Haplogroup G from the Levant (early farmer), R1b & J (herders) from East Anatolia

[Maciamo]

The German site also had either haplo F or H - undetermined.

The F could also be IJ, which wasn't tested.

And the German site had an entirely different branch of G than the Iceman had.

This is to be expected considering the large diversity of G subclades found in the Levant.

In believe an earlier study of Neolithic farming skeletions found haplogroup N.

I am not aware of anything of the sort, except for mtDNA N. You may want to check my summary of all the ancient Y-DNA and mtDNA studies to date (I still have to add the sources for the Bronze and Iron ages).

The authors of the Spanish article published today refer to "the probable high level of heterogeneity of the Neolithic dissemination in Europe," and indicate that their study was inadequate to evaluate the arrival of the men in the Neolithic transition. (Lacan et al., Ancient DNA Suggests the Leading Role Played by Men in the Neolithic Dissemination, PNAS Early Edition)

Their opinion on the subject is not more informed than ours. In fact they may be more amateurish since they stated that the mtDNA lineages found were typically pre-Neolithic, when only 2 out 7 samples were (U5 and H3).

In addition, agriculture was already widespread over all southwest Asia, not just the Levant by at least several millennia before the non-Spanish men mentioned above which greater increases the possibilities for their origins. Because the G subgroups involved here may have been in existence for multiple millennia before before the movement to Europe, leaving many opportunities for intermixing with other haplogroups.

This is all the more surprising to find such homogeneity of G2a in Late Neolithic sites as well.

You also speculate on the origins of haplo G in Egypt. This is one country where G origins have been a black page due to the scarcity of detailed haplotype samples. There are only two Egyptian samples in the Haplogroup G Project. I found one in the YHRD database, and El-Sibai, 2009, Annals of H Genetics) had 8 G haplotypes. These samples seem to have bits and pieces of known G subgroups. There is only one DYS390=21, typically a sign of G2a3a so common in Greece and Turkey. There is no DYS392=10 found in all G2a1a men and ultra common in the mid-Caucasus Mtns. There are no men with DYS392=12, found in all G1 persons, most common in Iran & its western borders. There were no men with a double value for DYS19, found in half of G2a4 men (such as the Iceman) There were no men with the very low DYS385a values seen in European G2a3b1a1a men. There is one man with the DYS388=13 value seen in the large G2a3b1a2 men of Europe. The rest are miscellaneous patterns that could represent paleolithic arrivals, but one cannot ignore the isolated G2a3a & G2a3b1a2 samples which suggest a subsequent arrival. So one can argue anything one wants with regard to the Egyptian samples.

That's very interesting. Judging from this, these G2a3a and G2a3b1a2 could very well be of Greco-Roman or Anatolian (Hittite ?) origin, since Egypt was conquered and occupied by all of these.

With regard to your comments that haplo G is more common in the northeast of Spain, this seems in conflict with your haplogroup G map which shows a relatively low percentage there. In the Adams Iberian study, they found an average amount of G in that area. In the samples in the YHRD database for Barcelona, by my rough estimate, these also have an average amount of G, but the samples from the Pyrenees have a below average amount.

Sorry, typo error. I meant Northwest (Cantabria, Asturias, Northwest Castille, North Portugal).

 

[Goga]

Goga,

Please refer to another of my postings today which referred in detail to the absence of certain G Caucasus marker values in the available Egyptian G samples. For example, there is a high percentage of G2a1a (all with DYS392=10) in the Ossetias and Georgia, but none in the Egyptian samples. The G2a3b1a1 marker values common in the western Caucasus are also absent in the available Egyptian samples. Half of the Turkish and Greek G samples have DYS390=21 which is typical of G2a3a, but only one such sample so far from Egypt.

Ray Banks, Administrator, Haplogroup G Project

Ok, you made your point. Hg. G is an ancient and very old haplogroup, so it seems that G could arrive in Egypt from West Asia in the prehistoric times!

Thank you for the correction!

 

[Ivan]

Ivan,

In reply to your comments about haplo G and mountainous areas

There seems a fascination unique to this site linking haplogroup G to high mountain areas.

I see the same fascination in your theory linking G in Europe almost exclusively with Jewish communities.

I never said they were exclusively anything.
All I said is that there is a strange correlation between mountainous regions and today's substantial G numbers.

You are right, they probably went there to find shelter from invaders in the first place, and that is probably why there is lack of G in today's genetics, as they were probably not involved so much in spreading genes (they were absent in a way). Scattered cases of G in Europe, I believe were from merchants who were Jewish (probably Khazarian), and christian Armenian Jugaites who were known merchants all over the world. There was 30% of Jugaites among all merchants in some 200 years ago in Venice and there is a street with their name there. Armenian Hamsheni (lots of G1a),who live in mountains like Trabzon are probably closely connected to Assyrian Christians from Nakhchivan or perhaps the same one genetically. Also Jugaites are from this area.

It is 15% among the nomadic Bakhtiari who cross the high mountains traditionally, but it is found in about the same percentage among the Mazandarani farmers and fishermen on the lowland south end of the Caspian sea.

What you forgot to say is of no less importance. Mazandarani province is the highest region with 2nd highest peak in allready mountainous Iran. It is mostly consisted of high mountains, and a Caspian sea plane. The province would not include so much mountains if in history nobody lived there. If they are fisherman now, there is nothing strange there, and it is quite normal to use all the resources as possible. It does not change a fact it is the highest part of Iran. I believe much of them came down gradually to become fisherman etc. Also here they could just follow the traditions of the rest 85%. In Serbia and in my family, most of people were shepherds, but in last 300 years most of them settled in plains, or in my case on border of Austro-Hungarian empire.

But the best known postal stamp of Mazandarani is also suggestive. A typical Mazandarani man is holding an unusual fishing rod.

As you can see the highest mountains are where Bahktiari and Mazandarani live.
Name Elevation Latitude/Longitude
1 Kūh-e Kalū Farangī, Lorestān 5,642 m 33.576 / 48.822
2 Kūh-e Damāvand, Māzandarān 5,628 m 35.955 / 52.109
3 Kūh-e Zelzeleh Khīz, Razavi Khorasan 5,150 m 35.683 / 58.484
4 Kūh-e Alborz, Qazvīn 5,025 m 36.315 / 50.753
5 ‘Alam Kūh, Māzandarān 4,822 m 36.376 / 50.962
6 Kūh-e Khersān, Māzandarān 4,659 m 36.365 / 50.952
7 Kūh-e Sabalān, Ardabīl 4,597 m 38.256 / 47.817
8 Kūh-e Haft Khvān, Māzandarān 4,537 m 36.371 / 50.939
9 Kūh-e Hezār, Kermān 4,465 m 29.512 / 57.272
10 Kūh-e Langarī, Māzandarān 4,457 m 36.379 / 50.928

We have one G2a4 man among the Bakthiari of Iran.

I thought I read most of G among Bakhtiari were G1, but not sure about that, nevertheless there is also G2a4 as you said. This is quite indicative of the way of life Otzi showed, as they are shepherds crossing mountains twice a year.
I really liked watching the movie "Grass" done by authors of King Kong in 1925. It is quite interesting as they seek better pastures in valleys.

So following your logic one can call them valley men since they graze their stock there on better pasture lands, just like Circassians did in the steppe, and where Georgians collectively became men from valleys in your interpretation.

In Switzerland I found only about 4% G in the general Swiss samples in YHRD

You noticed lack of Jews among G in Mountain Jews society in the last Yunusbayev, Caucasus revisited study, compared to that of Nasidze. From 15% to 0%. Also G1 in Armenians rose from 1% up to 10%, and half of Georgia became G.


I must say I value your work and from time to time read statistical data and peoples thoughts about G, but, I am not that versed in modern statistical and scientific tools like you are. I am just an old fashioned guy. I consider your modern tools and knowledge far more advanced.

I read carefully everything on the web considering G, and just gave my humble opinion regarding an overall G character, using my perhaps outdated and somewhat amateurish tools, but with an artistic twist, maybe just like a police sketch artist would do. I expect from you and other more intelligent and qualified people to use this sketch or disregard it.

That is why I also, chose to capture the essence of G character much more in those communities that thrived in some place, and where are still in high numbers in comparison to other groups.

Thank you for the time and effort you put in this altruistic endeavor called G haplogroup project.

 

[sparkey]

The question of diversity is a valid one. Most of the areas immediately abutting the Caucasus are not very diverse, with one type of G dominating the area. Armenia so far seems the most diverse containing a high percentage of the G subgroups.

I had assumed that the apparent lower diversity was due to lower samples sizes outside of Armenia (basically, the diversity is there, we just haven't taken samples to prove it yet). Am I wrong? If I am wrong, this is an intriguing pattern.

If one is looking for the ultimate area of origin, then instead Iran would attract attention because it is about the only country where there is a good mixture of both G1 and G2. But G1 is uncommon among European G persons. If one is looking at diversity to explain origins, Iran does not seem to have been a major source of European G because of the lack of G1 in Europe.

I agree. In the context of Europe, which is the focus here, we should look for a location where diversity is good enough to match the Neolithic expansion on Europe (doesn't need to be at the root of the G tree). I'm less concerned with frequency distributions of subclades, since those can expand and contract in both the region of origin and the region of expansion, so we shouldn't really expect them to match in both places.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

so what is the general consensus on when G entered Europe. This this site references Ancient remains that date to 7000 ybp in Spain, so it would make sense to correlate G to early neolithic farmers, rather than bronze age invaders or late neolithic herders ,who entered West Europe at least 1000 years after these remains were dated to.

 

[sparkey]

so what is the general consensus on when G entered Europe. This this site references Ancient remains that date to 7000 ybp in Spain, so it would make sense to correlate G to early neolithic farmers, rather than bronze age invaders or late neolithic herders ,who entered West Europe at least 1000 years after these remains were dated to.

The general consensus is that G entered Europe during the early Neolithic, yes. It's pretty incontestable, given the ancient samples. Of course, that doesn't mean that all European G descends from those who entered Europe during the Neolithic. Certain subclades could be later arrivals.

 

[zanipolo]

The general consensus is that G entered Europe during the early Neolithic, yes. It's pretty incontestable, given the ancient samples. Of course, that doesn't mean that all European G descends from those who entered Europe during the Neolithic. Certain subclades could be later arrivals.

Agreed , but I also believe they brought every other haplogroup which was around "neighborly" with them. I, T, L, Q and anyone else

 

[sparkey]

Agreed , but I also believe they brought every other haplogroup which was around "neighborly" with them. I, T, L, Q and anyone else

Other than T, those are odd choices to posit as being "neighborly" with G. J2 seems like a stronger correlation than those.

 

[zanipolo]

Other than T, those are odd choices to posit as being "neighborly" with G. J2 seems like a stronger correlation than those.

There is L- (L595) solely in europe and no where else, of which the alpine areas have between 3 and 9% depending on which valleys, there is over 5%of L in Estonia, once thought to be T but its L2. The T is in Pskov instead ( 4.4%)
There are some ancient Q and N in the alps as well, but they do not exceed 3%

I agree with your J2

Basically G2a dominated early mainland european migration, but it took many other haplogroups with them