Jewish people, where they are from?

[Angela]

I have another question. If it's unlikely there was admixture between Jews and Italians, then how come on Gedmatch AJs and Italians tend to be close, and why did Behar include Tuscans and Abruzzo Italians in the non Jewish group that was closest to AJs?
Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure I'm following you, but, just using myself as an example...

While I don't use gedmatch very much, I do check my countries of ancestry at 23andme every once in a while. For the longest time, I had only about 70 matches, TOTAL. I now have a grand total of 184.

However, I think anything below their 7cM threshold (they picked that number for a reason) is very questionable as to direction of gene flow or even whether it's a real or "phantom" segment in terms of descent. At that level of resolution, all but two of my matches are from northwestern Italy or Tuscany, which is exactly where my ancestors have been for at least the last 500 years, and probably a good 1000 years before that. The only two exceptions are one family of Scandinavian descent, and one of Irish descent. That's it.

I have no full AJ matches at any resolution. I do have a few part AJ ones, but at vary small matches, and, of course, the likelihood is that I match them on their "other" ancestry.

 

[John Doe]

I'm not sure I'm following you, but, just using myself as an example...

While I don't use gedmatch very much, I do check my countries of ancestry at 23andme every once in a while. For the longest time, I had only about 70 matches, TOTAL. I now have a grand total of 184.

However, I think anything below their 7cM threshold (they picked that number for a reason) is very questionable as to direction of gene flow or even whether it's a real or "phantom" segment in terms of descent. At that level of resolution, all but two of my matches are from northwestern Italy or Tuscany, which is exactly where my ancestors have been for at least the last 500 years, and probably a good 1000 years before that. The only two exceptions are one family of Scandinavian descent, and one of Irish descent. That's it.

I have no full AJ matches at any resolution. I do have a few part AJ ones, but at vary small matches, and, of course, the likelihood is that I match them on their "other" ancestry.

Okay, the thing is I'm not talking about 500 or even 1,000 years, I'm talking about pre Christian Italy, so more than 1,600 years at least, that was also before the bottleneck caused the birth of the AJ ethnicity.

 

[Sile]

Okay, the thing is I'm not talking about 500 or even 1,000 years, I'm talking about pre Christian Italy, so more than 1,600 years at least, that was also before the bottleneck caused the birth of the AJ ethnicity.

this might help in your jewish pursuit

https://sites.google.com/site/levit.../2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy

 

[John Doe]

this might help in your jewish pursuit

https://sites.google.com/site/levit.../2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy

Thanks, but I already know that the AJ Levy R1a lineage has a Near Eastern Indo Iranian source rather than a Slavic East European one.

 

[Angela]

Okay, the thing is I'm not talking about 500 or even 1,000 years, I'm talking about pre Christian Italy, so more than 1,600 years at least, that was also before the bottleneck caused the birth of the AJ ethnicity.

It's certainly possible to track gene flow back 1600 years or so. After all, Ralph and Coop's algorithms allowed them to track IBD sharing back to 2300 BC using 2cM segments. See this graphic, for example:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...oa4YlNJups0GOa7xGRD_ueKw&ust=1404185155397089

Unfortunately, Jewish populations weren't included.


Dienekes has done a Fast IBD analysis that includes European Jews, and while unfortunately he didn't include all Europeans, he did include Italian and Balkan and Anatolian populations. This is it:
FastIBD Analysis of Iberia, France, Italy, Balkans, Anatolia, and European Jews:
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

This is the heat map:
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

I don't see anything earth shattering, but there does seem to be a bit going on with Central Italians. (From the information that some project members posted, and from discussions at 23andme when I was more active there, there may be some actual Lazio people in the group, but I do know it's heavily Abruzzi in origin.)

I'll have to take another look at it.

(As a project member, I got individual results, and they bear out what I see at 23andme, which is to say, no real evidence of IBD sharing with Ashkenazim.)

As far as this 500 year limit for 23andme is concerned, it doesn't mean that you don't share IBD segments with people that point to much older connections. Ralph and Coop have proved that.

 

[John Doe]

It's certainly possible to track gene flow back 1600 years or so. After all, Ralph and Coop's algorithms allowed them to track IBD sharing back to 2300 BC using 2cM segments. See this graphic, for example:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...oa4YlNJups0GOa7xGRD_ueKw&ust=1404185155397089

Unfortunately, Jewish populations weren't included.


Dienekes has done a Fast IBD analysis that includes European Jews, and while unfortunately he didn't include all Europeans, he did include Italian and Balkan and Anatolian populations. This is it:
FastIBD Analysis of Iberia, France, Italy, Balkans, Anatolia, and European Jews:
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

This is the heat map:
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

I don't see anything earth shattering, but there does seem to be a bit going on with Central Italians. (From the information that some project members posted, and from discussions at 23andme when I was more active there, there may be some actual Lazio people in the group, but I do know it's heavily Abruzzi in origin.)

I'll have to take another look at it.

(As a project member, I got individual results, and they bear out what I see at 23andme, which is to say, no real evidence of IBD sharing with Ashkenazim.)

As far as this 500 year limit for 23andme is concerned, it doesn't mean that you don't share IBD segments with people that point to much older connections. Ralph and Coop have proved that.

Alright thanks, I understand that even though we're making advancements every day in technology, we still have a way to go. I suppose that the close proximity to Sicilians and South Italians comes first of all from a common EEF/Mediterranean heritage, possibly also through admixture with Greeks (I heard that there were Greek colonies there so that may be another connection) and perhaps some admixture during Roman times, from what you wrote I'm pretty sure you're of Tuscan/North Italian ancestry (correct me if I'm wrong)? I wasn't talking about these, I know that Tuscans and North Italians, unlike South Italians and Sicilians, do have WHG ancestry, I was talking about the proximity to Sicilians/South Italians, but I guess it didn't have to be mainly from Roman times, it could have come from Hellenistic/Bronze age or even Pre Historic times.

 

[FrankN]

Jewish communities in the Rhineland are very old - the community in Worms (Borbetomagus) is said to have been founded in the 5th century BC, i.e. during the first diaspora. During Roman times, Jewish communities were established in many larger towns. The first written evidence on the Cologne community is a regulation issued by Constantine the Great in the early 4th century.
In the Holy Roman Empire, Jews were outside traditional "tribal laws" (Saxon, Frankish, etc.), and regulated by foreigner laws (applying to all merchants from "abroad", irrespectively of their religion) instead. This implied that Jews did not pay their taxes to local nobility or the cities, but directly to the Emperor. Consequently, during the high middle age (10th-13th century), several emperors, as well as territorial bishoprics (Trier, Mainz, Cologne) that also acted as Imperial institutions, actively encouraged Jewish settlement in order to strengthen their tax base, in the case of bishoprics also to counteract the attempt of cities to emancipate from bishop control. They appear to have in particular targeted Jewish communities from areas threatened by the Arab expansion, i.e. Sicily and Southern Italy.

As to the "Abruzzi connection", it might be worthwhile to investigate the fate of the citizens of Lucera: Frederick II in 1224 re-established the city as a "refuge" for Saracenes from Sicily, who were granted religious freedom there. In 1300, Charles II of Naples sacked the city and massacred or exiled most of its inhabitants. I could imagine that the promise of religious freedom did not only attract Muslims, but also Jews to Lucera. After the prosecutions during the first Crusade, the situation of Central European Jews had stabilised - a new wave of pogroms only set in around 1350. So in 1300 the Rhineland might have appeared a safe place to go for Lucera Jews.

On the Khazars: Georgia and Armenia had a sizeable Jewish population, and several Jewish communities there claim to have been established in the 6th/5th century BC, i.e. during the first diaspora. When East Georgia was under Persian rule in the 17th and 18th century, several thousand Jews were forcefully relocated to Iran. As such, genetic similarity between Georgian and Persian Jews should not come as a surprise, and is no argument against a "Khazar connection."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Jews
http://en.shater-izhaka.ru/judaism/georgia/

The economic base of the Khazar empire was intermediate trade between the Arab Kalifates and the Baltic Sea region. Baghdad, the Khazar capital of Ity (Astrakhan) and the Varangian trade hub of Staraya Ladoga were more or less established simultaneously between 750 and 760 AD. Soon after, massive inflow or Arab Denars into the Baltic Sea region commenced that lasted until approximately 990 AD, attested by various coin finds e.g. in Lübeck. It is reasonable to assume that Jews played a major role in this trade network - for their traditional role as merchants, and as Judaism had become the official religion of the Khazar elite. Such a role should have re-inforced (genetic) links to the Jewish community in Bagdad, and also have spread Jewish communities along the main trade routes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trade_Route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks

 

[John Doe]

Jewish communities in the Rhineland are very old - the community in Worms (Borbetomagus) is said to have been founded in the 5th century BC, i.e. during the first diaspora. During Roman times, Jewish communities were established in many larger towns. The first written evidence on the Cologne community is a regulation issued by Constantine the Great in the early 4th century.
In the Holy Roman Empire, Jews were outside traditional "tribal laws" (Saxon, Frankish, etc.), and regulated by foreigner laws (applying to all merchants from "abroad", irrespectively of their religion) instead. This implied that Jews did not pay their taxes to local nobility or the cities, but directly to the Emperor. Consequently, during the high middle age (10th-13th century), several emperors, as well as territorial bishoprics (Trier, Mainz, Cologne) that also acted as Imperial institutions, actively encouraged Jewish settlement in order to strengthen their tax base, in the case of bishoprics also to counteract the attempt of cities to emancipate from bishop control. They appear to have in particular targeted Jewish communities from areas threatened by the Arab expansion, i.e. Sicily and Southern Italy.

As to the "Abruzzi connection", it might be worthwhile to investigate the fate of the citizens of Lucera: Frederick II in 1224 re-established the city as a "refuge" for Saracenes from Sicily, who were granted religious freedom there. In 1300, Charles II of Naples sacked the city and massacred or exiled most of its inhabitants. I could imagine that the promise of religious freedom did not only attract Muslims, but also Jews to Lucera. After the prosecutions during the first Crusade, the situation of Central European Jews had stabilised - a new wave of pogroms only set in around 1350. So in 1300 the Rhineland might have appeared a safe place to go for Lucera Jews.

On the Khazars: Georgia and Armenia had a sizeable Jewish population, and several Jewish communities there claim to have been established in the 6th/5th century BC, i.e. during the first diaspora. When East Georgia was under Persian rule in the 17th and 18th century, several thousand Jews were forcefully relocated to Iran. As such, genetic similarity between Georgian and Persian Jews should not come as a surprise, and is no argument against a "Khazar connection."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Jews
http://en.shater-izhaka.ru/judaism/georgia/

The economic base of the Khazar empire was intermediate trade between the Arab Kalifates and the Baltic Sea region. Baghdad, the Khazar capital of Ity (Astrakhan) and the Varangian trade hub of Staraya Ladoga were more or less established simultaneously between 750 and 760 AD. Soon after, massive inflow or Arab Denars into the Baltic Sea region commenced that lasted until approximately 990 AD, attested by various coin finds e.g. in Lübeck. It is reasonable to assume that Jews played a major role in this trade network - for their traditional role as merchants, and as Judaism had become the official religion of the Khazar elite. Such a role should have re-inforced (genetic) links to the Jewish community in Bagdad, and also have spread Jewish communities along the main trade routes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trade_Route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks

Interesting, I'm no expert but I suppose it makes sense.

 

[Angela]

Jewish communities in the Rhineland are very old - the community in Worms (Borbetomagus) is said to have been founded in the 5th century BC, i.e. during the first diaspora. During Roman times, Jewish communities were established in many larger towns. The first written evidence on the Cologne community is a regulation issued by Constantine the Great in the early 4th century.
In the Holy Roman Empire, Jews were outside traditional "tribal laws" (Saxon, Frankish, etc.), and regulated by foreigner laws (applying to all merchants from "abroad", irrespectively of their religion) instead. This implied that Jews did not pay their taxes to local nobility or the cities, but directly to the Emperor. Consequently, during the high middle age (10th-13th century), several emperors, as well as territorial bishoprics (Trier, Mainz, Cologne) that also acted as Imperial institutions, actively encouraged Jewish settlement in order to strengthen their tax base, in the case of bishoprics also to counteract the attempt of cities to emancipate from bishop control. They appear to have in particular targeted Jewish communities from areas threatened by the Arab expansion, i.e. Sicily and Southern Italy.

As to the "Abruzzi connection", it might be worthwhile to investigate the fate of the citizens of Lucera: Frederick II in 1224 re-established the city as a "refuge" for Saracenes from Sicily, who were granted religious freedom there. In 1300, Charles II of Naples sacked the city and massacred or exiled most of its inhabitants. I could imagine that the promise of religious freedom did not only attract Muslims, but also Jews to Lucera. After the prosecutions during the first Crusade, the situation of Central European Jews had stabilised - a new wave of pogroms only set in around 1350. So in 1300 the Rhineland might have appeared a safe place to go for Lucera Jews.

On the Khazars: Georgia and Armenia had a sizeable Jewish population, and several Jewish communities there claim to have been established in the 6th/5th century BC, i.e. during the first diaspora. When East Georgia was under Persian rule in the 17th and 18th century, several thousand Jews were forcefully relocated to Iran. As such, genetic similarity between Georgian and Persian Jews should not come as a surprise, and is no argument against a "Khazar connection."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Jews
http://en.shater-izhaka.ru/judaism/georgia/

The economic base of the Khazar empire was intermediate trade between the Arab Kalifates and the Baltic Sea region. Baghdad, the Khazar capital of Ity (Astrakhan) and the Varangian trade hub of Staraya Ladoga were more or less established simultaneously between 750 and 760 AD. Soon after, massive inflow or Arab Denars into the Baltic Sea region commenced that lasted until approximately 990 AD, attested by various coin finds e.g. in Lübeck. It is reasonable to assume that Jews played a major role in this trade network - for their traditional role as merchants, and as Judaism had become the official religion of the Khazar elite. Such a role should have re-inforced (genetic) links to the Jewish community in Bagdad, and also have spread Jewish communities along the main trade routes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trade_Route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks

Thanks for the links, FrankN. Do you have a citation for the proposition that the southern Italian Jewish communities were specifically solicited as a source of migration for Germany? I ask because the hypotheses that I've seen are that the population movement wasn't from the south or Sicily directly to the German lands, but a gradual one up through the Italian peninsula.

FWIW, in my research of my own area, I came across documentation from the early centuries after the invasions of the presence of a Jewish community in the eastern Liguria/northern Tuscany area. (This is doubtless due to the fact that Luni still retained some of its former glory as a trading city.) In 594, for example, Pope Gregory was prompted to rebuke the Bishop of Luni upon receiving reports that members of the Jewish community were still converting their slaves and even free estate workers in contravention of Church law. Although, typically, the Bishop ignored the infraction, there is, a century or so later, no further mention of a Jewish community in the area. Intriguingly, a Bishop of Luni also records that he will be responsible for the purchase of wedding garments for a young Jewish woman who had converted and was to marry a Christian. So, there was at least a little bit of admixture at that time.

See:http://www.scribd.com/doc/175236095...h-Christian-Relations-in-the-Middle-Ages-2007
I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in this issue, although free access is restricted.

By the time you get to the early Medieval period in Germany, I think we're talking about a very different situation, one where the only admixture would have been whatever resulted from rape or those Jews who, through a sense of self preservation, decided to remain part of the Christian community after their forcible conversion. Although, I don't know if at that time they actually would have been accepted into the Christian community. Certainly, in the 20th century converted German Jews, and even half and quarter Jews, Christian in religious observance or not, were still killed. In Spain, conversos were to some degree separated, and the entire concept of the "limpieza" or "purity" documentation rests on the fact that they weren't quite accepted. Of course, there is documentation that once they left Spain some conversos returned to Jewish religious rituals.

Also, I'm aware of the trade links in the east, but is there any documentation of any actual Jewish communities along these trade routes of the kind that we see in the west?

Ed. Lucera is in Apulia, not the Abruzzi, and the Muslim community, mostly warriors and their families, were pretty strictly regulated to that area, as it was question of controlling them. Regardless, the community, and their reprieve, lasted at the most 75 years before they were sold into slavery or exiled. Of course, some might have remained and dispersed, but I don't know why they would all have gone to the Abruzzi. Also, I've never seen any documentation as to a Jewish presence amongst them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_settlement_of_Lucera

From historical sources of a later period, there is evidence for a sizable Jewish community in Sicily, some of whose members dispersed to Calabria when the Inquisition was first instituted in Sicily by its new Spanish rulers. Of the remainder, what little actual documentation I've seen seems to indicate a movement to Muslim territories in the east, which were more tolerant at that time, although I would think some exiles would have made their way to central and eastern Europe as well.

 

[oriental]

One can see that the Jewish revolted against the Romans a lot and they were defeated and taken as slaves to Rome or wherever. In the New testament the Apostles went all over Anatolia and Southern Italy to proselytize among the Jews in the Jewish synagogs. There seemed to be a lot of them. There were so many poor people and slaves a religion of the poor was an attraction. Jews also flourished in the Hellenic community look at the Greek version of the Bible. Look at the Maccabees. They were in the Greek period.

 

[Pax Augusta]

how do you guys explain that Ashkenazim are "smarter" than Sicilians or Greeks, even-though genetically are very similar? (based on number of famous scientists, current average IQ, chess champions etc)

Were Ashkenazim, in their whole history, always smarter than Sicilians (just a regional population, nowadays) or Greeks? I guess not.

Assuming hypothetically that they are, when did Ashkenazim become smarter? If you find when, you'll find the reason why.

 

[LeBrok]

Were Ashkenazim, in their whole history, always smarter than Sicilians (just a regional population, nowadays) or Greeks? I guess not.

Assuming hypothetically that they are, when did Ashkenazim become smarter? If you find when, you'll find the reason why.

What if process was gradual and incremental, without one big event making people smarter?

 

[Aberdeen]

One can see that the Jewish revolted against the Romans a lot and they were defeated and taken as slaves to Rome or wherever. In the New testament the Apostles went all over Anatolia and Southern Italy to proselytize among the Jews in the Jewish synagogs. There seemed to be a lot of them. There were so many poor people and slaves a religion of the poor was an attraction. Jews also flourished in the Hellenic community look at the Greek version of the Bible. Look at the Maccabees. They were in the Greek period.

There were apparently a lot of Jews taken to Italy as slaves by the Romans, but I doubt they had a high reproductive rate or much ability to preserve their culture unless a significant number managed to win their freedom while they were young enough to reproduce and to recreate their culture in a new location, so although I'm not familiar with their history, I'm assuming that the Jews who in settled Jewish communities in Europe during the Roman period were traders and not freed slaves. But the reason I was assuming there might have been a lack of continuity in the Jewish communities in France and the Rhineland is because of the massive disruptions and sometimes wholesale loss of life that occurred during the Dark Age period. I may be wrong about that, but I have to wonder how Jewish communities in the Rhineland would have survived all those upheavals. That's why I had assumed that the Jewish communities in places like Germany and Poland might be in large part made up of immigrants from Russia, whose ancestors originally came from Baghdad and thereabouts. Perhaps that wasn't the case, but there seems to be more information available about Jewish communities in Europe before 600 A.D. or after 1000 A.D. than during the crucial period in between those dates.

 

[Pax Augusta]

What if process was gradual and incremental, without one big event making people smarter?

I agree, process could be gradual. Is it possible to wonder when approximately it started? I'm first asking myself.

From 8th century BC, Sicily was an extension of Ancient Greece. For example, scientist Archimedes was born in Syracuse, modern-day Sicily. While western Sicily had some Phoenician colonies in the same period. Were Ashkenazi already formed as a sub-group of the Jews at that time?

 

[Pax Augusta]

Alright thanks, I understand that even though we're making advancements every day in technology, we still have a way to go. I suppose that the close proximity to Sicilians and South Italians comes first of all from a common EEF/Mediterranean heritage, possibly also through admixture with Greeks (I heard that there were Greek colonies there so that may be another connection) and perhaps some admixture during Roman times,,

I agree with that. The close proximity to Sicilians and South Italians of Ashkenazis is due first to a common EEF/Mediterranean heritage, also through admixture with Ancient Greeks.

Sicily and Southern Italy were known as Magna Grecia (Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς) meaning Great Greece. Greeks settled in Southern Italy about 8th century BC and they were assimilated by Romans starting from 212 BC. Phoenicians also settled in Western Sicily around 8th century BC and were defeated by Romans on 241 BC. Sicily was a typical Mediterranean melting pot since antiquity.

from what you wrote I'm pretty sure you're of Tuscan/North Italian ancestry (correct me if I'm wrong)? I wasn't talking about these, I know that Tuscans and North Italians, unlike South Italians and Sicilians, do have WHG ancestry, I was talking about the proximity to Sicilians/South Italians, but I guess it didn't have to be mainly from Roman times, it could have come from Hellenistic/Bronze age or even Pre Historic times.

Tuscans are much closer to Northern Italians. In Northern Tuscany are almost the same of Northerns. Tuscans shouldn't considered as separated population from the rest of Northern and Central Italians but I guess they are because in the last decade genetists have been searching for the Etruscan heritage, without finding that much so far. So probably most of the Tuscan samples used for those genetic researches could be even not so representative of the whole region.

 

[LeBrok]

I agree, process could be gradual. Is it possible to wonder when approximately it started? I'm first asking myself.

From 8th century BC, Sicily was an extension of Ancient Greece. For example, scientist Archimedes was born in Syracuse, modern-day Sicily. While western Sicily had some Phoenician colonies in the same period. Were Ashkenazi already formed as a sub-group of the Jews at that time?

I think some of this "smartening up" happened during millennia of farming. Farmers fend for themselves, their individual families and on their own land. On other hand Hunter-gatherers hunt together and always share the spoils of hunt equally. The smart and not so smart get the same amount of food therefore not much of genetic forcing rewarding intelligence of individual. Well, there is some exaggeration on my part, however this process happens much faster in farming communities. Just my observation.

 

[John Doe]

I agree with that. The close proximity to Sicilians and South Italians of Ashkenazis is due first to a common EEF/Mediterranean heritage, also through admixture with Ancient Greeks.

Sicily and Southern Italy were known as Magna Grecia (Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς) meaning Great Greece. Greeks settled in Southern Italy about 8th century BC and they were assimilated by Romans starting from 212 BC. Phoenicians also settled in Western Sicily around 8th century BC and were defeated by Romans on 241 BC. Sicily was a typical Mediterranean melting pot since antiquity.



Tuscans are much closer to Northern Italians. In Northern Tuscany are almost the same of Northerns. Tuscans shouldn't considered as separated population from the rest of Northern and Central Italians but I guess they are because in the last decade genetists have been searching for the Etruscan heritage, without finding that much so far. So probably most of the Tuscan samples used for those genetic researches could be even not so representative of the whole region.

Alright, thanks for the confirmation and the extra info.
As for the origin of the modern Tuscans, I'm pretty sure there was a study that concluded that most Tuscans have European maternal haplogroups, of course, that doesn't represent the entire ancestry, but I reckon that modern Tuscans are pretty much Central/North Italians. A good example would be the Hungarians, traditionally the Hungarians trace their ancestry to the Magyars of the Volga Ural region, but genetically, modern Hungarians seem to be pretty much Central/Eastern European.

 

[AgnusDei]

AJs are a highly endogamous group, and because of that certain characteristics and traits are very common among them.

Evolution weeded out the less unfortunate Ashkenazim that weren't smart enough to survive their persecution in Europe,as a result only the intelligent ones could pass down their genes to the next generation.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I think some of this "smartening up" happened during millennia of farming. Farmers fend for themselves, their individual families and on their own land. On other hand Hunter-gatherers hunt together and always share the spoils of hunt equally. The smart and not so smart get the same amount of food therefore not much of genetic forcing rewarding intelligence of individual. Well, there is some exaggeration on my part, however this process happens much faster in farming communities. Just my observation.

Agree, but I guess that in Sicily and Greece there were also farmers at that time. It explains how farmers began to be smarter than hunter-gatherers, but not how and when Ashkenazis became smarter than Sicilians and Greeks, despite genetically are very similar.

 

[LeBrok]

Agree, but I guess that in Sicily and Greece there were also farmers at that time. It explains how farmers began to be smarter than hunter-gatherers, but not how and when Ashkenazis became smarter than Sicilians and Greeks, despite genetically are very similar.

They are all with long history of farming. In ancient times there were many high achievers: the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Phoenicians/Canaanites related to Jews. Some people think that extra boost of IQ in Jews came from constant persecutions and killing of Jewish minorities. The idea behind this is that rich Jews and their families (being smarter than average) tend to survive paying their way out, while poor can't buy their freedom and are killed. Few episodes like this during last 3 thousand years might be behind heightened IQ.