Immigration Global Muslim anger at European depiction of Prophet Muhammad

[Duo]

Actually no. If we are too tolerant we will always end up being at the receiving end of such violence and retaliations. Western Europe has been way way too lenient with muslim outbursts of violence. Let's not forget that Van Ghogh was murdered in his own country by a radical muslim because of his documentary on the mistreatment of muslim women. Our tolerant attitude has allowed for muslim immigrants to do as they please in Western Europe with no regard for the host society. Why do they have this beleif that they should always be respected and they are free to walk on Western society? I am for full retaliation on this. Denmark and Norway did nothing wrong. It is freedom of speech, if middle-eastern muslims are not ok with this and they assault our right to live with gov. backing btw, then the EU and Europe should take severe measures against Syria seeing as the lives of their citizens were put to stake. How about on some embargoes to Syria for Western goods. Also not allowing any syrian citizen into the EU for the period of a year. Of course these are radical examples but sometimes something like this is needed to give sign that Europeans and Europe can't just be walked upon. If we want to draw mohamed as a turban terrorist so bloody be it... it is in our right... we don't need to asnwer to no one. Did everyone forget the sexually explicit depction of Chirac, Queen Elizabeth and of Dubbya in together in those EU posters in Austria? I saw no burning of Austrian Embassies anywhere. I'm getting sick and tirede of these kind of responses from aggressive arab and middle eastern muslim against Europeans. I see these actions as more straws being added to the Camel's back as the saying goes. Our tolerance has a limit, which is being seriously tested in these latter years...

 

[ArmandV]

I already have, you obviously disregarded it.
and again, WW2 argument getting well old.
and the thing about the reason behind them helping america being he charmed women is all unfounded speculation. there is no substantial proof that had any weighing factor at all. "strange but true."

No, I disregarded nothing. I had to go back and re-read your posts to find it.

As far as WWII goes, you feel the argument is "old" is because you just don't like hearing it. I don't discount other nations in the fight against the Nazis, but it is true that if it wasn't for the U.S. Europe would have been under Nazi rule.

No, the dalliances of Benjamin Franklin have been documented beyond "speculation."

Getting back to the main issue (and away from this nitpicking B.S.), the following was stated on Fox News yesterday with pretty much coinsides with what many of have been pointing out:

Fox News Channel "Special Report" anchorman Brit Hume said Sunday that violent demonstrations by radical Muslims protesting five-month-old cartoons depicting the Islamic prophet Mohammed betray a "howling double standard."

"This is really a disgrace," Hume told the panel on "Fox News Sunday." "And it is a disgrace because of the obvious, howling double standard involved here."

"What is striking about this is what offends these Muslims who are protesting and these imams," Hume complained. "Does the slaughter of innocent people in many parts of the world in the name of Allah offend them? Is that a sacrilege worthy of protest?

"No, not in the least," he said.

Hume noted that there has also been no outrage on the Arab street over "the kinds of slurs against Christians and against the Jewish faith that are regularly spread abroad in the Arab world by the mass media and by many of these imams themselves."

Prior to Hume's comments, "Fox News Sunday" aired a shot of the cartoon deemed most offensive by the protesters - a drawing of Mohammed wearing a turban shaped like a bomb.

 

[ArmandV]

Now that's what I'm talking about! thank you US, enough of a vindication for me atleast.

Then this should make you happy (from yesterday):

CRAWFORD, Texas -- The White House said Saturday it will hold Syria responsible for the burning of Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus, saying such violence does not occur there without the host government's approval.

In a statement released at President Bush's ranch in central Texas, the United States strongly condemned the fires at the two embassies in the Syrian capital, which also damaged the Chilean and Swedish embassies. The condemnation is the latest chapter in declining U.S.-Syrian relations.

"We will hold Syria responsible for such violent demonstrations since they do not take place in that country without government knowledge and support," said presidential press secretary Scott McClellan.

Thousands of Syrians enraged by caricatures of Islam's revered prophet torched the embassies on Saturday - the most violent in days of furious protests by Muslims in Asia, Europe and the Middle East.

The State Department has told the Syrian ambassador that Syria must act decisively to protect all foreign embassies and citizens in Damascus from attack.

 

[No-name]

Two papers in Jordan allegedly reprinted the cartoons with editorials condemning them. The editorials didn't matter however, since the editors were not only fired, but arrested. Both papers were protested peaceably, but some were asking if they needed to boycott Jordan now, too.

It highlighted to me the fact that in much of the Arab world there is not a free press and people are more prone to associate the news with the government where it originated: Danish papers must reflect official Danish policy. It is also likely that Arab officials enjoy protests against western powers because it takes focus off of the domestic policies and problems those countries face.

 

[ArmandV]

Two papers in Jordan allegedly reprinted the cartoons with editorials condemning them. The editorials didn't matter however, since the editors were not only fired, but arrested. Both papers were protested peaceably, but some were asking if they needed to boycott Jordan now, too.
It highlighted to me the fact that in much of the Arab world there is not a free press and people are more prone to associate the news with the government where it originated: Danish papers must reflect official Danish policy. It is also likely that Arab officials enjoy protests against western powers because it takes focus off of the domestic policies and problems those countries face.

I wouldn't be surprised that the editors' heads will be rolling (literally) soon.

 

[TwistedMac]

I saw pictures of Islamists burning a Swiss flag on the news today. Apparently they had mistaken it for a Danish flag.

I'm not even going to comment on it.

 

[Duo]

I saw that as well

 

[No-name]

Kinda reminds you of the Bert-Bin Laden posters.

 

[Da Monstar]

Most muslims all over the world React violently and frustrated over 12 bad supposed-to-be funny pics of their prophet Muhammed.

Yet, have you ever seen a Christian person getting mad at all be seeing stuff like this http://www.sjove-video.dk/films/film309.asp ?


Im just wondering...

 

[Clawn]

Da Monstar, I agree with you, many of the Muslim protestors that I have seen on television or heard on the radio have argued that Christians would be just as outraged if the same had been done to Jesus as had been done to Muhammad. The only problem with that arguement is that it has been done and Christians have put up with it.
I also think that they may be acting this way because they may not have sufficient information about how Christians act when insulted, maybe the common man from one of those countries has no vast knowledge of the outside world and therefore thinks his actions are justified. Then again, maybe that's just being too nice...

 

[Maciamo]

The reaction to these cartoons has been uncivilised and retaliatory. Whatever reaction we have has to be civilised, not retaliatory - so we shouldn't deport Muslims or boycott their businesses or condone any violence whatsoever. We should be continuing to uphold the example of how civilised people behave.

Anyway, there is no much from the Muslim world to boycott, apart from oil, which would only hurt Western economies. They know it, and that's why they can afford to act abusively and boycott Western products, as the trade balance is largely in the favour of Western countries.

Regarding deporation, I think it is reasonable to deport at least those who demonstrated violently inside Europe (e.g. stone thrown at embassies) or carried hate messages such as "Behead those who insult Islam" or "Europe will pay, demolition is on its way" or else "Be prepared for the real holocaust" (see pictures from London protests). It would of course be unfeasible to deport all Muslims (even those without a European nationality) from a whole country. It would be irresponsible to let such people go back freely to European society, and probably plan some terrorist attacks or other violent actions. They should either be arrested (for many years) or expelled from Europe and blacklisted.

 

[Maciamo]

Actually no. If we are too tolerant we will always end up being at the receiving end of such violence and retaliations. Western Europe has been way way too lenient with muslim outbursts of violence. Let's not forget that Van Ghogh was murdered in his own country by a radical muslim because of his documentary on the mistreatment of muslim women. Our tolerant attitude has allowed for muslim immigrants to do as they please in Western Europe with no regard for the host society. Why do they have this beleif that they should always be respected and they are free to walk on Western society? I am for full retaliation on this. Denmark and Norway did nothing wrong.

My exact thoughts.

 

[No-name]

You can be perfectly tolerant of ideas while still restricting conduct. We need not tolerate crimes or violence.

 

[Maciamo]

Two papers in Jordan allegedly reprinted the cartoons with editorials condemning them. The editorials didn't matter however, since the editors were not only fired, but arrested. Both papers were protested peaceably, but some were asking if they needed to boycott Jordan now, too.

I praise Jordan for trying to reason other Muslims. As I said, Jordan and Lebanon are probably the two Middle-Eastern countries closest to Western policies (considering that Turkey is part of Europe). I also haven't heard anything from Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia this time... (or did I miss that ?)

It highlighted to me the fact that in much of the Arab world there is not a free press and people are more prone to associate the news with the government where it originated: Danish papers must reflect official Danish policy.

Good point. I indeed think that many Arabs are confused about how Western society works. They haven't experienced democracy or freedom of press, so it is highly probable that many of them associate the content of the Western press with their respective country's "offcial view".

It is also likely that Arab officials enjoy protests against western powers because it takes focus off of the domestic policies and problems those countries face.

In the debate on the issue on BBC World yesterday, an Egyptian journalist (fighting for more freedom of press in the Arab world) explained that all too often the Arab press criticised the West and Israel to take focus off of the domestic policies. She also said that the Arab press focused on the political issues in Palestine, but never cared to explain the humanitarian problems there like the Western press did. In other words, the message is always the same and oversimplified.

 

[No-name]

On the other hand the Jordanian government did arrest the editors and charged them with defamation of Islam- which carries a prison term.

I can't see American Christians getting out of our Lexus SUV's and burning anything down. Remember the Baptist boycott of Disney? Neither does anyone else. I didn't stick. "The Last Temptation of Christ" protest was probably the best publicity that movie could find. NBC cancelled "The Book of Daniel" for ratings that probably had more to do with quality and competition than with the organized Christian Boycott. Asside from the nut-jobs bombing and burning abortion clinics, I don't see Americans getting all that passionate about depicting Christ either in literature or cartoons. There are too many modes of expression in our country to excuse a degeneration into violence and/or property destruction. We have a long history of tolerating a broad range of opinions and we can always get shrill and whiney if sufficiently riled up.

 

[bossel]

To show those Muslims that their actions are wrong, the best way is to use their own weapons. They harass or attack Westerners who haven't done anything to them, so let's expell their fellow citizens from Western countries in retaliation.

Which wouldn't show them that their actions are wrong but would only support their view of an anti-Muslim West. What's more, that would actually support their propaganda efforts to picture the West as such among moderate Muslims.

Anyway, collective punishment shouldn't be part of a civilised world.

30%, actually.

Sorry for the misinformation, was writing from memory. But it's not that low a number, it's around 40% (CIA World Fact Book about Lebanon: "Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri)").

I believe that only Poland and Spain wanted this. All other countries opposed it.

That was not a discussion between countries, but between political movements (supported esp. by the EPP, the biggest group in the EP). I think, only the strong resistance of France finally decided for a weak version, which re-translated from the German version is something like "the cultural, religious & humanist heritage of Europe" ("kulturelle, religiöse und humanistische Erbe Europas")

BTW, even if you talk about countries (IE governments), AFAIK, there were more than Poland & Spain in support: Ireland, Malta, Portugal, Slovakia, Chech Republic. I think, France was the only one which strongly resisted.

However, my conception of a religious state is one where a specific religion is priviliedged, state-funded and laws and politics are heavily influenced by this religion.

Our laws & politics are heavily influenced by Christian heritage & the Christian Churches are still privileged in a number of countries, eg. Germany. I wouldn't call that religious states, but the Christian influence on European culture is clear.

Really ? If I decided to go myself burn Mosques and/or Muslim embassies, it would. But if my not condemning it makes me on the same level, then the whole Muslim world (except a tiny minority) is also on the same level as those who burned the embassies, as they didn't condemn it.

Did you misread that on purpose? I said: "puts you on the same level as those who condone the burning of Western embassies". I didn't speak of those who actively burn the places nor of those who don't take the streets against it, but only of those who condone it.

the ultimate solution to this clash of civilisation (which already exist, and vividly), will be a devastating war.

Nope. Muslim radicals, who are willing to use force & who actually want this clash of cultures, still make up only a small minority of Muslim societies.

most Muslim states haven't.

Well, the Arab states have already got quite some bloody noses from Israel. I doubt that they feel strong enough to take up the whole West.

show the world that they don't need the West to interfere in their affairs, and won't be "insulted" by infidels.

Which is quite understandable in a way.

Look at the Middle East. Who has the real power ? Who controls the government and media in most countries ? In fact, Lebanon and Jordan may well be among the most moderate countries in this regard. Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Yemen are probably among the most radical.

Syria can hardly be called radical Islamic, the ruling Ba'ath Party is socialist at its core (strongly under the influence of Alavites). Muslim fundamentalists are in power in Iran (but they don't really have good relations with the Arab part of Islam), Saudi Arabia (yet a US ally) & Yemen (which I haven't heard of very much recently).

 

[TwistedMac]

see pictures from London protests

Blair said he spoke Monday morning with Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen of Denmark, where the cartoons were first published, to offer Britain's full support and say that they stand together in solidarity.

It wasn't a matter of nations to begin with, it was just a free publisher, but now it has come to this and the first to really state they stand behind Denmark are... Britain?

Yes, they are allies at the moment in Iraq, so it's only natural that Britain steps in early, but come on... The Nordic countries are supposed to be brothers. it's how we've always perceived ourselves... much teasing but when it all comes down to it we stand up for eachother.

I'm really starting to get pissed of at my goverment at the moment. They need to come out with a statement like this one.

 

[nurizeko]

It wasn't a matter of nations to begin with, it was just a free publisher, but now it has come to this and the first to really state they stand behind Denmark are... Britain?
Yes, they are allies at the moment in Iraq, so it's only natural that Britain steps in early, but come on... The Nordic countries are supposed to be brothers. it's how we've always perceived ourselves... much teasing but when it all comes down to it we stand up for eachother.
I'm really starting to get pissed of at my goverment at the moment. They need to come out with a statement like this one.

The nordic countries have somewhat a germanic history so, if we want to be silly about it, britain is as good as any nation to stand by danemark, since both our ancestors, at least culturally, were germanic tribal peoples.

The other nordic countries are probably still asking themselves why the hell they've suddenly become the objects of international hate from countries far away and un-important to them, in both directions.

A for this becomming an international issue, that was started when some islamic states withdrew ambassadors and the such, or but bycotts on danish trade and stuff.
The west is simply responding to these diplomatic wrongdoings through diplomatic channels.

And i still think europe should be doing something else apart from condeming, all we ever do is condem, I.E. our leaders wag a finger at the wrongdoer and then it is let go.

Its good America is getting involved (though more to do with the fact its never liked syria and it gives THEM and excuse, but, help is help) the islamic world has to learn that if it cant respect the sovreingty and independence of the european peoples and nations to live as they wish, and respecting our culture of freedom of speech, then it is a threat and if it pushes us too far it will get punished.

Maybe ignorance is an excuse for the common people, but those in power know a little better western values and way of life, they have an obligation to protect the embassys of nations they have diplomatic relations with, if they cant, then they obviously cannot control their country, and therefor should be considored a "rogue state" as its so fondly used by the bush administration.

I dont agree with deporting muslims, even some, just the hate-preaching imams and those with evidence of terrorist intentions on our countries.

And yes, i wish the majority would speak up and take back islam from the scum that have been corrupting it for too long, only then will things be made a bit more even on the mutual respect front.

 

[Duo]

Those pictures in London are simply unbeliavable. Those signs being put up in the middle of Europe like that are simply unreal. What incredible audacity. "Europe is the Cancer" "Europe you will pay".
There is a cancer in Europe alright...
How it is that foreigners, coming to a new homeland and threating it, came to be is beyond my understanding.
The insane magnitude of hypocracy that these people demonstrate goes beyond the feeling of outrage. This is one more wake up call for European Governments. Something needs to be done quickly, swiftly, and effectively to address this issue. We can not allow internal enemies to profit from our lifestyle and prosperity. This outside "cells" in our society must either be made to abide by our genetic structure of society or surgically removed to put it in kind words.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I agree that anyone involved in violent protests - including those holding up threatening banners - should be deported. I think that's an entirely civilised response.