to Italy
5 The Peleset who are the Palaistine Palasgians and hetaians
6 The Sidetic Pelasgian who stay in Anatolia

the case of Phoeneician as Pelasgian is not for discus here, they are considered Brothers
and a few minor

now Celts had run west of Dinaric the mix of Celts and Pelasgian created ancient Illyria,
surely they could reached Pellasgian Argos (Celts).

that is why Albania is considered IE
Later IE Vrygians occupy Illyria proprie

there is also the Connection of a Daci-Thracian tribe Albocense who are connected with Albania,
that means that modern Albanians are also as Pelasgian as Celtic as Daco-Thracian,

Lapatae is the limit of Illyria,

Japodes and etc are not Pelasgians or Illyrians, they have tottaly miss of some Genes of Pelasgians

Now about Daci-Thracian case search the Germidava city. the location will help you a lot to understand the difference among Illyria and Illyricum,

It does matters to understand that, so to say to Zeus10 to correct his mistakes.

I have to repeat to understand

Illyrians is a mix of Celts and North Pelasgians and Cadmeian Pelasgians,
Albanians are ancient Illyrians and Dac0-Moesians


The name of the peninsula is not Illyrian peninsula but Αιμος Hemos Peninsula,
Later the roman name it Vulcania Βουλκανια
and later the ottomans Balkan Balcan

if you want to baptise the peninsula ....... with another name ...... hmmmmmmm

Pelasgian never passed the Lapatae.

Japodes and rest at least genetically have no link with Pelasgians.

now I want a favour,
I want you to search the Germidava city,
that will help you understand many
do you you know where is estimated?

 

[Elias2]

Of course, that's why in Illyrian peninsula (Balkans), still exist a non-slavic nation, who call them self "sons of the eagle" (Albanians)

See your ignoring the fact Illyria wasn't just in NORTHERN albania, it extanded up to slovenia and serbia. The slavs that came down didn't replace the entire populations of these areas, that's a myth, yet they are genetically really different to Albanians.

If you'll read little bit about Albanian history, you would understand that they have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!). Than you'll see whith different approach this question. And finaly you'll understand that albanians are the weakest nationalists of the globe! - We should take in to consideration the facts and arguments, even that will suport or contrary of an X theory.

Albanians history prior to 15th century is unknown because nothing is written about them. Everything you say is assumed with no evidence. The first piece of albanian history evidence is a recording of a church chant done recorded by italians. You just "fill in" the blanks with peoples that lived around that area as descrbed by GREEK sources.

Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscian, Hellens... were cultures, not races, not nations... who were all conected whith pelasgians as autochthons. Albanians of today, are an original surivived extract of pelasgian, who keep the original culture, language and race (retreated to mountains, from permanent invasions)... all connected whith above cultures. That's why, except illyrians, thracians, etruscians... albanians have to do and whith ancient greeks, becuase only they arive to maintain their ancient identity (of these ancient cultures, who interact among themselves) in all it's components (race, language, culture...).
Gentically, todays greeks can argue their connection with the ancient Greeks, only through the Albanians assimilated gene in Greek of today (because the others are slavs, orthodox mongols... who came latter in Greece) and roots or smaller semantic units of meaning in their language, who are pure Albanian. As with the south Slavs in the north, who try to explain their genetic link with the Illyrians, through a part of Illyrian gens assimilated in south Slavic. It's very simple to undersand, I don't know why you complicate these historic facts !

I don't complicate anything, you seem to have a double standard when you look at albanian history compaired to others. You say peopels are cultures not races, then you say modern greeks are not ancient greek because of "albanian" assimilation? what does albanians have to do with anything about ancient greece? because you think you are palasgian with no evidence?

You're just 100% nationalistic albanian who think your countries origins are some great ancient culture with NO evidence to back it up, you just fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Wheather YOU like to admit it or not, the first piece of evidence of albanians came from the middles ages, NOT before, so theories all you want because that's all it is, theory.

I could say with MORE certainty than you that, as supported by the first piece of albanian evidence recorded in the late middle ages,, that albanians could have been on of the cultures that the eastern roman empire let settle on their lands in return for chritianization. This is alot more realistic considering the albanians language has very little latin or greek in it that have been around that area for centuries.

 

[Gigi]

The origin of the name is not as the origin of one thing. F.ex. one nation can borrow any invention and creating his own word for that, and another nation can create invetion and borrow the word.

In albanian and yugoslavic languages is not any word for "linen", it is borrowed from turkish, but does that mean that all Balkan lacked linen before coming of turks who were probably more primitive then natives??

Hi....Im interesting to know the meaning of Gadje...what does it mean for..hmm u said for Albanians....in my language it means someone who is not from my stock ,same like for Jews goya....and another word gadia...is something to wear on?

Thanks...

 

[Besir Bajrami]

Elias:
See your ignoring the fact Illyria wasn't just in NORTHERN albania, it extanded up to slovenia and serbia. The slavs that came down didn't replace the entire populations of these areas, that's a myth, yet they are genetically really different to Albanians.

A:
You proceed whith the confusion !
I'm telling exactly the same, that Illyria wasn't just in today Albania, but it extanded up to Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Serbia. And yes, the slavs that came down didn't replace the entire illyrian population, that's why there exist a non slavic population = Albanians

{...or this one from Wadham Peacock - Albania, the foundling state of Europe: ...The three Shkypetar States, Illyria, Epirus and Macedonia, rose against Rome…
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...03224317_100001133356751_331544_3466726_n.jpg }
... and the same DNA of albanians, in todays greeks and slavs, or illyrian DNA in these south slavic population, is from that part of illyrians that were assimilated in slavic or in greek (from the church). That's why north or east slavs, didn't have these haplotypes in their DNA, but only the south slavic states who formed their contries, after invasion in Illyrian peninsula, from the VII century after C.

What about todays greeks:

Greek constitution in 1821

This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/168967_1852707323909_1427574150_2122262_1227707_n.jpg

Here is translated in english:
http://i55.tinypic.com/29qjyuu.jpg

...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.


Elias:
Albanians history prior to 15th century is unknown because nothing is written about them. Everything you say is assumed with no evidence. The first piece of albanian history evidence is a recording of a church chant done recorded by italians. You just "fill in" the blanks with peoples that lived around that area as descrbed by GREEK sources.

A:
Wrong again.
Albanian Ties with Illyrian (also read from the page 2 in this topic)

Many lines of reasoning convince linguistic scholars that the Albanian people and language originated with the ancient lllyrians.
1. The national name Albania is the name Albanoi, an Illyrian tribe mentioned by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria about A.D 150.

2. The Albanoi territory then centered at Albanopoli, between Durrës and Kruja, the heartland of modern Albania.

3. Four peoples speaking their own languages lived in the Balkans in ancient times: the Greeks in the south, the Macedonians in the center, the Thracians in the east and the lllyrians in the west. Today Albanian is spoken in most of the same region where Illyrian was spoken in ancient times.

4. Those few language elements which are known as Illyrian can be explained through the Albanian language, and no other.

5. A linguistic comparison of Albanian with ancient Greek and Latin indicates that Albanian was formed as a language at an earlier period than those other ancient languages.

6. Archeological and historical data witness to the cultural continuity from the lllyrians to the Albanians. Continual contact with other peoples and languages has left its traces in the Albanian vocabulary. Foreign words have been borrowed from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish, yet Albanian has been preserved as a separate language, its grammatical system remaining virtually unchanged.

7. Linguists point out many technical similarities between Illyrian and Albanian words.

8. Borrowings from northern Greek and from Latin incorporated in the Albanian language reflect the well-known political and cultural pressures on Illyrian territory. Linguistic studies indicate that Albanian developed from Illyrian as a distinct language between the fourth and sixth centuries A.D. Thus ancient borrowings of Greek and Latin vocabulary could not have moved directly into Albanian, but into Illyrian, through which these words entered into Albanian. Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from ancient Greek were in the Dorian dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns. Latin borrowings came later during the lengthy Roman occupation (NAlb 1986, 3:32). These ancient Greek and Roman contacts occurred precisely in the territory of old Illyria, leaving their traces in the Illyrian language from which they later passed into the Albanian language.

9. Illyrian toponyms, ancient Illyrian place names for cities, rivers and mountains, are preserved today in the Albanian language, and only in Albanian. The names of Balkan villages usually lasted only a few centuries,
for villages were often destroyed altogether during wartime. Cities lasted longer, so their names were usually older. But rivers, lakes and mountains endured through the centuries, and their ancient names usually continued in use. Even new inhabitants usually adopted the old names, just as American colonists adopted many old Indian place names in the United States. Accordingly, Albanian linguists have found more than 300 names of ancient cities like Shkodra, rivers like the Drin and mountains like Tomor which were mentioned by ancient Greek and Roman geographers or historians and which are still in use in Albania. Scholars show how the rules of historical phonetics explain any changes of spelling over the centuries from Illyrian to Albanian, as Scupi to Shkup, Scodra to Shkodra, Lissus to Lezha, Durrachium to Durrës, Drinus to Drin, Mathis to Mat. Certainly the Albanian language is derived from the Illyrian (Cabej 1985, 42-62).

10. Illyrian proper names continue in use among present-day Albanians. Many of the individual Illyrian names of persons were preserved on epitaphs and inscriptions on coins. Then the names of other people like the Illyrian rulers Agron and Teuta were mentioned by Greek or Roman historians. The Albanian scholar Mahri Domi claims to have identified 800 of these (Liria 15 October 1982; 1 November 1983).

11. The numerous marine terms for sea plants and animals in the Albanian language show that these people lived along the coast on what would correspond with Illyrian territory (AT 1983, 1:44-45).

12. Then there are other words in Albanian which Greek or Roman writers long ago explicitly identified as Illyrian in origin.
Down through the centuries many once great peoples have been either destroyed or assimilated by others so as to disappear altogether. But the Illyrian people with their distinctive dress, music, customs and especially their language have persisted in their shrinking territory along the western shore of the Balkan Peninsula. With no record or tradition even hinting at their extermination or assimilation or migration, one can only assume their unbroken historical continuity. There seems to be no question but that the present-day Albanians are the historically uninterrupted descendants of the lllyrians who were known to have inhabited that same region in early Greek and Roman times.

Or, Albanian ties whith Pelasgians:

Taken from: The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present, Edwin E. Jacques – 1995
http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Albanians%3A+an+ethnic+history+from+prehistoric+times+to+the+present++By+Edwin+E.+Jacques&hl=en&ei=UvzhTP2FL8qD4QbZ8eyJCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

...as Milan v. Sufflay (Slavic scientist was murdered by the Serbs just because of his studies for the Albanian autochthony) think: Even if there will not have historical news, as those of Ptolemy for Albanoi tribe, traces itselft and influence of Latin in Albanian language would suffice to set albanians right in the residence of Adriatic coast

... and thousands of books who have conclusions like these:

Elias:
I don't complicate anything, you seem to have a double standard when you look at albanian history compaired to others. You say peopels are cultures not races, then you say modern greeks are not ancient greek because of "albanian" assimilation? what does albanians have to do with anything about ancient greece? because you think you are palasgian with no evidence?

A:
I see that you dont understand at all... I said Illyrians, Thracians, Helens... were cultures, not races itself, but they as a whole of course that were a race, and were the same race... pelasgian race.
... and yes, ask a greek (scientist) and he will tell you what albanians have to do whith ancient helens (because, as I see, this field is not in your interest and you don'y have information).

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or

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Elias:
You're just 100% nationalistic albanian who think your countries origins are some great ancient culture with NO evidence to back it up, you just fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

A:
Wrong again. I thing you are pseudo-nationalist, even racist, because you dont want to read or to listen about albanians at all, just because you hate them (you are strong instrumentalized from the slavic propaganda).
As J.G.Hahn write, Albania has no history of sustained, the name of this country comes out occasionally, and as a rule only when the events in the asylum application is closely related to its neighbors, just rest or just put us out this link, put back in place its ancient darkness, and so happens that a whole history of domestic confined to a few fragments, which brought about some remarkable personalities, or build a genealogical tree of several small dynasties.
When such fragments are not very far from one another, the historian tries to fulfill through combinations gaps, whith inductive and logical procedures. But, as is done when such gaps are composed not by tens or by hundreds of years, but up to a thousand years? History of Albania has gaps such that the time of Strabo and Ptolemy, until the Norman invasion mentioned this place several times when the country became a battlefield of a new barbarian horde. Once the fog disappear from this place, it appears to us as a new place ...

- So, i want here to tell you something about these people, about this language, culture, race...who lived isolated for thousands of years, and whith surviving history, because you dont know nothing about them, but your pseudo-nationalist approach, dont let me to do that...

Elias:
Wheather YOU like to admit it or not, the first piece of evidence of albanians came from the middles ages, NOT before, so theories all you want because that's all it is, theory.

I could say with MORE certainty than you that, as supported by the first piece of albanian evidence recorded in the late middle ages,, that albanians could have been on of the cultures that the eastern roman empire let settle on their lands in return for chritianization. This is alot more realistic considering the albanians language has very little latin or greek in it that have been around that area for centuries.

A:
If you want to confuse the fisrt book in albanian language in 15 century, whith history of albanian people or albanian language, than you are illiterate in these questions. Although many have already deciphered ancient pelasgian inscriptions whith the Albanian language...

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...anyway, antiquity of a language is measured with the comparative model. For example, the etymology is part of this measurement (do you heard sometimes about smalles semantic units that shape meaning of other words?)... and the result is:

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From the second page in this topic, i transmit you houndreds of BOOKS! ... which came from american, german, french, english, italian even from slavic and greek scientist, who write against your way of thinking here, but you pass them silently to say something in your own, just because you wanna transmit hate here and nothing else !


P.S:
I found more than a thousand books of this type, but it is useless to transmit part of them here, since you still have a closed mind, and your pseudo-nationalism, not allow new information in your brain. Let's try from slavic scientist, trying to relax you in some way

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And finally:
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[Besir Bajrami]

Now let's focus in the topic and stop the pseudo-nationalist or racisit aproach! Open your mind and start learning something new...

Let's talk about folk or
Costumography + Cosmogonic symbols in albanian national costumes

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.214339561947154.48697.100001133356751&l=fa2d960ee9&type=1


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[Besir Bajrami]

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