Italian-Cline explained in two PCAs

[Jovialis]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771524236433068044

This is the speculation I perhaps put the most stock into.

 

[Vitruvius]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771524236433068044

This is the speculation I perhaps put the most stock into.

I fully agree. I'm on the exact same page with you here.

 

[Vitruvius]

This ethnographic map of Italy you posted is a really nice one. I hadn't seen this until now. Too often I see the migratory transalpine celts overrepresented on these types of maps as if there was some sort of population replacement of Golaseccian and Etruscan descended Italians. This is a lot more accurate. The only thing I would probably change is adding an area for the Italic Histri in Istria and connecting their lands to that of the Veneti on the Adriatic.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Jovialis: Thanks for the map, I agree with Vitruvius, it clearly lays out the peoples who where present before complete Romanization (Latinization) of Italy and the start of the 1st Punic War.

Looking at that Map, I am going to go back and look at the Himera ancient Sicily paper. In particular, see how those Sicani samples plot now given more recent data. BTW, have you ever run those Himera samples on Admix tools. If not no worries.

 

[Francesco]

This is my idea as well. Then you could add some admixture from later era (imperial and eraly medieval), but the bulk seems to be linked to Iron Age populations

 

[torzio]

The Map of Italy is in error, the celts never reached the sea ( and still did not reach it even when the Romans built Aquilenia in Friuli ) veneti lands bordered western modern slovenia and where neighbours to the illyrinas to their east and to their south

why is the Veneti and Apuli in one "union" ?

Below is a later map, but it shows 2 x Venetic tribes the Catari and the Catuli and also the illyrian tribe Subocrini

The Carni was a mixed celtic -illyrian tribe and they where the closest to the adriatic sea

 

[MOESAN]

The Map of Italy is in error, the celts never reached the sea ( and still did not reach it even when the Romans built Aquilenia in Friuli ) veneti lands bordered western modern slovenia and where neighbours to the illyrinas to their east and to their south

why is the Veneti and Apuli in one "union" ?

Below is a later map, but it shows 2 x Venetic tribes the Catari and the Catuli and also the illyrian tribe Subocrini

The Carni was a mixed celtic -illyrian tribe and they where the closest to the adriatic sea

I'm amazed. So this ma you provided is false?
Because it shows Lingones and Senones near the sea, and they were seen at them as Celts tribes (even if we now these maps colour entire areas when in fact the occupation by some newcomers were spotty and unstable.

 

[Vallicanus]

I'm amazed. So this ma you provided is false?
Because it shows Lingones and Senones near the sea, and they were seen at them as Celts tribes (even if we now these maps colour entire areas when in fact the occupation by some newcomers were spotty and unstable.

The Gallic Senones did reach the Adriatic coast but were displaced by the Roman colony of Sena Gallica on the coast.

 

[Jovialis]

I don't know who is doing the labeling over at Harvard, but apparently "France_BA_GalloRoman" makes for a permissible fit with Minoan, with Z scores above 2.00. However... there weren't any "Romans" in the Bronze Age.

Sample ID: I16184

 

[Jovialis]

Interesting...

 

[torzio]

@MOESAN

I was referring to the celts out of Germany ( halstatt celts )

the cenomani and senones are from Gallic France and are not Halstatt celts

 

[Omino]

Interesting...

I told you that Kou samples would also fit
But wth is BA GalloRoman?

 

[MOESAN]

@MOESAN

I was referring to the celts out of Germany ( halstatt celts )

the cenomani and senones are from Gallic France and are not Halstatt celts

OK

 

[Vitruvius]

I don't know who is doing the labeling over at Harvard, but apparently "France_BA_GalloRoman" makes for a permissible fit with Minoan, with Z scores above 2.00. However... there weren't any "Romans" in the Bronze Age.

Sample ID: I16184

Is BA perhaps an acronym for a place name rather than a time period?

 

[Jovialis]

Not sure, but what about this model?

Maybe Czech_EBA_Unetice could be a proxy for Proto-Italic-Celtic?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1780301640186155159

 

[torzio]

Maybe Czech_EBA_Unetice could be a proxy for Proto-Italic-Celtic?

the theory by scholars for about 6 plus years ( coming out of the UK ) is that proto italic-celtic group is really the proto Italic-celtic-illyric group.

it is stated as .....south of modern Czechia these 3 sat from west to east as
Celtic, then Italic, then Illyric

 

[Vitruvius]

Not sure, but what about this model?

Maybe Czech_EBA_Unetice could be a proxy for Proto-Italic-Celtic?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1780301640186155159

My personal take is still that Vatya is the most likely Proto-italic origin based off material culture - or at minimum the largest contributor to what became the Proto-Italic profile. Have you tried a run using any of those samples or perhaps an average? Czech_EBA seems a bit too far northerly from my perspective. I'd also seriously be looking at close contacts with proto-illyric to Torzio's credit. These cultures all seemed to share a common genetic profile and distributed themselves between the northern balkans, po valley and the carpathian basin.