J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Ghurier]

Interestingly, two out of three of our J2-M12 Picene samples (PN91 and PN101), due to their phylogenetic position (Additional file 3: Fig. S10) in between the BA Nuragic and the B

After checking their phylogeny ... some older samples are clearly placed in weird positions, when having no resolution they assume that the samples are basal.

Considering they place ORC samples upstream of theirs ... the samples are at least Z585+
They also place them upstream of I18748, thus upstream of Y15058.
If tracing BA or IA stuff, they will likely be Z597+

The question is, are they placed upstream of Y15058 because of unsufficient resolution or because they are on another branch.
PN91 have only ~25% coverage only, and its around ~9% for PN101.

(Z585+, Z615-) would be "gold" located in Italy ... but most likely, on the Adriatic side of Italy, they are Z597+ sub-lineages.

PS: their placement of ORC007 didn't match YFULL version. I wonder on which SNP they base such placement ? Whereas YFULL placement is based on a good-quality middle-sequence read.

PPS : They place their samples at ORD014 level ... which is weird considering that to my knowledge ORD014 is not confirmed anything deeper than J-L283 ... the fine structure of their phylogeny is "weird".

 

[Trojet]

From the newly published paper The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans we have:

I10206, Crihana-Veche, Moldova_EBA_Yamnaya, 2900-2500 BCE, J-L283

This is the oldest J2b-L283 in aDNA record and IMHO, it leaves no doubt of how it came to the western Balkans anymore.

Grave 12:10 (individual ID I10206)

The grave was situated in the northeastern sector of the mound, 2.80 m away from the central landmark (R.C.), at a depth of 1.65 m. The burial chamber, rectangular with rounded corners and slightly arched sides, was oriented east-west, measuring 1.25 × 1.80 m. Based on the characteristics of the filling of the pit, the arrangement of skeletal remains, and the location of the grave goods, it can be inferred that grave no.10/M.10 was disturbed in ancient times. The skeletal remains were found scattered in different areas of the pit and at different depths.

It was deduced that the deceased was originally placed at the bottom of the pit, with the head oriented to the east. Traces from the plant layer covering the pit bottom were found near and beneath the skeleton. Grave goods: a flint arrowhead of elongated triangular shape with slightly convex sides and a concave base. The artefacts’ length is 2 cm, width 1.4 cm, and thickness 0.5cm.

The skeleton, lacking anatomical connection, is incomplete and poorly preserved. Traces of bright red ochre were identified on all its elements, particularly intense on the skull. Other taphonomic changes observed include cracking, exfoliation (aerial weathering), and marks left by rodent teeth.

Anthropological sex: male.
Molecular sex: male, with an unusual Y-haplogroup J2b2a1 (J-L283).
Biological age at death: about 30 years (young adult).
Pathologies: supragingival calculus; active porotic hyperostosis (cribra cranii).

The skeleton is very robust, with extremely pronounced muscle insertions, with extensive enthesopathic changes on the humerus and femurs. The individual exhibits a very large skeletal stature, at least 181 cm.

Traumas: a perimortem fracture in the middle third of the right clavicle.

The burial must be attributed to Cernavodă-I or Yamnaya cultures.

Interestingly, in the same site and timeframe, there are three R1b-M269 with one of them more specifically assigned to R-Z2103>Z2108.

 

[torzio]

and then this happened ....see map

Starting to think that the later Illyrian tribes spoke a similar language to the Umbri ( who where the sabellics, sabines, Samnites, Volpsi and many others along the adriatic side of Italy )

 

[Ghurier]

I10206, Crihana-Veche, Moldova_EBA_Yamnaya, 2900-2500 BCE, J-L283

It would be quite important to see if he is positive for something deeper than J-L283.

A J-L283* wouldn't favor the same scenarii compared to some deeper clading.
No deeper clading would be poorly informative, as it would fit with nearly all likely solutions for J-L283 early diffusion.
A clading with Caucasian-L283 lineages would be quite interesting, and would be a bit constraining.
Not clading with Tyrrhenian-L283 would also have some significant implications.

Still a bit late to be very informative if only L283, particularly around ~2700 BCE (~900 years after diversification).

 

[Archetype0ne]

It would be quite important to see if he is positive for something deeper than J-L283.

A J-L283* wouldn't favor the same scenarii compared to some deeper clading.
No deeper clading would be poorly informative, as it would fit with nearly all likely solutions for J-L283 early diffusion.
A clading with Caucasian-L283 lineages would be quite interesting, and would be a bit constraining.
Not clading with Tyrrhenian-L283 would also have some significant implications.

Still a bit late to be very informative if only L283, particularly around ~2700 BCE (~900 years after diversification).

I thought we set out the falsification criteria long ago? We still arguing, then we talk about delulu and cognitive dissonance.

Lets face it you had one toe to stand on, the autosomals of the low coverage Nuragic samples. In one week we get 1/500 L283 in BA-IA France and Germany, intermediate Picenes for the Balkan to Nuragic clades, and now 92% Core Yamnaya L283 in Moldova.

What more do you want?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

and then this happened ....see map

Starting to think that the later Illyrian tribes spoke a similar language to the Umbri ( who where the sabellics, sabines, Samnites, Volpsi and many others along the adriatic side of Italy )

We don;t know why they made that map. If they had any real reason to make the migrations that way, than there might have been a R-Z2103 invasion through the Julian Alps. The obvious reason why there is Yamnaya ancestry, it comes from Cetina sea expansion. I would think the R-Z2103 came with J2b and it is likely R-BY250. If it's something else than there would have been a second Yamnaya group that migrated through land as shown on the map.
But the map does not account Beaker ancestry at all. To me it looks like incompetence.

 

[Ghurier]

I thought we set out the falsification criteria long ago? We still arguing, then we talk about delulu.

As expected, it is an admixted sample with local admixture (and ~8% EEF).

Did he get absorbed around Moldova from an EEF population during 4th millenium BCE ?
Did he get brought here from Caucasus ?

Did he expanded with Yamanaya afterward ?
Did he expended before with Copper-age diffusion and got absorbed in-situ ?

When exactly did he split from J-L283 mainline ?

This sample, yet, didn't solves those questions. That's all.
Deeper clading could provide some indications.

When being serious, you don't jump on your favorite solution.
YOU should know that better than anyone else.
When you are so prompt to consider (rightly) that a L283 with purely EEF admixture only need ~200 years to have been admixture cleaned, you should also consider that the same destiny (admixture cleaning) could have arrived to this sample.
It is called intellectual honesty.

Sadly, as usual you forget all scientificity to just root for your favorite solution ... while this sample is far, very far from proving what you think it proves.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Time to update the J2b-L283 map, if Ghurier has no protest.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I thought we set out the falsification criteria long ago? We still arguing, then we talk about delulu.

As expected, it is an admixted sample with local admixture (and ~8% EEF).

Did he get absorbed around Moldova from an EEF population during 4th millenium BCE ?
Did he get brought here from Caucasus ?

Did he expanded with Yamanaya afterward ?
Did he expended before with Copper-age diffusion and got absorbed in-situ ?

When exactly did he split from J-L283 mainline ?

This sample, yet, didn't solves those questions. That's all.
Deeper clading could provide some indications.

When being serious, you don't jump on your favorite solution.
YOU should know that better than anyone else.
When you are so prompt to consider (rightly) that a L283 with purely EEF admixture only need ~200 years to have been admixture cleaned, you should also consider that the same destiny (admixture cleaning) could have arrived to this sample.
It is called intellectual honesty.

Sadly, as usual you forget all scientificity to just root for your favorite solution ... while this sample is far, very far from proving what you think it proves.

Oh!! We are moving on to other research questions now huh? Makes sense, since that* one is all but done and dusted.

Fine by me! We can start by analyzing the paper and which of the three dry-steppe waves L283 was part of. But it seems that is answered by the authors... hmm... Core Yamnaya?

I'll be honest, I was rooting for proto-Yamnaya myself, but oh well. CLV being the key to IE is cool enough.
I wonder who was writing about it earlier? It might have been Polska. Although I think Trojet got the Sredni Stih culture hypothesis half a decade ago already.

Now be a man of your word and recall your mantra over these last two years "Future samples will settle this you poor souls suffering from cognitive dissonance!" Well samples are here.

 

[Ghurier]

Lets face it you had one toe to stand on, the autosomals of the low coverage Nuragic samples. In one week we get 1/500 L283 in BA-IA France and Germany, intermediate Picenes for the Balkan to Nuragic clades, and now 92% Core Yamnaya L283 in Moldova.

What more do you want?

Why are you gathering France and Germany together ?
The truth is, we got very few samples from south germany (I think it is less than 20) where we expect some J-Z597 to be during IA ... and we found one !!!
So, if I follow you, when we find samples where and when I forecast them, it proves me wrong ? Are you that delusional ?
No my dear, when we find sample where I forecast them ... it proves me right !

Intermediates clades in Italy needs to be investigating ... but if Z615-, they would basically indicates something that you don't like ... as it would be a ~3100 BCE segregation involving Italy.
Anyway, I'm not sure you understand the implication of that.
And honestly, those samples are likely Z597+, and are just intermediates because of the resolution.

What I want more ? Data that would invalidate a model.
Yet it is isn't.
It is fun to look at you trying to say that finding a Z597+ in southern germany EIA didn't proves that L283 was in southern Germany EIA .
And at the same time, looking at you trying to claim that finding a L283 around 2700 BCE at one location (nearly 1000 years post expansion) prevent L283 cousins to be in other locations.
That's why deep clading is important to unveil the path.

Just try to be serious, stop only rooting for ideologically motivated solutions.
Lately, you act as a joke ...

PS: Note that I always claimed that a WSH-origin is feasible (not the one I find the most likely still).
I just said that if so, they need to migrate westward fairly early (which didn't prevent some lineage to have stayed behind, in particular the lineage who ended in the Caucasus).
So, you can try as much as you want to modify my claims ... I won't became my claims.

 

[Archetype0ne]

You will find them in South Germany, LBA onwards at the earliest probably around the Rhine, if these people took the Danube all the way to its source then had a walk North West. I could conceive of that, but that is only going to be a fraction of the L283 progenitors in the region, as IMO the Romans might have had a greater impact.

Anyways, I am done with the petty stuff, next time just read the writing on the wall. The cognitive dissonance was you accusing members who have contributed for years of sample bias, when you had 3 samples vis a vis more than a hundred with a clear spacio-temporal steppe cline.

 

[Ghurier]

Oh!! We are moving on to other research questions now huh? Makes sense, since that* one is all but done and dusted.

Nope, the questions I brought here are the one I'm interested to adress for years.
You didn't noticed ? Maybe because you didn't read me.

Fine by me! We can start by analyzing the paper and which of the three dry-steppe waves L283 was part of. But it seems that is answered by the authors... hmm... Core Yamnaya?

??? Are you that unable to interpret data ?
You have a L283 in a given population.
How did he get there ? With which population ? With what movement ?
There is many feasible solutions.

How is this guy related to L283 branch that gave e.g., Z597 ? When is the MRCA ?
This is quite critical to evaluate the path of J-L283s.
The path of J-Z597 ancestors didn't have to go by all his cousins locations !!!

And yes, as I said many time, an ultimate origin in WSH population is feasable. Still it is not the one I find, as of today, the most likely.

Considering L283 expanded around 3600 BCE ... many population movements (and many exists) could have separated clades.
You refusal to considerate that illustrates again that you don't care about science, you just care about rooting for one solution !!!

 

[Ghurier]

You will find them in South Germany, LBA onwards at the earliest probably around the Rhine, if these people took the Danube all the way to its source then had a walk North West. I could conceive of that, but that is only going to be a fraction of the L283 progenitors in the region, as IMO the Romans might have had a greater impact.

Anyways, I am done with the petty stuff, next time just read the writing on the wall. The cognitive dissonance was you accusing members who have contributed for years of sample bias, when you had 3 samples vis a vis more than a hundred with a clear spacio-temporal steppe cline.

You claim that Romans have the greater impact ... yet, we don't see signal in the phylogeny for Z631 or Y27522 (while we see some for Y15058). We also see signal for a lot of other clades affected by Romans.
After, it is your belief, yet you have no sample and no statistical probe favoring such a thing.
Despite this lack of elements favoring your tale ... you are pushing so strongly for it that it shows that you are not running after an analysis of the reality, but after a narrative you want to push.

I said, based on phylogeny that we had an ~IA segregation of clades at Z597 level with a sub-divesity spot in southern-Germany.
I also explained why demographically speaking the Roman displacement can't work, it involves to many clades (to not creates cross-correlation signal) !
And indeed, we find some sample where and when I was forecasting them, with local admixture, involving a long time presence.
The said sample also have a consistent admixture with another 100 CE sample (too old to have time to have been admixture cleaned).

Handle it, I forecasted something, and we found proof. Now, if your cognitive dissonance prevent you from accepting that I was right on this topic, It is between you and you !
But you harm your credibility by letting your emotions influencing that much the interpretation of the data.

Btw, can you give me links to the peer-reviewed publications of the said "contributors" ?
If none, I don't really care about their opinions ... I care about serious statistical analyses.

If you want to go there, considering my publication records about data analysis, I'm the one making authority here !!!
But truth to said, I don't need authority argument, I have statistical probes, and as proved recently, my forecast receive ancient DNA validation.
Again, handle it.

PS: Note that I will reiterate about one claim : your desire of having L283 as a ~2000 BCE migrant from the steppe have 0% to unfold as correct !
Then, please just stop to creates false claim I never made ! That is very annoying, and it either challenge your comprenhension habilities or your intellectual honesty !

 

[Archetype0ne]

Aye mate, I've read enough of your gibberish over the past few years, do me a favor and go and read the paper now.

 

[Ghurier]

Aye mate, I've read enough of your gibberish over the past few years, do me a favor and go and read the paper now.

As usual, when you can't impose your opinions, you become insulting.
Of us, I think I'm the only one who published peer-reviewed papers (related to data analysis).

This is the main difference, I'm a real data-analysis expert with a significant publication record.
You are a random on internet trying to push for his favorite fantasy ... that becomes agressive as soon as someone is not bowing on his pet-ideas !

But in fact, you should be happy, as I said for years, a 3600 BCE origin of L283 among WSH is not out of the picture !!!
Yet other solutions are still not invalidated by the actual data.
However, a ~2000 BCE origin of Z638 among WSH is laughable ... sry for your narrative.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I think these 2 slides from the same study might hint at an additional J2b L283 Maros sample, perhaps western Yamnaya derived based on what Huban mentioned about the autosomal composition:

View attachment 14624

Far right column above = Bronze Age samples with one J2b L283 (Approx 2100 BCE, assuming Maros). White stripe = J2b L283.

View attachment 14625

Here is Maros on the list above <eastern Hungary>.

You are correct. But it does look like they also have an Iron Age sample that's J2b-L283, it's not in the BA bar graph(because IA is not BA) yet it is plotted in in the steppe admixture graph as 600 BC or so.