Illyria

Ancient writers about greekness of Epirus
“Zeus Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will, whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground”.




Homer, Iliad 16:127 (Achilles prayer)


XI.


“War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles…


XIII.


“…Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him “what kind of a place he had found Rome to be,” Cineas replied, that “he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece.”


Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium


“Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros“


“Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus.”


Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer


“Peleus is the forefather of the kings of Epiros”


Pausanias, II (Corinth).


Peleus being the son of King Aeacus (the dynasty’s name) and the father of Achilles.


but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome


Pausanias, 1.11


“So Pyrros was the first to cross over against Rome from mainland Greece, and even so he went over only because he was called in by Tarentum”


Pausanias, 1.12


[6] Being apprized of Alcmaeon’s untimely end and courted by Zeus, Callirrhoe requested that the sons she had by Alcmaeon might be full grown in order to avenge their father’s murder. And being suddenly full-grown, the sons went forth to right their father’s wrong. Now Pronous and Agenor, the sons of Phegeus, carrying the necklace and robe to Delphi to dedicate them, turned in at the house of Agapenor at the same time as Amphoterus and Acarnan, the sons of Alcmaeon; and the sons of Alcmaeon killed their father’s murderers, and going to Psophis and entering the palace they slew both Phegeus and his wife. They were pursued as far as Tegea, but saved by the intervention of the Tegeans and some Argives, and the Psophidians took to flight.


[7] Having acquainted their mother with these things, they went to Delphi and dedicated the necklace and robe according to the injunction of Achelous. Then they journeyed to Epirus, collected settlers, and colonized Acarnania..


Apollodorus, 3.76-3.77.


[12] After remaining in Tenedos two days at the advice of Thetis, Neoptolemus set out for the country of the Molossians by land with Helenus, and on the way Phoenix died, and Neoptolemus buried him; and having vanquished the Molossians in battle he reigned as king and begat Molossus on Andromache. And Helenus founded a city in Molossia and inhabited it, and Neoptolemus gave him his mother Deidamia to wife. And when Peleus was expelled from Phthia by the sons of Acastus and died, Neoptolemus succeeded to his father’s kingdom.”


Apollodorus, 6.12


“It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary’s, nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all admit to have been the greatest of all the generals who flourish at that same period;”


Dionysius of Halicarnnasus, Roman Antiquities, 19.11


“Theopompus says, that there are fourteen Epirotic nations. Of these, the most celebrated are the Chaones and Molotti, because the whole of Epirus was at one time subject, first to Chaones, afterwards to Molotti. Their power was greatly strengthened by the family of their kings being descended from the Æacidæ, and because the ancient and famous oracle of Dodona was in their country. Chaones, Thesproti, and next after these Cassopæi, (who are Thesproti,) occupy the coast, a fertile tract reaching from the Ceraunian mountains to the Ambracian Gulf.”


“The Molotti also were Epirotæ, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf.”


Strabo, 7.7.1


“Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus, had a particularly high opinion of his powers because he was deemed by foreign nations a match for the Romans; and he believed that it would be opportune to assist the fugitives who had taken refuge with him, especially as they were Greeks, and at the same time so forestall the Romans with some plausible excuse before he should suffer injury at their hands. For so careful was he about his good reputation that though he had long had his eye on Sicily and had been considering how he could overthrow the power of the Romans, he shrank from taking the initiative in hostilities against them, when no wrong had been done him.”


Cassius Dio, Book 9.4


19. When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight.


Frontinus, Strategemata, 13


“Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say, Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done, they themselves began to pillage right and left — the more confidently since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous position, they were routed and killed.
 
This is a tread for Illyria. The caucasian Albanians consider anciet greek Epir as an ancient Illyrian province witch is tottaly wrong! im sorry but i must save the situation
 
Paleo-Balkan_languages_in_Eastern_Europe_between_5th_and_1st_century_BC.png



@skylax
I think you are mostly correct , epirus was greek linguistically, BUT how did pyrrhus get the illyrian messapic people in Italy to support him and supply him with troops and food
 
Zanipolo.. They were not only the Messapians who supported Pyrro. They were all the greek people in Italy and Cisily.. Some ethnologists consider the Samnites-Savins-Savels as Illyrians but that tribe had the same traditional idioms like Spartans .. Their towns had not walls and their women were equal to men .. After the 3 Savin wars when the Romans had and took the control of central Italy both tribes were united under one state. The Rome. The Patricians came from Samnitae thats why they dressed like typical spartans! Their clothing was thrifty. They had naked chest and down from their weist they had white tunic. Like the Spartans. Pyrro send a greek messanger with the name Cyneas to Patricians of Rome for truce and he started to spoke to them dorian greek dialect!!! The language of Spartans..
 
The big problem for the illyrian issue is that Illyrians had not scripts or graphics so everything is hypothetical for them.. So let speak the stones, the marbles. the statues, the books who had greek and latin language and let the albanian stupidities. In Greece we say.. "Τhe hungry dreams round loaves"
 
Paleo-Balkan_languages_in_Eastern_Europe_between_5th_and_1st_century_BC.png



@skylax
I think you are mostly correct , epirus was greek linguistically, BUT how did pyrrhus get the illyrian messapic people in Italy to support him and supply him with troops and food

Epirus was indeed Greek, but I wouldn't count on that map as evidence.
This map looks like someone had some fun behind his computer. First of all, Greek expansion was not all the way up to Montenegro. Second, evidence points out that ancient Macedonian was most probably part of the Hellenic branch. Third, why are Macedonians situated north of ancient Macedonia? Where are the Paeonians and Dardanians? I'm smell a Balkan nationalist agenda here. Why do these people who create such maps waste their time? In order to change the academic opinion one needs evidence. Coloured maps won't do unfortunatelly.
 
Epirus was indeed Greek, but I wouldn't count on that map as evidence.
This map looks like someone had some fun behind his computer. First of all, Greek expansion was not all the way up to Montenegro. Second, evidence points out that ancient Macedonian was most probably part of the Hellenic branch. Third, why are Macedonians situated north of ancient Macedonia? Where are the Paeonians and Dardanians? I'm smell a Balkan nationalist agenda here. Why do these people who create such maps waste their time? In order to change the academic opinion one needs evidence. Coloured maps won't do unfortunatelly.

the map looks very generous to the greek language - nearly all the black sea , all albania ( there where no albanians there at the time frame of this map ) ...........maybe your are right, and maybe you are wrong.

The illyrians first crossed the neretva river around 400BC ( entering modern montenegro), they where stopped at the drin river and then fought a series of wars against alexander the great and his father.
 
Skylax

In my humble opinion neither Albanians neither Greeks have Proto-Illyrian and Proto-Greek blood.Genetically we are mostly Indo-Europeanized Paleo-Balkanoid people except that Albanians have more Atlanto-Baltic component than Greeks so we are a lil bit more Proto-Illyrian than you are Proto-Greek.

Modern Greeks have largely Pelasgian and other Minoan/Anatolian ancestry than from real Indo-European Greeks.
 
Skylax

In my humble opinion neither Albanians neither Greeks have Proto-Illyrian and Proto-Greek blood.Genetically we are mostly Indo-Europeanized Paleo-Balkanoid people except that Albanians have more Atlanto-Baltic component than Greeks so we are a lil bit more Proto-Illyrian than you are Proto-Greek.

Modern Greeks have largely Pelasgian and other Minoan/Anatolian ancestry than from real Indo-European Greeks.


It depends,
1rst we know that E Ydna is very old, but we don't know how old is in Balkans,
so it is difficult to claim paleo-Balkan since mostly G-Ydna is not that high

2nd the time age of I-Ydna is uncertain since K Nordvert is giving it very young and in Balkans I Ydna is strong

3rd the time age of J Ydna and its origins gives newer than Paleo Balkanic results


So it seems that both population have Pelasgian component.
Both population have Italian admixture

so?
It seems like Albanian Language at its today from is more younger to Balkans meaning that probably Illyrian (Illyria proprie Dicti and not Illyricum) were a mix of Central Europe with Pelasgians and today Albania has also a Northern component at least in Linguistic,

on the other hand Greece seems to resist more to the linguistic of the East-North migration at Byzantine and medieval times.

Both populations seems to kept mostly the same Y DNA analogy or %'s of that of late Roman times,
and both population manage to assimilate some Thracian blood and Lingua which probably in Albania kept its sounds due to Satem language, while in Greece change due to Centum

I do insist that is another area what Greeks name Illyria and what Romans named Illyricum,


PS
if we follow Kurgan hypothesis then IE language is a language of R1b and R1a
if we follow agricultural hypothesis (Anatolian) then IE is a G-Ydna language

although in second we do not know the role of J2 Ydna which maybe is a strong opponent or ally in agricultural hypothesis

E Ydna in Balkans as also some J components probably can be connected with Levant and Cyprus giving the 'wanted' Pelasgian DNA. (chalkolithic and copper era migrations)
 
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Skylax

In my humble opinion neither Albanians neither Greeks have Proto-Illyrian and Proto-Greek blood.Genetically we are mostly Indo-Europeanized Paleo-Balkanoid people except that Albanians have more Atlanto-Baltic component than Greeks so we are a lil bit more Proto-Illyrian than you are Proto-Greek.

Modern Greeks have largely Pelasgian and other Minoan/Anatolian ancestry than from real Indo-European Greeks.

I think what follows from the genetic research is that Albanians and Greeks largely descent from paleo-balkanic peoples. This is the key. Being proto-something is irrelevant and rather vague.

Little can be said with absolute certainty about how much proto-hellenic blood modern Greeks have. But then again, how much proto-hellenic blood did the Ancient Greeks have? If modern Greeks largely descent from Pelasgians and Minoans (as you claim and I don't disagree), and these people arrived there before the proto-hellenes, then the ancient Greek populations were also largely pelasgian/minoan. Their culture was a mixture of Minoan, Pelasgian, and Indo-european sub-cultures. And their gene pool was a mixture of all these peoples. It is no coincidence that we can see the haplogroups of those peoples in different places colonised by ancient Greeks. From Marsailles to Magna Graecia and beyond.

So, rather than saying Albanians and Greeks are A or B, or were A and are now B. You should take a three dimentional view. I.e. they are A+B+C. Because A didn't go anywhere when C arrived.
 
I'd be happier if people would stop using the word "Pelasgian", especially because it certainly does not belong into the Illyrian context. You have to remember that in the myths the Greeks had about their own ancestry, they are variously depicted as either the ancestors of the Greeks or the first known inhabitants of Greece. Conveyed into linguistics, the term may mean any "Pre-Greek" or non-Greek elements into the Greek language that we find. But, there is no archaeological culture we can deem as genuinely "Pelasgian", there was not "one" 'Pelasgian' language either. And the discussion is entirely disconnected from the Illyrians or the Illyrian language(s).

Taking things to the next step and talking about which Haplogroup or which not is "Pelasgian" is folly in my opinion.
 
It depends,
1rst we know that E Ydna is very old, but we don't know how old is in Balkans,
so it is difficult to claim paleo-Balkan since mostly G-Ydna is not that high

With Paleo-Balkanoid i didn't mean pre-Neolithic or Early Neolithic but before Indo-Europeanization.Wasn't G linked with Early Neolithic farmers who brought the Mediterranean component in Europe?Surprisingly G Y-DNA is low everywhere in Southern Europe except that we find a ~10-15% percent in Northern Sardinia and Corsica.

2nd the time age of I-Ydna is uncertain since K Nordvert is giving it very young and in Balkans I Ydna is strong

I think Nordvedt's opinion is that I2a2-Din came with South Slavic invasions.It makes sense to me based on modern percentages.

3rd the time age of J Ydna and its origins gives newer than Paleo Balkanic results

Indeed,J2 in Balkans is probably related with Anatolian Neolithic farmers.Though i suppose the J2b2 came earlier than the J2a subclade found on Greeks.

So it seems that both population have Pelasgian component.
Both population have Italian admixture

Weren't the Pelasgians thought to came from Anatolia?What is Italian admixture?Without any aDNA in the Balkans from Neolithic sites we can just make wild guesses.


It seems like Albanian Language at its today from is more younger to Balkans meaning that probably Illyrian (Illyria proprie Dicti and not Illyricum) were a mix of Central Europe with Pelasgians and today Albania has also a Northern component at least in Linguistic,
on the other hand Greece seems to resist more to the linguistic of the East-North migration at Byzantine and medieval times.

If you mean in comparison with Greek language then i agree.

PS
if we follow Kurgan hypothesis then IE language is a language of R1b and R1a
if we follow agricultural hypothesis (Anatolian) then IE is a G-Ydna language

PIE is definitely linked only with R1a1a subclades while IE includes the R1b too.The G Y-DNA is totally excluded from being a Indo-European marker.
 
With Paleo-Balkanoid i didn't mean pre-Neolithic or Early Neolithic but before Indo-Europeanization.Wasn't G linked with Early Neolithic farmers who brought the Mediterranean component in Europe?Surprisingly G Y-DNA is low everywhere in Southern Europe except that we find a ~10-15% percent in Northern Sardinia and Corsica.



I think Nordvedt's opinion is that I2a2-Din came with South Slavic invasions.It makes sense to me based on modern percentages.



Indeed,J2 in Balkans is probably related with Anatolian Neolithic farmers.Though i suppose the J2b2 came earlier than the J2a subclade found on Greeks.



Weren't the Pelasgians thought to came from Anatolia?What is Italian admixture?Without any aDNA in the Balkans from Neolithic sites we can just make wild guesses.




If you mean in comparison with Greek language then i agree.



PIE is definitely linked only with R1a1a subclades while IE includes the R1b too.The G Y-DNA is totally excluded from being a Indo-European marker.

This is a very good link for the balkans, ...check figure 2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/?tool=pmcentrez

In regards to G in sardinia, if its type G2a4 then its only from the 1920's forced migration of 72000 ( in 2 years) of NEItalians and istrians by mussolini


Anyway , link has all balkan nationals and there % in this 2008 report
 
Should we believe a propaganda video made from a Greek?

Stupidity and provoke exist in world much before youtube,
sometimes enters also in schools

Do you believe this crup and Albanian propaganda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wU87CAH95c&feature=related

In youtube the stupidity is big, there are people who earbn money writting extra-terestrial Historical stories,
Scientific fiction is not only for future, but from past also
 
Stupidity and provoke exist in world much before youtube,
sometimes enters also in schools
Mine wasn't a critique to Greeks but generally to people that present evidences basing themselves on a youtube video.
 
You shouldn't take into consideration YouTube videos. Most of the people posting are pre-teenagers just trying to kill time.

What i don't understand is why smo in this forum would make reference to a YouTube video.
 

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