GEDMatch HarappaWorld Gedmatch, post and compare your admixtures to ancient and contemporary.

@Azzurro,
All very true.

@New Englander,
Never said they aren't genetically Italian. The man I married is 100% genetically Italian and very proud of it, and identifies as Italian*, and that's great, but, with all due respect, he shouldn't be on anyone's go to list for information about Italian history, language, culture etc. Being a very intelligent man he wouldn't pretend to a knowledge he doesn't have.

I actually find it endearing that all these half and quarter Italians genetically, including most of my younger relatives in America, identify with Italy. I have absolutely no problem with that. My only objection is when they assume that the few half understood or misunderstood things they've picked up from grandparents and great-grandparents makes them an authority on Italy.

Ed. As well, of course, as American.
 
Jews aren't originally from Italy, but again what % of today Italy's population originally lived in Italy even before the 15th century? probably not much if we consider many Southerners weren't being able to speak any form of Italic simply because those people were Greek/Byzantine origin and never heard such thing as "Italian identity".

Jews might be more native to Italy at least Italian Jews than many Northerners of recent Germanic origin as well as Sicilians of Norman descent or we should note that people from any regions of Europe did migrate to Italy since the Middle Ages.

Modern Italy is built based on a cultural and linguistically form of agreement other than military domination and forced assimilation.

Pax Augusta said:
Calabrese have never spoken Arabic.
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Never claimed them as Arabic speakers, i was referring to the Arabic/Berber/Syriac influence in the Siculo-Calabrese language. They never spoke Italian either. Calabria has always been culturally connected to Byzantium and Greece since it's called Magna Gracia and most of it's citizens were Greeks who spoke Greek and still today the minority who survived forced cultural assimilation speak Griko dialect.
 
I thought the general population structure of Italy has been unchanged for the most part, since the Greek colonization period. Just because they did not speak Italic, does not mean they have not been in Italy since the time of Homer. As far as later mixture goes, yes it did happen, but on the overall it was not very significant to change the population in any way. Maybe in Western Sicily to some extant.
 
New Englander said:
I thought the general population structure of Italy has been unchanged for the most part, since the Greek colonization period. Just because they did not speak Italic, does not mean they have not been in Italy since the time of Homer. As far as later mixture goes, yes it did happen, but on the overall it was not very significant to change the population in any way. Maybe in Western Sicily to some extant.
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Even back then, the Greek settlers most likely were genetically similar to the locals, so the drift was minor.

* Greek colonisation period was a dozen centuries after Homer's time :)

Sent from my Robin
 
Seanp said:
Jews aren't originally from Italy, but again what % of today Italy's population originally lived in Italy even before the 15th century? probably not much if we consider many Southerners weren't being able to speak any form of Italic simply because those people were Greek/Byzantine origin and never heard such thing as "Italian identity".

Jews might be more native to Italy at least Italian Jews than many Northerners of recent Germanic origin as well as Sicilians of Norman descent or we should note that people from any regions of Europe did migrate to Italy since the Middle Ages.

Modern Italy is built based on a cultural and linguistically form of agreement other than military domination and forced assimilation.



Never claimed them as Arabic speakers, i was referring to the Arabic/Berber/Syriac influence in the Siculo-Calabrese language. They never spoke Italian either. Calabria has always been culturally connected to Byzantium and Greece since it's called Magna Gracia and most of it's citizens were Greeks who spoke Greek and still today the minority who survived forced cultural assimilation speak Griko dialect.
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By "Germanic ancestry" I assume you mean the Langobards. If the Langobards were "Germanic", and given that "Germans" today are very high in Ydna I1 and R1b U-106, and R1a, and there are such small percents of those lineages in Italy today, the "Germanic" element is not very large. If you knew any history you would know that the Normans were a few dozen soldiers, hardly enough to change the autosomal composition of Sicilians. You might also want to look at the percents of "Berber" yDna in southern Italy and Sicily. If I thought you were really interested in learning about genetics and Italian genetics in particular, I would post links to papers and to these uniparental marker maps. Since I don't believe that for a second, I'm not going to waste my time.

Bottom line, though, none of this matters. There are no "pure" populations. Anyone who has been paying attention to the genetics papers published in the last five years or so would know that.

You purport to be Hungarian. I don't necessarily believe it, but let's assume it's true for the moment. Your ancestors are WHG hunter-gatherers, a lot of Near Eastern farmers, some far eastern European EHG, and some Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic. Later on you have the movement of Magyars, with their Eastern Eurasian ancestry. You even speak a non-Indo-European language. Later on still, you have Germans moving in and who knows who else. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but please don't pretend you, if you are Hungarian, come from some pure "Hungarian" race. It's nonsense.

More importantly, I won't tolerate you trying to bring your anthrofora flame wars here. Please read the rules for this site. You are constantly violating them, with predictable results.
 
Angela said:
By "Germanic ancestry" I assume you mean the Langobards. If the Langobards were "Germanic",
and given that "Germans" today are very high in Ydna I1 and R1b U-106, and R1a, and there are such small percents of those lineages in Italy today, the "Germanic" element is not very large.
Click to expand...

We can't associate Germanic haplogroups to modern Germans. Northern Italy was colonized by tonns of Germanic tribes who might be genetically the same as North Italians now than German speakers today.

Angela said:
. If you knew any history you would know that the Normans were a few dozen soldiers
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Yet many Sicilians or Italian Americans today claim Norman heritage. (It's a solely mistake all these people concern on anthroforums)

for contrary I don't see what's the problem for someone to mention the Berber/Carhagian ancestry in South Italy but not the Norman or Lombard. - Maybe those groups can't be viewed as European to fit someone's agenda. **Cough cough**

The same exact phenomenon exist among Antro Iberians who tries to distract themselves from Moors/North Africans but can't delete the 800 years of Moorish rule in Iberia.


Angela said:
Bottom line, though, none of this matters. There are no "pure" populations. Anyone who has been paying attention to the genetics papers published in the last five years or so would know that.
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So what prevents people like you calling Italians Jews non Italians when there's no strict definition on what Italian means to be. If a Jew identifty as Italian he has the right to be called as such, the same
way someone of Lombard, Germanic, Italic ancestry is not less Italian than someone of Greek ancestry from the South.

Angela said:
You purport to be Hungarian. I don't necessarily believe it, but let's assume it's true for the moment. Your ancestors are WHG hunter-gatherers, a lot of Near Eastern farmers, some far eastern European EHG, and some Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic. Later on you have the movement of Magyars, with their Eastern Eurasian ancestry. You even speak a non-Indo-European language. Later on still, you have Germans moving in and who knows who else. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but please don't pretend you, if you are Hungarian, come from some pure "Hungarian" race. It's nonsense.
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That's my identity and i don't identify myself based on DNA results. I have no problem to embrace "European" and "Asian" heritage of my ancestry as that's what makes someone Hungarian.
But to us these are just meaningless labels as we know Europe didn't even exist before the entry of Judo-Christianity which made this pseudo term "European"
I can't degrade myself to identify with modern French or Germans who sooner or later become a land of Turks and Muslims and redefine the definition of European under the blue flag.
 
New Englander said:
I thought that the Odyssey was almost like a representation of the first Trojan and Greek migration to Sicily, and Italy? 8th century BC is the first colonization period, "It is generally accepted that the poems were composed at some point around the late eighth or early seventh century B.C".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
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Your are right, I messed it up. You said "Homer", I got it as "Troyan War" (for some reason... ).

Sent from my Robin
 
According to the Ethnographic map of Karl von Czoernig-Czernhausen, issued by the k.u.k. Administration of Statistics in 1855, the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia had a population of 5,024,117 people, consisting of the following ethnic groups: 4,625,746 Italians; 351,805 Friulians; 12,084 Germans (Cimbrians in Venetia); 26,676 Slovenians and 7,806 Jews.
 
Thats a lot of German and Slovenian. How can that not possible have any kind of impact genetically?
 
Excuse me, have you done the percentages?

There's also the fact that some of these people have been very endogamous, living in isolated villages. That's why they still form separate groups, and that's why some of them get studied for inherited diseases.

See the following discussion here at Eupedia for an example. They are very drifted populations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ighlight=Genetic+isolates+North-eastern+Italy
 
Well, do they eliminate the out lairs when they form these percentages, or do they average into the regional population structure, like in GEDmatch spreadsheets?

And if they were isolated, and did not mix with Italians, 1) Are they still distinguishable today? 2) How much inbreeding took place, and how far do they drift from the rest of point of origin population? Unless, they took in Italians, and not vise versa...
 
With modern industrialization, and western culture, I find it odd that this 8% of the population has not at least in the last 100 years, blended into the population. The only exception may be the Jews.

The only thing wrong with this, is that the world wars may have changed the population, along with immigration to the Americas.
 
I think perhaps you should redo your math. Your post was about the Germans and Slovenes. Even combined they represent less than 1% of the population. The Friulani, although their language is recognized, are still Italians.

If you are interested in these genetic isolates perhaps you should read the paper.
 
I just used the number of "Italians", that was about 92%.
 
New Englander said:
I thought that the Odyssey was almost like a representation of the first Trojan and Greek migration to Sicily, and Italy? 8th century BC is the first colonization period, "It is generally accepted that the poems were composed at some point around the late eighth or early seventh century B.C".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
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It's more complicated. Many ancient people claimed to be of Trojan origin because it was prestigious to take those roots. Also ancient peoples who are definitely unrelated, even the Franks and medieval noble families in the Middle Ages, like the Swiss Habsburg, who was one of the most influential royal houses of Europe and occupied "The throne of the Holy Roman Empire" continuously between 1438 and 1740. Ironically, the Habsburg are R1b U152 L2+, so Italo-Celtic.

"In one case, the Habsburgs went back to the Trojans via a number of Roman families, Julius Caesar, and Aeneas, while in another their line of descent from the Trojans passed through the Carolingians, Merovingians, and Franks – it was even claimed that they were descendants, via Osiris and Jupiter, of Ham and Noah. Another claim made was that they shared common blood with the Babenbergs."


http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter/habsburgs-origins-swiss-noble-family?language=en


New Englander said:
Thats a lot of German and Slovenian. How can that not possible have any kind of impact genetically?
Click to expand...


In the stats posted by Sile German and Slovenians are around 0,5 % of the population, how can they have any kind of impact genetically?

According to Sile the Germans are the Cimbrians, and they settled Italy in the Middle Ages. Instead Slovenians live in the Slavia Friulana, they settled in this area in the Middle Ages, since the beginning of the 8th century AD.


New Englander said:
Well, do they eliminate the out lairs when they form these percentages, or do they average into the regional population structure, like in GEDmatch spreadsheets?
Click to expand...

GEDmatch uses mostly for North Italians a HGDP sample from Bergamo, there are no Germanic or Slovenian minorities overthere.


New Englander said:
With modern industrialization, and western culture, I find it odd that this 8% of the population has not at least in the last 100 years, blended into the population. The only exception may be the Jews.
Click to expand...

Most of Jews were concentrated in Venice and Trieste.

New Englander said:
I just used the number of "Italians", that was about 92%.
Click to expand...

The rest, 8%, are Furlans/Friulani, who are people from Friuli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli. They are Italian but being that they spoke a Rhaeto-Romance language and they have a strong identity were counted separately.
 
Pax Augusta said:
It's more complicated. Many ancient people claimed to be of Trojan origin because it was prestigious to take those roots. Also ancient peoples who are definitely unrelated, even the Franks and medieval noble families in the Middle Ages, like the Swiss Habsburg, who was one of the most influential royal houses of Europe and occupied "The throne of the Holy Roman Empire" continuously between 1438 and 1740. Ironically, the Habsburg are R1b U152 L2+, so Italo-Celtic.

"In one case, the Habsburgs went back to the Trojans via a number of Roman families, Julius Caesar, and Aeneas, while in another their line of descent from the Trojans passed through the Carolingians, Merovingians, and Franks – it was even claimed that they were descendants, via Osiris and Jupiter, of Ham and Noah. Another claim made was that they shared common blood with the Babenbergs."


http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter/habsburgs-origins-swiss-noble-family?language=en





In the stats posted by Sile German and Slovenians are around 0,5 % of the population, how can they have any kind of impact genetically?

According to Sile the Germans are the Cimbrians, and they settled Italy in the Middle Ages. Instead Slovenians live in the Slavia Friulana, they settled in this area in the Middle Ages, since the beginning of the 8th century AD.




GEDmatch uses mostly for North Italians a HGDP sample from Bergamo, there are no Germanic or Slovenian minorities overthere.




Most of Jews were concentrated in Venice and Trieste.



The rest, 8%, are Furlans/Friulani, who are people from Friuli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli. They are Italian but being that they spoke a Rhaeto-Romance language and they have a strong identity were counted separately.
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What is the Bergamo admixture representing.?...................is it pure NE-Lombard people only.....

or

a mix of Lombards, Veneti, Tyrolese and eastern Swiss ( grisons ) ?

there should also be as well Ladin ( romansch tyrolese and friuliani )


Friuli and Veneti belong to the ancient indigenous Euganei people ..........only language divides them not genetics


...........................

it is not according to me that cimbrians are germans ..........it is part of the article ...........so you can refrain from giving me negative ratings just because I place articles on the forums
 
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