Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?
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Based on genetics the Ghegs and Tosks of Albania are a different ethnicity.
Tosks, IMO being a North-Epirote people....neither Greek nor Albanian.........caught in the 19th and 20th century international game of national politics.
Tosks, IMO being a North-Epirote people....neither Greek nor Albanian.........caught in the 19th and 20th century international game of national politics.
Really?
I know Y-DNA wise they got quite a few difference but what about the autosomal results?
Where's the clustering usually?
Angela
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This is a list of yDna for Albanians by area, but I don't know if it's totally comprehensive. You always have to be cautious with Wiki data, because people with various agendas go in and alter the entries all the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
Of course, yDna levels can vary from valley to valley in mountainous regions, whereas the autosomal dna can be very similar.
This is the only autosomal dna for Albanians that I can remember offhand. See:
Ralph and Coop
"By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping."
"
[h=4]Limitations of sampling.[/h]A concern about our results is that the European individuals in the POPRES dataset were all sampled in either Lausanne or London. This might bias our results, for instance, if an immigrant community originated mostly from a particular small portion of their home population, thereby sharing a particularly high number of recent common ancestors with each other. We see remarkably little evidence that this is the case: there is a high degree of consistency in numbers of IBD blocks shared across samples from each population, and between neighboring populations. For instance, we could argue that the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers was because most of these sampled originated from a small area rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at first assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by, for example, Figure S3".
"This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]...Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis."
"The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
Of course, yDna levels can vary from valley to valley in mountainous regions, whereas the autosomal dna can be very similar.
This is the only autosomal dna for Albanians that I can remember offhand. See:
Ralph and Coop
"By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping."
"
[h=4]Limitations of sampling.[/h]A concern about our results is that the European individuals in the POPRES dataset were all sampled in either Lausanne or London. This might bias our results, for instance, if an immigrant community originated mostly from a particular small portion of their home population, thereby sharing a particularly high number of recent common ancestors with each other. We see remarkably little evidence that this is the case: there is a high degree of consistency in numbers of IBD blocks shared across samples from each population, and between neighboring populations. For instance, we could argue that the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers was because most of these sampled originated from a small area rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at first assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by, for example, Figure S3".
"This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]...Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis."
"The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case."
Angela
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You can't. This is totally a-scientific thinking.
noUseForAname
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I would say a very slight difference (speaking genetically), although i think we should get the average because current Albanians in Albania are 4 million and at the neighbours over 3.5 million, which includes Kosovo 2 million, Macedonia at least 600,000, east Montenegro, South Serbia, and south west and north Greece 500,000
so we have around 7.5 million currently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_communities_in_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia
Diaspora looks pretty large and will only source the neighbour Countries:
Albanians in current Turkey 1.3 million, The first wave of the Albanian diaspora left for Turkey during the Greco-Turkish population exchange of 1923
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Turkey
Albanians in Italy 260,000, Their population in Italy was around 260,000 inhabitants in 1976,[3] but many today are fully assimilated into the Italian society.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people
By the way i wouldn't say I2a is slavic (if genetically speaking) (R1a Yes)
1: Average of E-V13 of all Albanians from: Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania is 39%
2: Kosovo Albanians 47.5%
3: Albanians from Macedonia 39%
4: Albanians from Albania 27.5%
the rest haplogroups are pretty much the same except !2a which has higher percentage by 8% in south Albania, and R1a with higher 4% in south Albania
Here is the E-V13 percentage for specific populations and specific locations.
Very interesting percentage by a specific location
| Population -------------------------- Albanians(Kosovar) | Language ------------ IE (Albanian) | N ------ 114 | R1b ------- 21.10 | R1a ------- 4.42 | I ----------- I1=5.31 I2a2=2.65 | E-V13 --------- 47.37 | J --------- J2=16.7 | G ----- 0 | N --- 0 | T --- 0 | Others ---------------- P[xQ,R1]=1.77 | Reference ---------------------- Pericic2005[3] |
| Greeks (Peloponnese) | IE (Greek) | 36 | — | — | — | 47 | — | — | — | — | — | Semino2004[8] |
| Greeks (South) | IE (Greek) | 46 | 19.6 | 2.2 | 23.9 | 43.5 | — | 6.5 | — | 2.2 | — | Zalloua2008[31] |
| Cantabrians(Pasiegos) | IE (Italic) | 56 | — | — | — | 42.9 | — | — | — | — | — | Cruciani2004[20] |
| Albanians(Macedonia) | IE (Albanian) | 64 | 18.8 | 1.6 | I1=4.5 I2a=12.5 | 39.1 | J1=6.3 J2=15.6 | 1.6 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Battaglia2008[5] |
| Greeks (North) | IE (Greek) | 96 | 14.6 | 18.8 | 12.5 | 35.4 | — | 5.2 | — | 2.1 | L=1 | Zalloua2008[31] |
| Italians (East Sicily) | IE (Italic) | 87 | 20.0 | 2.3 | 5.0 | 29.0 | — | 5.0 | — | 5.0 | — | Zalloua2008[31] |
| Italians (Sicily) | IE (Italic) | — | — | 8.8 | 27.3 | 23.8 | — | — | — | — | Semino2004[8] | |
| Cypriots | IE (Greek) | 45 | 9.0 | 2.0 | — | 27.0 | — | — | — | — | — | Rosser2000[13] |
| Italians (South) | IE (Italic) | 68 | 25.0 | 3.0 | 6.0 | 26.0 | — | 15.0 | — | 3.0 | — | Zalloua2008[31] |
| Albanians | IE (Albanian) | 55 | 18.2 | 9.1 | I1=3.6 I2a=14.5 I2b=3.6 | 27.5 | J1=3.6 J2=20.0 | 1.8 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Battaglia2008[5] |
| Greeks | IE (Greek) | 84/92 | — | — | — | 21.0 | 6.5 | — | — | — | — | Semino2004[8] |
| Greeks (Macedonia) | IE (Greek) | 57 | 14.0 | 12.3 | I1=8.8 I2a=21.0 | 22.9 | J1=1.8 J2=14.1 | 1.8 | — | 1.8 | — | Battaglia 2008[5] |
| Ashkenazi Jews | IE (Germanic, West) | 79 | — | 12.7 | — | 22.8 | 43.0 | — | — | — | — | Nebel2001[9] |
| Serbs (Bosnia) | IE (Slavic, South) | 81 | 6.2 | 13.6 | 40.7 | 22.2 | 9.9 | 1.2 | 6.2 | 0.0 | — | Battaglia2008[5] |
| Aromuns(Kruševo, Macedonia) | IE (Italic) | 43 | 27.9 | 11.6 | 20.9 | 20.9 | 11.6 | 7.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Bosch2006[4] |
| Bulgarians | IE (Slavic, South) | 127 | 11.0 | 17.3 | 27.5 | 19.7 | 18.1 | 1.6 | — | 0.8 | — | Karachanak2009[17] |
| Greeks (Thrace) | IE (Greek) | 41 | 12.2 | 22.0 | 19.5 | 19.5 | 19.5 | 4.9 | — | — | — | Bosch2006[4] |
| Sephardic Jews | Afro-Asiatic (Semitic) | 78 | 29.5 | 3.9 | 11.5 | 19.2 | 28.2 | — | — | — | — | Nebel2001[9] |
| Italians (West Sicily) | IE (Italic) | 125 | 27.0 | 2.4 | 11.0 | 19.0 | — | 13.0 | — | 3.0 | — | Zalloua2008[31] |
| Minorca islanders | IE (Italic) | 37 | 73.0 | 2.7 | 2.7 | 18.9 | — | 0.0 | — | 0.0 | — | Zalloua2008[31] |
| Aromuns (Štip, Macedonia) | IE (Italic) | 65 | 23.1 | 21.5 | 16.9 | 18.5 | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Bosch2006[4] |
| ethnic Macedonians | IE (Slavic, South) | 211 | 11.4 | 14.2 | 31.3 | 18.0 | 16.0 | 3.8 | 0.5 | 1.9 | L=0.5 | Noveski2010[34] |
| Aromuns(Dukasi, Albania) | IE (Italic) | 39 | 2.6 | 2.6 | 17.9 | 17.9 | 48.7 | 10.3 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Bosch2006[4] |
| Serbs | IE (Slavic, South) | 179 | 4.5 | 14.5 | 48 | 17.3 | 5.6 | 2.2 | 3.3 | — | L=0.6 | Mirabal,V.2010[39] |
| Portuguese (South) | IE (Italic) | 57 | 56.0 | 2.0 | — | 17.0 | — | — | — | — | — | Rosser2000[13] |
| Romanians(Ploieşti) | IE (Italic) | 36 | 8.3 | 5.6 | 38.9 | 16.7 | 19.4 | 8.3 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Bosch2006[4] |
| Gagauz(Kongaz) | Altaic (Turkic) | 48 | 10.4 | 12.5 | 31.3 | 16.7 | 8.3 | 10.4 | 4.2 | 6.3 | — | Varzari2006[27] |
| Italians (Calabria) | IE (Italic) | 32.4[2] | — | 5.4[6] | 16.3[3] | 24.6[8] | — | — | — | — | ||
| Aromuns(Andon Poci, Albania) | IE (Italic) | 19 | 36.8 | 0.0 | 42.1 | 15.8 | 5.3 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | — | Bosch2006[4] |
| Italians (Apulia) | IE (Italic) | — | — | 2.6[6] | 13.9[8] | 31.4[8] | — | — | — | — | ||
| Italians | IE (Italic) | — | 2.7[16] | — | 13.0[13] | — | — | — | — | — |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations
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noUseForAname
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I think this is actually the opposite because Albanians from Kosova (gheghs) have the highest E-V13 in the region 47.5%, that being said E-V13 is very high especially in West Macedonia, north and South Greece, also very high at Peloponnese area, and also quite high especially in south Italy and Sicily. (see my above post with table)
However to understand E-V13 you should read a lot and there are some good facts at this site....
For more quality info based on dna facts and scientific papers (not history nor any kind of nationalism)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ixtures-in-Europe-Please-post-your-data/page6
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Ancient-Greeks-would-their-DNA-be-E-V13/page9
noUseForAname
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I have the same issue with Yetos too, he never sources studies and more than 90% are all of his opinions and not based on sources.
He is everywhere in my thread and this has started to be very annoying lately.
ukaj
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ukaj
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BalkanPower
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im gheg albanian so i can tell you...
There is not a big difference but there is one. A lot of tosk albanians tend to be dinaric/mediterenian while gheg albanians are predominantly dinaric. in dna results you can see that ghegs were more isolated and strict when it came to interracial marriage than tosks. ghegs are taller and paler (me and a lot of my cousins are 6ft and more), while tosk albanians seem to be shorter
There is not a big difference but there is one. A lot of tosk albanians tend to be dinaric/mediterenian while gheg albanians are predominantly dinaric. in dna results you can see that ghegs were more isolated and strict when it came to interracial marriage than tosks. ghegs are taller and paler (me and a lot of my cousins are 6ft and more), while tosk albanians seem to be shorter
Dibran
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E-V13 is definitely Pelasgian I believe. But it is not indoeuropean. Therefore the language/culture bearers of our people most likely arrived with R1b folk. Due to Gheg clan system, it allowed E-V13 to flourish causing a founder effect, at least for E-V13 in Albanians.
There is no way Pelasgians spoke Albanian. It just means Albanians like other peoples migrating to the region, assimilated the native farming peoples.
Most Ghegs are descended from pre-Albanian natives.
Pelasgians as I understand predate Greeks Illyria Macedonians Albanians Slavs etc.
Dibran
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With exception Of Malesi e Madhe, I can't say most Ghegs are pale and tall.
It just seems due to the high mountains and altitudes that a Rosey white complexion and tall stature would be more common.
Outside of Malesor the only tall Albanians I have met are from Prishtina and Dibra Madhe.
At least personal experience wise.
I'm a Gheg from Diber. And my mother from Puka in Malesi( though she is descended from Cameria),
And the men in my family are no taller than 5"11 and no shorter than 5"8.
We have been in Diber Vogel for 300 years, and migrated from Mirdita.
Dibran
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I think the problem stems from an intense obsession with the past. It's something shared by all Balkan peoples. It's what fuels their very inferiority complexes. Everyone thinks they belong to an ancient kingdom that predates the rest of their neighbors. Just so one can claim one piece of land as their own.
Sadly in many a case such as these, genetics seems to cause a hinderance rather than an enlightening.
If this research has shown me anything, it's that much of the balkans is a mixed bag. People forget nationalism is rather a recent development in human history.
It's merely religion and language that causes these people to hate so intensely. I mean I even meet Albanian christians who call themselves Greek or who say they hate Muslim Albanians. I have met Muslim Albanians who glorify Turks and despise christians. I have met Albanians who glorify their culture to a sort of godly status while denouncing all religion. I have met Albanians(like myself) who practice their faith to some degree yet do not discriminate against others of different beliefs. So long as Justice and equality is maintained.
Yet this is something Greeks Serbs Macedonians Montenegrins etc all do too.
Hence, why Serbs massacred other Slavs(Bosnian/Croat). It comes down to nationalism/religion.
My uncle once threw a beating to a Montenegrin Albanian who boasted about killing Albanians in Kosovo. The mental mind ****ery is all over the balkans. Tribalism is not going to last. And the true stability and peace of the regions will only come when the very people causing the decay are silenced. Only time and cooperation will heal that part of the world.
It's like anything else, extremity breeds chaos. There's a fine line between appreciating your culture and deifying it to the detriment of all others.
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Apsurdistan
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The Balkans are a very diverse and mixed place and it's the oldest part of Europe, this is a fact. So it's not that strange you have a lot of territorial pissing contests. It's not some genetic hatred we have for one another, it's basically all politics and bickering over history.
From my experince Balkan people in diaspora get along with each other very well, regardless of ethnicity. Here in the states I've had Albanian friends, Kosovar Albanias, Bosniak, Croats, Serbs. None of them hate each other to the contrary they're always friendly and respectful and get along real well. It's like we know we're from the same region and we share similar cultures and customs and that brings us closer. Even religion doesn't create obstacles. It's a shame we can't get along better in our native lands. I blame politics for that and difficult economic conditions and a lot of propaganda. The current nationalism and racism has spread like a plague in Balkans especially since the late 80's and most of the people got nothing positive from it, only a very small percentage capitalized on it.
From my experince Balkan people in diaspora get along with each other very well, regardless of ethnicity. Here in the states I've had Albanian friends, Kosovar Albanias, Bosniak, Croats, Serbs. None of them hate each other to the contrary they're always friendly and respectful and get along real well. It's like we know we're from the same region and we share similar cultures and customs and that brings us closer. Even religion doesn't create obstacles. It's a shame we can't get along better in our native lands. I blame politics for that and difficult economic conditions and a lot of propaganda. The current nationalism and racism has spread like a plague in Balkans especially since the late 80's and most of the people got nothing positive from it, only a very small percentage capitalized on it.
Dibran
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I agree with much of what you mention. Sadly(im not advocating for abolishing religion) religion is one of the biggest problems. Its no wonder that historically most disputes between balkan peoples have been of a religious nature. Really, nothing but religion separates Bosnians from Serbs. That is why Serbs butchered Bosnian men women and children. Of course as you say, politics and personal agendas play a big role, as most people follow their leaders blindly.
For instance(being Albanian), many Albanians I encounter who identify with Greek orthodoxy, have expressed their disdain and hate for muslim Albanians. Honestly cant tell on what grounds, because most of our people are godless. It is evident however, that balkan countries are either far right wing, or have some type of religious institution propagating shit to these people.
During the population exchange between Greece and Turkey, Greece only took orthodox folk, calling them Greek. They forgot some of their brothers in the black sea coast of Turkey. Romaika speaking Greek Muslims.
You would think they would want to preserve a dying classical greek dialect, but they instead considered them turks and left them with Turkey.
This is the problem with Balkan peoples. They are still in the middle aged clan system. What the Balkans need is a separation of church and state. A lingua franca(I would say English) where they can communicate and do business, whilst maintaining their regional languages and dialects. With an open system of freedom, no one would impede on another. Rather than one balkan union, it should function as a loose federation, whereby a council representing the interests of all peoples is appointed to ensure peace and stability.
Tribal mentalities would need to be quelled. Its just inevitable on the course to progress. The future has no place for minds of the past. Only when we reach this state could we consider joining the rest of Europe. Lest we pollute it further.
The reason why Balkan union doesn't work, is because it usually heavily dominated by one group, forcing their culture and language down anothers throat(Yugoslavia). The reason America works(not counting recent events leading to the decline of peoples mental capacity), is due to an open cultural system. It welcomes change, and input. It has the established language of its country, but does not force name changes, or forbid the people practice of their religion(within reason), or maintenance of their culture/language.
For instance this can be seen in Croatia, where Albanians since the 1400s migrated. They have equal rights, and preservation of their language. Their government even went out of their way to fund schools to teach and preserve a dying Dalmatian dialect of Albanian. No problem..
Italy, you have Arbereshe who still have equal rights and language. No problem. However, in Macedonia, there are problems. It really comes down to us learning to live and let live. All the "demons" balkan people fear, are things they have no way of knowing could happen. So instead, they feed their fears and hatreds, and all act based upon fear. The balkans(while it wont happen over night) needs to step out of the dark ages. They will find this "peace" that they were searching for is very attainable with cooperation and compromise. Working to benefit each other. Until they stop thinking they are ancient and everyone else an intruder, they will still keep butchering each other. It really doesnt matter how old the place is. All nations have come and gone. Ours will be no different. History is in constant change and flux. It cannot be stopped.
The root problem of all conflict is ignorance. When we stand for justice and eschew evil, then we can think about moving forward as a peoples in the world.
LABERIA
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Where do you live Dibran? Because here in Albania we don't have this kind of problems between religions.
BTW, the war in ex-Yugoslavia, was not a religious war.
Dibran
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I wasn't specifically speaking about Albania regarding religion. Albania is a corrupt country nonetheless. All the balkans is. If they weren't, their people wouldn't be predominantly poor without education or increased standard of living.
I live in the United States. Not a religious war? Not from Kosovar Albanians I have spoken too. Unless of course our own people are lying.
I have heard reports that Milosevic ordered orthodox christians to paint crosses on their doors(so that they would be left alone).
Additionally they kept Bosnians in ghettos. Especially Muslim Bosnians. One Bosnian survivor I spoke to mentioned that It was not uncommon to find soldiers/tanks with the Greek flag in Sarajevo.
I have also heard reports from others that Greeks helped Serbs in the war. Do they have the same culture? Language? No they do not. But they do boast about an orthodox brotherhood.
Even Russian and Ukrainian orthodox christians fought in Kosova.
My mothers family were there, some relatives went back to fight(my moms side that came from Kosova). I believe "Muslim Dog" was the term used when they butchered my mothers nephew(just a baby).
You forget. A lot of the bs Milosevic was spewing was religious. Their claim to Kosovo because of their history of churches. Bla bla. Now you have Saudi Arabia pouring money into Kosova(when they didn't even lift a finger to help refugees during the war), and radicalizing them. My friend went last year and noticed it.
The whole Balkans is a shitfest. Any wonder why those who moved to the states never went back?
That was the plan for my family at least. Once the borders reopened. Yet when they saw the quality of living was no where near what they enjoy here, they stayed. Even my brother in law from Tepelena came here to work and decided to stay after meeting my sister.
All those countries operate from the Stone Age. There's no reason they can't move forward. But everyone of us believes we are some ancient people with claim to all the land. Senseless blood spilled by animals for feelings of Grandeur.
All the balkans need to work together. Otherwise this constant back and forth of corruption and bloodshed will never change.
LABERIA
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Of course you was talking about Albania regarding religion. Are this your word:
?
For this reason i asked you:
Now, i insist again. Can you elaborate this your theory about the problems between this many Albanians Orthodox of Greek rite and Muslim Albanians, using your words, about this disdain and hate?
BTW, the theory that the war in ex-Yugoslavia was a religious war, is part of serb propaganda. They want to justify their crimes playing the card of religion.
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