Religion Is Christianity really a monotheistic Faith?

Kaminari said:
Someone enters a religious forum to discuss religion and god, but then decides that he doesn't want theology to enter into the debate. the term ?o?J???? comes to mind.
Actually it's a religion and philosophy forum, so I think it's OK to look at it from the philosophy side, and ignore the religion, if that's how you want to play it. Credit to Doc for being up front about his intentions. And I think the name-calling is uncalled-for.
 
Wouldn't like to be a member of church in which a pastor makes these kind of comments; Index
Actually it's a religion and philosophy forum, so I think it's OK to look at it from the philosophy side, and ignore the religion, if that's how you want to play it. Credit to Doc for being up front about his intentions. And I think the name-calling is uncalled-for.
I can see your point of view, Tsuyoiko. But as in all things, there are different ways to view a problem, and different views on how to properly address problems that arise.
My point of view is that someone entered into a discussion and attempted to enforce his own rules and terms as to how that discussion may proceed. And to properly handle the problem, I felt it necessary to resist.

(and yes, it is the thread that places the discussion in the realms of religion, not the forum.)
 
Kaminari said:
Try http://www.blueletterbible.org/ Revenant. A whole raft of Concordances, Dictionaries and Encyclopaediae available there.

Had a look, the only dictionary that I could get a definition of 'Elohi' from just said it meant God.
 
Kaminari said:
Not a parallel exactly - The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of wisdom. Koine Greek sofia (sophia) means wisdom.
Thanks Kaminari - I understand about gender of nouns. I was talking about the personification of Sophia as female that can be found in the OT - for example, in Proverbs 9 and in the Wisdom of Solomon (not now in the OT, but part of the Septuagint). Wisdom 8 clearly personifies Sophia as female, for example:
Wisdom of Solomon said:
I loved her and sought her from my youth
and sought to take her as a bride for myself
 
Ah yes ... I HAD overlooked those points, Tsuyoiko. I think that Wisdom is in the common Bible, but right now I can't locate it...it WAS here a couple of hours ago, I'm sure.

Let's see now
Owner of buses would make "owner" to be buses
Spirit of Wisdom would make "spirit" to be wisdom

Do I got it right?
 
Kaminari said:
Let's see now
Owner of buses would make "owner" to be buses
Spirit of Wisdom would make "spirit" to be wisdom

Do I got it right?
Sorry Kaminari, you've lost me.
 
Ack! Revenant, Eloi includes a suffix that makes the word into "my God." That's like trying to find a single entry for ???̐_?l in a Japanese dictionary. It's a wonder you could find anything at all.

Tsuyoiko: Is it wisdom that is said to be desirable as a bride, or the spirit of wisdom?
 
Kaminari said:
Tsuyoiko: Is it wisdom that is said to be desirable as a bride, or the spirit of wisdom?
Ahh, now I get you. But saying that wisdom is desirable as a bride is personifying wisdom, and that's what I understand a spirit to be - a personification of some abstract principle. I know that's not how everyone understands 'spirit', but that's where I'm coming from.
 
Kaminari said:
Someone enters a religious forum to discuss religion and god, but then decides that he doesn't want theology to enter into the debate. the term ?o?J???? comes to mind.

Sadly insults are not going to get you anywhere in having a friendly debate over the topic.

I can see your point of view, Tsuyoiko. But as in all things, there are different ways to view a problem, and different views on how to properly address problems that arise.

The funny thing you mention that because the more I look at, the more it looks like you're talking about yourself. I'm just trying to have a friendly chat and open up a new point of view on the subject, but unfortunately you are the one who keeps up with "I am right you are wrong" attitude. Quite frankly I find it a bit insulting to my intelligence that you would proceed with such actions. Your attitude shows that you think everything that I write is nonsense, and that everything you write is the correct prospective on the topic. It's really quite sad if you think about it because I'm just trying to have a friendly chat and share my ideas, but you just can't seem to handle that. That's fine because I'm not going to start some petty debate with what is right and what is wrong in looking at the Bible. If you think the philosophical outlook is worthless and shouldn't be discussed in this thread then I feel sorry for you because you are obviously ignorant to the fact that the theological point of view isn't the only true view to look at the Bible.

Either chill out, get out of the topic if you can't handle it, or better yet don't even bother replying to my posts if you don't like my thoughts on the subject. It's not that hard to do. I'm just advising you to watch it with name calling because that sort of thing isn't accepted around here, intellecutally or not. If you can't be open minded and accept the fact that not everybody wants to perceive the Bible in the same view, and has their own outlooks on the Bible then it just goes to show that you are the one who wants their view to be the correct view for this topic, and that is uncalled for. As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over, and any further debate will do nothing but hinder the quality of this topic.

Doc :genji:
 
A couple different points:

1.) What I share in this post is from a practical Catholic's perspective. I am ok-versed (not necessarily well-versed by I do know a good deal of the official Catholic teachings) in the Catechism of the Holy Catholic Church, and I am not saying that you have to believe what I believe (despite the fact that I would hope that everyone were Catholic--I come with no false image). I am only presenting this information from the perspective of the teachings of the Church.

2.) The Book of Wisdom is found in the Catholic Bible. In most versions of the Bible (King James, New King James, etc.), the Books of Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 Machabees, and 2 Machabees from the Old Testament are omitted (I'm not quite sure why). The Deutero-Canonical Books are only found in Catholic Bibles.

3.) The Catechism of the Catholic Church's definition of the Trinity is: "The mystery of one God, in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The revealed truth of the Holy Trinity is at the very root of the Church's living faith as expressed in the Creed. The mystery of the Trinity in itself is inaccessible to the human mind and is the object of faith only because it was revealed by Jesus Christ, the divine Son of the eternal Father." Therefore, we are monotheists, that is comprised of the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Our God is a triune God, and the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit, too, is God. You can imagine this concept as a triangle. You can look at any one corner of the triangle, but it's still the same. It may literally a different corner, but it's still the same angle measure and has the same properties as the other angles. In addition, to give a pretty good image, we say in the Nicene Creed "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshipped and glorified." It's an idea of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all with the same beginning as God, but as three different Persons.

4.) As for Mary: no, we do not worship her, and we do not believe that she is a god or comes anywhere near God's glory. Yes, she was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus, but that does not at all make her non-human. We do venerate her, and call her Blessed. She was assumed (meaning she did not die) into Heaven because she had not sinned, and God made it possible for her to be born without Original Sin so that she may give birth to Jesus. We may also call her the Holy Mother (don't let that make you think that equate her with the same status as our Holy Father).

5.) A similar case for the Saints. In the Apostle's Creed, (which begins "I believe" not "We believe" like the Nicene Creed), it says, "I believe in...the communion of saints...". The idea that there is a communion of saints alludes to the fact that we are in a brotherhood with them. They are mortals who have died, but lived very holy lives and contributed great things to the world. It is true that there is a process for the canonization of a to-be Saint, and that process does mean that they have to have performed 2 miracles since their death. [Going into my own understanding of the canonization process, and I'm not sure how the Catholic Church understands the wording of it.] Rather, it's not that they are actually performing the miracle, but that they are causing it. Because the Catholic absolutely DOES NOT <b>worship</b> any Saint, it cannot be that while we are in prayer that we are praying to a particular saint as if we were praying to God. We ask the saint to pray for our sake to God! For example, in the Confiteor it says "I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do. And I ask Blessed Mary ever virgin, to pray for me to the Lord, our God."

[back to official Catholic Doctrine.]
I do know, that when we pray to a saint, we pray to them as we might pray to a deceased member of the family. That person has specific meaning to us, and they have a specific connection to the family. When praying, we may ask them to look out for a younger child like a guardian angel. The angels are not God, but they do help us to form our prayers better, to hone them and focus in a certain way, and to model our lives better. Yes, our ultimate role model is Jesus, but sometimes a saint can offer wonderful inspiration and perhaps hase gone through similar trials in his/her life that we are going through at the present. But we, humans on earth and saints in heaven, belong to the same community as children of God. You wouldn't say that going to a good friend for help is raising them to God status, and you wouldn't say that asking your sister for help w/ talking to the girl you're sweet on were worshipping her. Ask any Catholic, and they will tell you that the saints were extremely holy people, and continue to intercede in our lives, but they--as all else does--fall short of the Glory of God.

6.) I just read in a couple of the posts the word "Eloi." I thought I'd make a quick note about when Jesus is on the cross, and he says "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani." This is the beginning of Psalm 22, which has a general message of "I feel forsaken by all around me, and I cannot find you, yet how Holy art Thou." At the end of the Psalm, it says that all will turn to God and worship Him. I just thought I'd clear up a common misconception that Jesus was crying out and felt cast away--no, instead, He was telling all to look to the Lord for salvation, and that He will deliver unto us what He has promised. I don't know why I felt like I needed to share this, but I felt it is misconception enough that it deserved to be put here--although slightly irrelevant to the idea of Christianity as monotheistic.

Oh crud, I have to run. I'll give a follow-up post to some other things I was going to mention. Sorry for the digression at the end, and I hope this post was informative about the way Catholics believe, and what exactly we do believe.
 
Greetings, Blue Suede Shoes. I'll be looking for your next post.
 
Blue_Suede_Shoes said:
I am only presenting this information from the perspective of the teachings of the Church.
More like: as you understand the teachings of your church.

4.) As for Mary: no, we do not worship her,
You may not worship her, but there are Catholics who do.

5.) A similar case for the Saints. [...]
I do know, that when we pray to a saint, we pray to them as we might pray to a deceased member of the family.
Agreed, very similar. You may do so, which doesn't mean all Catholics do.
 
(Just for the record, I'm extremely tired right now, so what I wrote in this post may repeat itself a bit or may be lacking somewhat in a certain logical progression of logical point to logical point. I'm sorry if I have done so, and am very willing to make amendments to what I've stated depending upon the feedback I get (for example, if I get a couple responses telling me that I'm not making any logical progression, or I'm skipping some steps, or I'm just making circular arguments, or something of that nature). I apologize greatly for any inconvenience the length of this post imposes on you.)

I'm willing to concede that there may be Catholics who do worship Saints and Mary, but that is definitely not Church Doctrine. I am not certain how wide-spread that practice is, either. I know that certain faith communities within the Church may seem to worship them, but I know for certain that that is not what they are practicing. A particular devotion to a Saint or to Mary may be seen as worshipping, but it definitely isn't.

Also, yes, presenting from my understanding of the teachings of the Church, but I am fairly certain that my understanding is in line with the Church's formal teaching of what is Doctrine and what is not.

In response to a question posted earlier (not sure by whom) about why many atheists come from the Catholic Church as opposed to other Christian denominations. My understanding is that to be a practical Catholic (someone who is in Communion with the Church, who attends weekly Mass, goes to Confession, etc) is a bit more intense than being a practical Christian outside of the Catholic Church. To be a Catholic is to accept a lot of things that one may not like. For example, that you have to come face to face with your sins and before a Priest and God, confess that you've committed it. In non-Catholic (and non-Anglican, I suppose--I'm not sure) denominations, Confession (Reconciliation, what have you) is not a Sacrament, and therefore you don't necessarily have to deal with your sins on a deeper level. For one to have a complete confession and thus be absolved of sin, one must confess to the best of their knowledge all sins committed since their last confession, truly be sorry for having committed them, and make an act of penance. In non-Catholic demoninations, this act is not necessary, although there may be personal acts of penance, one does not necessarily have to be completely honest with oneself. The Catholic Church forces you to.

Believe it or not, I'm actually getting to a point. As a Catholic, one is expected to embrace the fact that one does sin, and recognize that God will forgive, but there are a lot of demands put on you about how you live. Yes, there are TONS of things that are shared between all Christian faiths, but the Catholic Church also has other things to swallow--like the Papacy. If you grow up Catholic, and then one day, you decide that the Papacy is bogus because you don't believe in the Papacy's stance on that whole Pro-Life business (condoms, abortions, etc). Well, if you don't believe in the Papacy, then you can't be a practical Catholic, and dropping from the faith is a natural response. You may not be an atheist, but you still turn away. As for atheists coming from the Church--as I said before, there's a lot to swallow (other than the Papacy), but for some reason (I don't know why), it's just easy to stop being a practical Catholic. If you're Protestant: so you don't go to Church every week? it's no big deal. If you're Catholic: you don't to Church every week--that can put you in a state of mortal sin--a state of sin that can't be wiped away but by Confession. Why would this be a state of mortal sin?--because we are supposed to love God with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our bodies, and not to go to Mass to glorify Him and receive Him through the Sacrament of the Eucharist is to turn away from God in a very direct way. A lot of people miss the beauty of the liturgy, the music and the ritual that glorify God, dismissing it as a compulsory event that is boring. Sadly, a lot of Churches are boring. But looking at that aspect makes not going to Mass the fault of the Priest, director of liturgical music, etc., not recognizing your own fault for avoiding glorification of God.

But it's in this way that one can easily fall away from the Church. And later, down the road, when a person has followed the above pattern has a traumatic event (i.e. death in the family, or breaking up of a strong relationship, or anything important going wrong, really), it's easier to say "Ha, yeah right God, you weren't really ever there, were you?" There's an interesting book out there called Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice that has some to do with this very topic. People can just dislike the Church for being conservative in so many ways, and really demanding that its constituents take part in that life style. So often, we are looking for a way to rebel in life (especially in the teens), and to have a Church teaching you and demanding that you must live your religious/spiritual life a certain way, and how that life directly influences your behaviour in your day-to-day events can really bother someone, and cause them to go in the exact opposite direction. Yes, one can have a fall from any faith, but I think that one of the great reasons many atheists may come from the Catholic faith is through a process of
1.) (in the case of a cradle Catholic) growing up w/out much understanding or taking much interest in the ritual of the Church/ the importance of Mass
2.) experiencing some event (traumatic or even one that just raises questions) that causes one to turn their back on the Church
3.) a movement in the completely opposite direction of the Church, and standing for the antithesis of Catholicism.

I think that I said pretty much what I wanted to say in this last post, but I'm sure any further questions will ferret out better clarifications of what I was saying.
 
A couple clarifications for the post I made before my most recent post:

A saint can be canonized in a multitude of ways. For example, can be a martyr and then have 1 miracle, or can have 2 miracles after a non-martyr's death.

What I described about a saint's role in a miracle is Catholic Doctrine. It is not the saint who performs the miracle, but it is in a way attributed to that saint. I say "in a way" because all miracles are performed only by God, but it is attributed to that particular saint for their intercession and their prayer to God on our behalf.

And please, make note that "Saint" should be "saint" in my previous post, unless I'm referencing a specific saint, but since I don't believe that is the case, it should be written "saint" in all instances of that word.
 
Just one more thing, and then I'll stop posting for tonight, but who gave me negative feedback on my post, #50? Perhaps that's the reason I couldn't see who gave me negative feedback, but I really must ask: why I received negative feedback? I'm sorry if I offended someone in some way, but I would really like to know why I received negative on that post for putting up there what I thought was a very neutral and honest post. I would like to know for future reference so that I don't offend people in the future...
 
Thanks for your very informative posts Blue Suede Shoes (that's a long name - can I call you BSS? :p ). It's much more interesting to get the info from an 'insider' :)

Sorry this is getting a bit offtopic Mycernius, but I have a question about the saints.
BSS said:
it cannot be that while we are in prayer that we are praying to a particular saint as if we were praying to God
I don't understand the difference between the reverence shown to saints and worship of God. It almost seems to me that they are different in theory but the same in practice. For example, the Hail Mary is a prayer and it is addressed to Mary, so doesn't that make it a prayer to Mary? How is that different to praying to God? I googled for some Catholic prayers, and a lot of them seemed to be asking the saints to do stuff. How is that different to asking God to do stuff? I'm confused! :? I look forward to your next post! :cool:
 
I was born catholic... (I'm Italian...)and I can say that at least for my experience, Catholicism is not far away from paganism... if you go to every Italian or Spanish city they worship, saints as they were gods, in fact many festivals still the same as before Christianity, instead to celebrate a god they celebrate a saint, but for the same thing?c

Christmas day is still the same day as before Christianity and so on..
 
I'm also very sorry for how this conversation has become a little off-center of the topic of Christianity as a monotheistic religion, although the idea of saints in Catholicism is a very relevant topic, I think.

Yes, Tsuyoiko (tsuyoi as in strong, ko as in child?), please feel free to call me BSS (although please don't omit the 2nd S--lest I be just full of "BS".....haha, maybe I'm the only one laughing...alas).

To respond first to Cursore's post: Yes, I suppose it is true that many people don't realize that there is a devotion so strong that it becomes idolatry, but I still must say that many of those people would still claim that they place greater importance in God than in Mary or other saints. I'm sorry to say that there are a lot of people who don't realize that they are misworshipping (if that is an actual term, I don't really know, but if it is not, I just made it one).

To respond to Tsuyoiko's post: To venerate a saint is to basically do the same as give someone a compliment for doing something well, but more along the lines of complimenting that saint for living a holy life. As we recognize other people in our lives as having certain characteristics that we admire (like admiring a certain person's honesty or humility and wanting to emulate it), one should do the same for a saint. It should never get to the point that the veneration of that saint become so much that it is glorifying the saint.

(I don't know what sites you went to, but I think this is a wonderful example of a prayer that incorporates the saint well into the prayer: http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/novenas/p00063.htm)
I will admit that there are some prayers (like the Morning Consecration to Mary on this page http://www.catholic-pages.com/prayers/other.asp) that seem iffy and could very well be considered idolatrous.

In response to your questioning about the Hail Mary.
The Hail Mary goes:
"Hail Mary, full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
If you notice, despite the fact that the prayer is directed towards Mary, the entire prayer worships only Jesus. And it asks Mary only to pray for us.

Technically, I suppose that the prayer is addressed to Mary and becomes a prayer to Mary, but it isn't worshipping her. It merely asks for prayer on our behalf as well as calling to our minds the fact that the conception of our Lord was immaculate, and that Jesus is the Grace bestowed upon the world--"full of Grace" vs. "fruit of thy womb" (in French, for "to be pregnant," one can say "etre pleine de bebe" (sorry no accents) to mean "full of baby").

A prayer to a saint should never ask that saint to do anything without the understanding that all that the saint can do is pray for us to God, that God will grant us the necessary guidance needed for dealing with the situation no matter what the result is, and that the saint will do all that he can to intercede on our behalf. "Intercede" hear means, essentially, to pray for us.

I hope I offered some satisfactory answers to your questions. Have a good night, folks! =D
 
cursore said:
in fact many festivals still the same as before Christianity, instead to celebrate a god they celebrate a saint, but for the same thing?c
I'd forgotten about this, but subconsciously I think that's what was causing my confusion. BSS (note both Ss!), you can't deny that there are saints that are equivalent to pagan gods. The assimilation of the goddess Brigid/Bride/Brig in Ireland as Saint Brigit is a good example. Saint Brigit's first miracle was when, as a baby, she mysteriously put out a fire. Brigid is goddess of the fire. (OK, that one's tenuous) Her festival is Imbolc, February 2. St. Brigit's Feast day is February 1. The temple of Brigid held an eternal flame, tended by virgins. Saint Brigit's nuns tended a constant flame in her monastery. Both saint and goddess are associated with the lambing season and the coming of spring. Brigid is the "Sun Goddess Who Hangs Her Cloak Upon the Rays of the Sun". A folk tale tells that Saint Brigit miraculously hung her cloak on a sunbeam to dry. Etc, etc.
 
Saint Brigid was actually a person Tsuyoiko, named for the goddess Brigid by her parents. That certain aspects of the goddess's lore became attached to her name is kind of unfortunate.

. *****

Blue Suede Shoes . It should be remembered that the Bible records a certain bronze serpent styled after the caudeceus (sp?), that which continues to be used in connection with medicine/healing. Israelites turned to venerating the serpent instead of reserving worship for God, so the bronze serpent was destroyed.
 

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