Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Melancon]

You are a total lost cause!
Stop littering!
We are not responsible for your ignorance you show in understanding, on the topic being discussed!

It just goes to show how a typical Albanian thinks, perhaps. You guys are NOT related to ancient Greeks. The only one "fantasizing" here is you.

 

[Melancon]

You act like only your theory is right and everyone else is wrong.

Uhm, no I haven't.

Ev-13 is the first major Y-dna of albanians, just to clear that. So you are saying that it peaks in this and that and in that other place, and then you decide which place it may have "muttated"?Yours is just a hyphotesis.EV-13 is considered today as one of the oldest in the balkans, which has mutated in the balkans, possibly 8500 years ago. Keep in mind im not talking about e1b1b here (which entered the balkans), just not to confuse the things.Ev-13 is its subclade and as a subgroup it has formed latter.
However this thread had nothing to do with the gentics and i dont know why we are talking about that here.

Yes you are right about that. But what is so special and essential about E-V13? Probably that it is one of the few E1B1B lineages that is Caucasian/European in origin; and which seems to indicate that the founder effect for this Y-DNA could have happened around Albania and the area of Kosovo. Or it seems to imply that these are the very same people who brought this marker of E1B1B into Europe.

However this thread had nothing to do with the gentics and i dont know why we are talking about that here.

As I stated before; the Albanian language is an agglutinative language, not a fusional language. Some people here were suggesting it may be relative to Greek, but this seems more unlikely as Greek tends to lack agglutination in it's grammar. Armenian is the only other language in the Indo-European language of families that is agglutinative. So, um, fail on your part?

 

[kamani]

Oh yeah, really? And just where is the evidence that you present to back up this "fact"? You cocky, ill-informed sanctimony. Or is it "just a theory". Massive hypocrisy on your part.

Read all the threads and my postings on Albanians, but since you're being rude, that's as far as my inclination to help you goes.

 

[albanopolis]

You can alway ignore posts if they are getting on your nerve too much. Otherwise Melancone's posts are within Eupedia's guidelines.
Welcome to Eupedia Melancone.

He is not getting to my nerves with the strength of he's argument.
He is getting to my nerves with the strength of his ignorance.
The forums purpose is to know each others views even when we don't agree with them.
But you don't enter the forum with total ignorance and then start ********!

 

[Melancon]

Read all the threads and my postings on Albanians, but since you're being rude, that's as far as my inclination to help you goes.

Rude? I find it to be total hypocrisy and ignorance on your part; to assume that I side with any kind of Nationalist movement when determining the origins of Albanians. I am not the one here being, biased. It is you and whoever claims that I am. Is it not rude enough for you to assume that I get all my perspectives and theories from the perspectives of nationalists?

But that's beside the point. Just wanted to clarify the immaturity of some of you, your hypocrisy and your ill-informed counter-arguments...

 

[Melancon]

He is not getting to my nerves with the strength of he's argument.
He is getting to my nerves with the strength of his ignorance.
The forums purpose is to know each others views even when we don't agree with them.
But you don't enter the forum with total ignorance and then start ********!

Don't get jealous at me just because you start to suck at the game ... reason you hate me is for your own ignorance and hypocrisy; and your own agenda and fantasizing. Nobody here is being ignorant but YOU. I never passed off my theories as a fact.

Alas, please take his advice and put me on ignore, you are too irresponsible. Do not turn this post into a flame-war.

 

[albanopolis]

It just goes to show how a typical Albanian thinks, perhaps. You guys are NOT related to ancient Greeks. The only one "fantasizing" here is you.

I feel like throwing up!
Get a book a read something before you enter an argument!
Then you can be a more acceptable and intelligent provocateur. But provoking through ignorance is annoying.
Its not like you make the debater beaten through argument.
There are other members in this forum who deny the Illyrian argument of Albanians. But most of them do it with smart way introducing arguments that make sense.
We are not here to teach the beginners. We suppose you have minimal knowledge.
So be smart and get away of this thread!

 

[albanopolis]

Don't get jealous at me just because you start to suck at the game ... reason you hate me is for your own ignorance and hypocrisy; and your own agenda and fantasizing. Nobody here is being ignorant but YOU. I never passed off my theories as a fact.

Alas, please take his advice and put me on ignore, you are too irresponsible. Do not turn this post into a flame-war.

This forum was civilized until you got in.
Most of non Albanians were opposing the Illyrian argument of Albanians, and that was fine with me, but they showed they were aware of the work of scholars in this topic. I am not a scholar and no need to mention you, so our discussion is conducted on the basis of what scholars have said about it. You choose your scholars but you can't enter the argument with total lack of understanding. And you think I am jealous of your arguments.
I am annoyed by your total nonsense!
So, take a break, go to other forums and start spamming!

 

[DejaVu]

99% spam and not related to topic - Illyrian-Albanian Continuity in linguistics.
Most spammed thread and done that by Shqiptars mostly.
Why so much discussion about something not related instead of linguistic connection?
Must be that Shqiptars cant accept the none connection.
Dont want to call you Albanians when you are no Albanians (Hijacked name), you call yourselves Shqiptars.

 

[albanopolis]

99% spam and not related to topic - Illyrian-Albanian Continuity in linguistics.
Most spammed thread and done that by Shqiptars mostly.
Why so much discussion about something not related instead of linguistic connection?
Must be that Shqiptars cant accept the none connection.
Dont want to call you Albanians when you are no Albanians (Hijacked name), you call yourselves Shqiptars.

Its not up to Shqiptars to accept it or not! History has already happened! We can't change it.
Scholars have said their word already. Most scholars are for Illyrian Albanian continuity, some are not. Both have their hits and misses.
So we discuss in the forum whatever our conviction are, but always based on the scientific work of others.
We don't except the forums agree with our views, but we expect the forums are within the frame of accepted argument. How can you have a discussion with someone that talk nonsense?
Why we have not gotten in argument with the forum-er that ID's himself as DeJavu?

 

[DejaVu]

Its not up to Shqiptars to accept it or not! History has already happened! We can't change it.
Scholars have said their word already. Most scholars are for Illyrian Albanian continuity, some are not. Both have their hits and misses.
So we discuss in the forum whatever our conviction are, but always based on the scientific work of others.
We don't except the forums agree with our views, but we expect the forums are within the frame of accepted argument. How can you have a discussion with someone that talk nonsense?
Why we have not gotten in argument with the forum-er that ID's himself as DeJavu?

Continue with sources not empty talk (spam). Accept and continue.
Doubt that you know what source means or what is relevant information.

 

[Garrick]

Right; but correct me if I am wrong; but some southern Albanians are actually Greeks. And according to certain nationalists, South Albania is actually meant to be a Greek territory. While Northern Albania and Kosovo Albanians share genetics more in common with Turks and Caucasians. (Excluding Armenians.)

We must realize that Albanian is an agglutinative language also; and has a totally different grammatical structure to Greek, and Thracian. Thus rendering their language relation to Greek to be quite unlikely; and much older. This means that Albanians may be an older culture, if we talk linguistic origins and isolate genetic origin. The only Indo-European languages that are still vibrant, and possess agglutinative grammar structure; are both Albanian and Armenian; but Albanian people and their language show very little connection to the Armenians in linguistics, as well as genetics. Even though both languages are Indo-European and agglutinative; they seem to share no similarity.

Agglutinative languages are extremely rare in the Indo-European language group, and are usually found in non-IE language groups such has Uralic or Basque. Agglutinative languages are usually more ancient in origin than modern Indo-European languages. Making it very likely that the Albanian language is a very ancient branch of IE; and it may have likely originated in Anatolia, the Black Sea or around the Caucuses; when Indo-European was still a very young language group. I don't know if Illyrian was an agglutinative language; but I have never studied it and it seems the records of this language is either non-existent or very terse. Maybe these Albanian people originated somewhere around the Black Sea; or are an Anatolian people.

There is one possible theory that Albanian originate from Caucasus (probably from carriers of R1b ht35, so-called Armenian haplotype). Some people from the Caucasus came to the mountainous parts of today's Romania and there they merged with the indigenous majority (probably mostly E-V13 carriers). This population was moving towards Bulgaria (still mixing with other Balkan peoples) and with Bulgarian advancement they came to Adriatic and hinterland.

One of linguistic problems is because we do not know which language the carriers of E-V13 population spoke. There are researchers (and among Albanians) who try to find link between Albanian and Afro-Asiatic languages. The assumption is that E-V13 carriers spoke language of Afro-Asiatic group.

It is possible that one part of words in today's Albanian originate from Afro-Asiatic languages. But basis of language should be Caucasus if the initial hypothesis is correct. Certainly, if it is correct, Albanian should have some Dacian/Thracian, Slavic and Latin words.

If Albanians late came to the Adriatic, then the impact of Greek should be smaller, although Greek had impact on the territory which today cover Romania and Bulgaria (but more coastal areas).

This theory has different supporters. Bit if it is correct Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

 

[Gorgonzola]

99% spam and not related to topic - Illyrian-Albanian Continuity in linguistics.
Most spammed thread and done that by Shqiptars mostly.
Why so much discussion about something not related instead of linguistic connection?
Must be that Shqiptars cant accept the none connection.
Dont want to call you Albanians when you are no Albanians (Hijacked name), you call yourselves Shqiptars.

So your telling me that what you post here is related to the topic???The one's whose post was once deleted???This is the most stupid and most nonsense bull**** post on this forum for sure!
Albanians has been the name of the albanians since when they first appear (albanoi, arbanite, arbanasi, albanensis,arnaut) and it countinued to be like that during the entire history.
I just posted in coment #639 with facts and links how the albanians called themselfs, and you say something like this.You are so much biased that u shouldn't even comment here, it doesn't let you be partial.

 

[Melancon]

Everyone, please calm down. The origins of the Albanians are obviously a very sketchy and controversial one; and we do not want to start any conflicts here. Respect others' perspectives, even if you may disagree with them.

 

[Gorgonzola]

There is one possible theory that Albanian originate from Caucasus (probably from carriers of R1b ht35, so-called Armenian haplotype). Some people from the Caucasus came to the mountainous parts of today's Romania and there they merged with the indigenous majority (probably mostly E-V13 carriers). This population was moving towards Bulgaria (still mixing with other Balkan peoples) and with Bulgarian advancement they came to Adriatic and hinterland. One of linguistic problems is because we do not know which language the carriers of E-V13 population spoke. There are researchers (and among Albanians) who try to find link between Albanian and Afro-Asiatic languages. The assumption is that E-V13 carriers spoke language of Afro-Asiatic group.It is possible that one part of words in today's Albanian originate from Afro-Asiatic languages. But basis of language should be Caucasus if the initial hypothesis is correct. Certainly, if it is correct, Albanian should have some Dacian/Thracian, Slavic and Latin words.If Albanians late came to the Adriatic, then the impact of Greek should be smaller, although Greek had impact on the territory which today cover Romania and Bulgaria (but more coastal areas).This theory has different supporters. Bit if it is correct Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

Actually that theory is mostly rejected by the scholars and historians, and it doesn't have any great support today, exept from some neighbours of the albanians with irredentist claims. Maybe in the 19 century, it had support.

"The Caucasian theory was first proposed by Renaissance humanists who were familiar with the works of classical geographers, and later developed by early 19th-century French consul and writer François Pouqueville. It was rendered obsolete in the 19th century when linguists proved that Albanian is an Indo-European, rather than Caucasian language."

I wanted to post something on this topic taking as a reference on of the most known albanologists today.I hope you know that Albanology is the science that studies Albanian language, culture and History of Albania.

Robert Elsie---

Albanian is a language of the extensive Indo-European family and is thus related to a certain degree to almost all other languages of Europe. The Indo-European character of the language was first recognized in 1854 by the German linguist Franz Bopp (1791-1867). At the same time, Albanian shows no particularly close historical affinity to any other language or language group within the Indo-European family, i.e. it forms a language group of its own.Despite Albania’s geographical proximity to Greece, linguistic contacts with ancient Greek seem to have been sporadic. Roman trading settlements on the Illyrian coast and Albania’s absorption into the Roman Empire, however, left noticeable traces in the language. Borrowings from Latin, which took place over a period of several centuries, were so massive as to threaten the very structure of the language. Cultural contacts with the Slavs (Bulgarians and Serbs), Turks and Italians have also left substantial strata of vocabulary in Albanian.Not only in its vocabulary, but also in its morphology and syntax, Albanian shows many traits in common with other Balkan languages, due both to extinct substrata languages (Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian) and to centuries of parallel development. Among these traits are: a postpositive definite article; the fusion of the genitive and dative case endings; the formation of the numbers 11-19 by “one on ten”; the absence of a grammatical infinitive; and the formation of the future tense with the verb “to want.”

http://www.albanianlanguage.net

 

[DejaVu]

So your telling me that what you post here is related to the topic???The one's whose post was once deleted???This is the most stupid and most nonsense bull**** post on this forum for sure!
I just posted in coment #639 with facts and links how the albanians called themselfs, and you say something like this.You are so much biased that u shouldn't even comment here, it doesn't let you be partial.

Shqiptar continue to post about related information of this topic - Illyrian-Albanian Continuity in linguistics, nothing else.
Nobody cares about your opinion.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Shqiptar continue to post about related information of this topic - Illyrian-Albanian Continuity in linguistics, nothing else.
Nobody cares about your opinion.

LOL! How the hell do you even know that i am albanian???? How funny.

Actually nobody cares about your opinion!You are spamming this thread and you continue to do it, noone else.I have had my say here "about this topic" like you say, if you don't see it not my problem.

And the albanians have a different name and if you dont call them by their ethnic ethnonym, then don't even comment.This is not a place to put "nicknames" on people, its a serious forum and you should be formal.

 

[Garrick]

Actually that theory is mostly rejected by the scholars and historians, and it doesn't have any great support today, exept from some neighbours of the albanians with irredentist claims. Maybe in the 19 century, it had support.

"The Caucasian theory was first proposed by Renaissance humanists who were familiar with the works of classical geographers, and later developed by early 19th-century French consul and writer François Pouqueville. It was rendered obsolete in the 19th century when linguists proved that Albanian is an Indo-European, rather than Caucasian language."

I wanted to post something on this topic taking as a reference on of the most known albanologists today.I hope you know that Albanology is the science that studies Albanian language, culture and History of Albania.

Robert Elsie---

Albanian is a language of the extensive Indo-European family and is thus related to a certain degree to almost all other languages of Europe. The Indo-European character of the language was first recognized in 1854 by the German linguist Franz Bopp (1791-1867). At the same time, Albanian shows no particularly close historical affinity to any other language or language group within the Indo-European family, i.e. it forms a language group of its own.Despite Albania’s geographical proximity to Greece, linguistic contacts with ancient Greek seem to have been sporadic. Roman trading settlements on the Illyrian coast and Albania’s absorption into the Roman Empire, however, left noticeable traces in the language. Borrowings from Latin, which took place over a period of several centuries, were so massive as to threaten the very structure of the language. Cultural contacts with the Slavs (Bulgarians and Serbs), Turks and Italians have also left substantial strata of vocabulary in Albanian.Not only in its vocabulary, but also in its morphology and syntax, Albanian shows many traits in common with other Balkan languages, due both to extinct substrata languages (Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian) and to centuries of parallel development. Among these traits are: a postpositive definite article; the fusion of the genitive and dative case endings; the formation of the numbers 11-19 by “one on ten”; the absence of a grammatical infinitive; and the formation of the future tense with the verb “to want.”

http://www.albanianlanguage.net

That theory evolved and it is close with Romanian theories. According it, today's Albanian population originate from mountain areas Romania/Moldavia. This population is mixed E-V13 with R1b ht35. It is possible that J2 participated in that population although there are opinions (I gave thinking of Dienekes) that J2 very late came in Albanian population.

I don't say that theory is correct, I'm saying that it gives possible explanation.

Originally theory from XIX century considered that Albanians were only Caucasus people. No, they aren't.

According evolved theory, only part of Albanians (and of course less part) originate with Caucasus, and they are mixed with Balkan/Bessarabian majority population.

This theory is hard for approval, of course, but and every another theory is hard, too. You can see that some members of forum wrote that Albanians originate from Romania/Moldavia (but they are not Dacian people).

 

[Gorgonzola]

That theory evolved and it is close with Romanian theories. According it, today's Albanian population originate from mountain areas Romania/Moldavia. This population is mixed E-V13 with R1b ht35. It is possible that J2 participated in that population although there are opinions (I gave thinking of Dienekes) that J2 very late came in Albanian population.

The romanian theory is the theory that the albanians are descendants of the dacians, i have read about the origin of the albanians and i would have known if there was a theory that albanians originate from romania without mentioning the Dacians into it.Maybe its a new one, but again i must add here that albanians being a mixed population (like this thoery says) is something odd, because isnt a really worked theory today.Mostly theories focus only on one group of people.
Plus we have to take into consideration that albanian is a considered a paleo-balkan language and this theory doesnt give any date of the arrival of the albanians.
However i like to consider mostly the theories of famous scholars like Norbert Jokl or Robert Elsie, like stated above.

Originally theory from XIX century considered that Albanians were only Caucasus people. No, they aren't.

Wait a minute, this isn't true because the first theory the illyrian theory was worked and proposed in the 18 century by the swedish Johann Erich Thunmann, so this theory couldn't be the only one even back there.

 

[Melancon]

That theory evolved and it is close with Romanian theories. According it, today's Albanian population originate from mountain areas Romania/Moldavia. This population is mixed E-V13 with R1b ht35. It is possible that J2 participated in that population although there are opinions (I gave thinking of Dienekes) that J2 very late came in Albanian population.

I don't say that theory is correct, I'm saying that it gives possible explanation.

Originally theory from XIX century considered that Albanians were only Caucasus people. No, they aren't.

According evolved theory, only part of Albanians (and of course less part) originate with Caucasus, and they are mixed with Balkan/Bessarabian majority population.

This theory is hard for approval, of course, but and every another theory is hard, too. You can see that some members of forum wrote that Albanians originate from Romania/Moldavia (but they are not Dacian people).

As an alternative to the Illyrian hypothesis; I'll agree somewhat and stand by my theory that the Albanian culture, may have originated around the Black Sea. Maybe the area around Ukraine, Moldova, or Anatolia. (Now Turkey). And these people migrated Westward into the Balkans, at some point.



Also, there is a problem to the Illyrian hypothesis. If the Albanians are Illyrians, and so are the Bosnians, Croats, and Slovenians. Then how does this explain some Bosnians, Croats and Slovenians having totally different Y-DNA and mtDna distinct markers, such as I2a2? And a lack of mtDna T. Haplogroup I2 is more rarer in Albanian peoples and mtDna haplogroup T is actually a lot more abundant. The Illyrian theory would seem very logical; but there are very distinct contradictions that require more research and analysis. It suggests that either Y-DNA I2 isn't Illyrian, and neither are Slovenes, Croats or Bosnians. Or either the Albanians are not Illyrians. Because the genetic relation between these people are actually seem to be very minimal; despite them both inhabiting the Illyrian Urheimat. It seems very unlikely and contradictory that they would have a similarity in Illyrian origins; unless Albanians once shared the DNA of Slovenes, Bosnians, and Croats and then were later taken over by a different people. (Making Albanians no more Illyrian) It is more rational to assume that Slovenes, Bosnians and Croats were the original Illyrians who were conquered by invading Slavic cultures.


My theory of Albanians with a Black Sea or Anatolian origin, seems more likely genetically, than the traditional Illyrian theory.


I believe Albanians may actually be a people originating from near the Black Sea (which is now either Ukraine or Turkey) or the Caucuses. I'm not sure if they are an Illyrian people, and this theory (my hypothesis) seems to be the only alternative. I was having a debate on that earlier.


I disagree with you, though, that the E-V13 haplogroup may have an original Afro-Asiatic origin. I believe it may be Caucasian. If it did originate from Afro-Asiatic speakers, this would mean that E-V13 probably originated from a place like Crete or Cyprus, where Afro-Asiatic speakers have passed through; during several conquests and migrations.



As far as I know, there are no records of any Afro-Asiatic culture actually settling into Europe; besides only the Phoenician colonists; and also, the Moorish conquest of the Iberian peninsula, as well as Sardinia, Sicily and Maltese. etc.


If Albanians are indeed Illyrians, how did J2b and E-V13 become their two most distinctive haplogroups? Were they actually spread there by the invading Ottoman Turks and their Empire? This means the original Albanian "Illyrians", have become admixed by a foreign culture.