italian genetics

zanipolo said:
as others stated from other studies of this paper:............

The conclusion, that men of the G haplogroup are MESOLITHIC in Europe.

G is concentrated now in the mountains of the Caucasus. And sporadically in the rest of Europe.

Previous orthodoxy was that G's distribution was clinal, radiating from the Caucasus through the Middle East, to Europe, consistent with a Neolithic spread of the "farming" haplogroups.

With recent studies showing:

-G is old
-G is widely distributed and concentrated in refuge/isolated areas from the Alps to the Pyrenees to islands like Sardinia
-G in so many ancient samples

That G was the best candidate for the "original" YC Hg in Europe.

It would make sense that subsequent waves - wave after wave - pushed the marker into the most remote areas, where it survived.

This paper seems to conclude that too. Especially with the age and the close relationship with the G men in remote parts of Germany and remote parts of Italy.

IMO, I agree that G is the first ydna marker in Italy
Click to expand...


I think it depends on the subgroup of G...the NWI Cluster (Cluster #1) in the study appears to be G-L497 and peaks in Tuscany (LaSpezia/Massa) and Veneto (Vicenza and Treviso) plus Foligno and Brescia. If the age estimate is correct...3608 years...that would match up pretty well with the start of the Terramare Culture and from a map of the spread of the later Villanovan culture it compares pretty close.

So G-L497 could possibly be associated with the spread of a branch of the Urnfield culture into Italy which left related people on the other side of the Alps in Switzerland/Austria where we also find a cluster of G-L497 (Many associate this cluster with the Raeti).

Just a thought
 
MMaximus said:
I think it depends on the subgroup of G...the NWI Cluster (Cluster #1) in the study appears to be G-L497 and peaks in Tuscany (LaSpezia/Massa) and Veneto (Vicenza and Treviso) plus Foligno and Brescia. If the age estimate is correct...3608 years...that would match up pretty well with the start of the Terramare Culture and from a map of the spread of the later Villanovan culture it compares pretty close.

So G-L497 could possibly be associated with the spread of a branch of the Urnfield culture into Italy which left related people on the other side of the Alps in Switzerland/Austria where we also find a cluster of G-L497 (Many associate this cluster with the Raeti).

Just a thought
Click to expand...

possible,
but lets remove national borders in this forum as it should be removed
and the ancient G would be united in the alpine areas, in bavaria, tyrol, lombardy, veneto, piedmont, swiss etc ...........and down the peninsula of Italy.....the culture in question would have been shared by all who made contact with it.

G-L497 as you say can be associated with the raeti, but the raeti where neighbours of the vindelici of bavaria, the norici of east austria, the venetics of north-east Italy, the ligurians of north-west Italy. there where 45 tribes of raeti , they where not a small populace.

foligno was ancient southern etruscan lands and brescia was raeti lands, later gallic cennomani tribe people. Is there a possiblility that L497 emerged from the alps?
 
Yetos said:
you know the story.

Anna palaiologos house,
San Giovani Bragora
San Vlassio (Greco Catholic)
san Giorgio de stradioti (dei Greci) ('nazione' cathedrico)
Click to expand...

no, I only know that a palaiologos was part of the byzantine nobility and that once byzantine fell to the ottomans, one of these was made a capitan of the stradiotti in the morea
 
In regards to L ydna in the paper, the 8.2% for north-east Italy did not include anyone from south-tyrol which on its own has between 5 and 7%............so the numbers could be 9% plus
 
zanipolo said:
no, I only know that a palaiologos was part of the byzantine nobility and that once byzantine fell to the ottomans, one of these was made a capitan of the stradiotti in the morea
Click to expand...

correct,
after Con/polis fall,
many of them move West,
some went to Venice, and creted Stradioti (Στρατιωτης)
but was forbiden in Venice for Orthodox, so they had private chappel in Anna's house,
Anna was the last wife of Palaiologos. and later she maried Venitian Mario Kontarini (maybe Contarini).
well she had a personal small church ate her house.




San Giorgio dei Stradioti was build due a law of Venicians according which 'natione' could have have some autonomy.

my point was that we could not count these people, to the same category with Grecani who were in Italy 2500 years,
 
Last edited:
Yetos said:
correct,
after Con/polis fall,
many of them move West,
some went to Venice, and creted Stradioti (Στρατιωτης)
but was forbiden in Venice for Orthodox, so they had private chappel in Anna's house,
Anna was the last wife of Palaiologos. and later she maried Venitian Mario Kontarini (maybe Contarini).
well she had a personal small church ate her house.




San Giorgio dei Stradioti was build due a law of Venicians according which 'natione' could have have some autonomy.

my point was that we could count these people, to the same category with Grecani who were in Italy 2500 years,
Click to expand...

orthodox religion was banned in Venice because the orthodox would not allow the venetian senate to name the orthodox priests that presided in Venice, like they did with every other religion.
Priests where executed in Venice if found to create or be involved in criminal acts or going against the republic.
Armenians had their church, slavs and protestants as well......never an issue....because Venice dictated the clergy for these religions.

even 10 plus excommunication by the catholic church ( pope) would not change the laws of venice
 
clearly there is a lack of Ydna information in NEI

no south tyrol was used

and NO ydna from Friuli

we rely on the 2012 paper which clearly states udine for our numbers
 
Eldritch said:
Extremely outdated nomenclature.
Click to expand...

I do not understand you by your meaning outdated, the paper was released in June 2013. Please explain.
 
I would assume that the 7.1% R1b-U152 in Sicily is associated with the Medieval Lombards from Lombardy
Click to expand...

Medieval Lombards could have contributed to R1-U152 presence in Sicily, but not predominantly.

Don't forget that the ancient population named "Siculi" were problably Italics. The low ratio of R1b-U152 legacy in Sicily is compatible with a penetrations of Italics in South Italy (and Sicily) mailny through military elites that managed to dominate more or less extended territories.
 
According to the generally very low I and R1a frequencies in Sicily (other than in Lombard settled regions) I believe the SICANI where a high R1b % group. The Siculi may have been the colonizing early era Minoan/Mycenean Greeks, at that time probably considered a Pelasgian sea people's group.
 
adamo said:
According to the generally very low I and R1a frequencies in Sicily (other than in Lombard settled regions) I believe the SICANI where a high R1b % group. The Siculi may have been the colonizing early era Minoan/Mycenean Greeks, at that time probably considered a Pelasgian sea people's group.
Click to expand...

Siculi were probably (predominantly) italics, while there is controversy concerning the (predominant) indoeuropean or preindoeuropean origin of Sicani.

What is clear from the R1b-U152 distribution map in Sicily is that this haplogroup increases from east to west, thus suggesting the push westward of original italics populations from the greek colonization, very strong and deep in the east part of the island (where, in fact, high ratio of eastern R1-ht35 is found).
 
What I'm trying to say is that the SICANI where the italics and Siculi where Greeks, as Elymians where Trojans and there where Phoenicians and later arab,Saracen,Norman,Lombard etc. invasions that also minimally altered the island's genetic composition depending on the region.
 
adamo said:
What I'm trying to say is that the SICANI where the italics and Siculi where Greeks, as Elymians where Trojans and there where Phoenicians and later arab,Saracen,Norman,Lombard etc. invasions that also minimally altered the island's genetic composition depending on the region.
Click to expand...

The Sicani/Σικανοί were Iberians - driven from the Ebro when the Ligurians invaded Iberia;

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
The Sicanians appear to have been the next settlers, although they pretend to have been the first of all and aborigines; but the facts show that they were Iberians, driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus in Iberia. It was from them that the island, before called Trinacria, took its name of Sicania, and to the present day they inhabit the west of Sicily.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus - Book I/XXII
The Sicels.....being driven away from every place, they at last prepared rafts at the Strait and, watching for a downward current, passed over from Italy to the adjacent island. It was then occupied by the Sicanians, an Iberian nation, who, fleeing from the Ligurians, had but lately settled there and had caused the island, previously named Trinacria, from its triangular shape, to be called Sicania, after themselves.

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the Liguan Emporion Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro. Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus makes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.

DiGaetano et al 2008 -
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
West Sicily is 30.3% R1b-M269 (122 samples)
East Sicily is 18.4% R1b-M269 (114 samples)
 
There you go; Nobody hit the nail on the head, the SICANI where IBeRIaNs with a probably west European profile (not to mention the Ligures that expelled them)
 
90% of Ancient Greeks in italy came from corinth area, even Ancona had corinthians from syracuse. Corfu had corinthinas from Syracuse...

Unsure if corinthians at that time where Doric or NW-Greeks
 
Gela was founded by colonizers from Rhodes and Crete. From Gela they would then found Agrigento. The first sailors to reach Naples came from the island of Rhodes and founded there a small port called Parthenope. Syracuse was founded by Achaeans, Reggio was founded by Ionians, Elea was founded by Greeks who fled from Phocaea in turkey and the founders of Croton where from Rhypes and of probably Achaean Greek origin. I see much more than just Dorian/spartan/lacaedamonian colonization although there WHERE Dorian colonies in Italy as well of Corinthian/Spartan origin.
 
Nobody1 said:
The Sicani/Σικανοί were Iberians - driven from the Ebro when the Ligurians invaded Iberia;

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
The Sicanians appear to have been the next settlers, although they pretend to have been the first of all and aborigines; but the facts show that they were Iberians, driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus in Iberia. It was from them that the island, before called Trinacria, took its name of Sicania, and to the present day they inhabit the west of Sicily.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus - Book I/XXII
The Sicels.....being driven away from every place, they at last prepared rafts at the Strait and, watching for a downward current, passed over from Italy to the adjacent island. It was then occupied by the Sicanians, an Iberian nation, who, fleeing from the Ligurians, had but lately settled there and had caused the island, previously named Trinacria, from its triangular shape, to be called Sicania, after themselves.

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the Liguan Emporion Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro. Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus makes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.

DiGaetano et al 2008 -
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
West Sicily is 30.3% R1b-M269 (122 samples)
East Sicily is 18.4% R1b-M269 (114 samples)
Click to expand...

What if we give a prize to Nobody1 (at least) as the fastest relevant data hunter on the web?

Nobody1, I like your way of communicating by representing facts (by the way, as on the forum the genetic character traits are discussed: that's very german of you).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 100154 times.

Back
Top