Kura Araxes Expansion and the Y lines that can be associated with them

[Azzurro]

The Kura Araxes culture was from 3400-2000 BC, looking at Yfull and noticing several bottlenecks, certain lineages seem to expand during the Kura Araxes expansion, the majority are J2a, followed by J1, G and T.

For the J2a lineages there is 8 that fit the expansion, 3 are under the J-Z7671, as J-Y3612, J-Y3620 and J-Y32720, they expand roughly around 4200 ybp and move in a Northwards direction, where it peaks in the Caucasus today and is prevalent amongst Nakh speakers. Then there is J-YP879 under J-FGC15905 which expands around 4400 ybp and is more widespread, its most common amongst Armenians and Anatolian Greeks, has a decent frequency in Southern Italy, and is found at lower frequencies throughout the Mediterranean. Then there is J-Y5009 under J-M319 and J-L210 under J-Z467 which both had large bottlenecks of 5500 years and 7100 years which start to significantly expand during the Kura Araxes expansion, with both having earlier splits in the Levant (Syria, Lebanon and Israel) and Crete. Its possible that J-CTS3261 under J-Z7671 and J-L556 under J-CTS2906 could have been part of the same expansion as J-L210 and J-M319, as J-CTS3261 is found Samaritans and J-L556 is the largest J2a Jewish lineage. Lastly J-Z6254 under J-Z515 and J-Y17494 under J-Z387 these do not have a severe bottleneck and I think it could have originally been a Maykop lineage that possibly got absorbed by the Kura-Araxes Culture and expanded heavily under them as their expansion dates fit with the Kura-Araxes expansion.

For the J1 lineages J-B234 under J-Z1842 which suffered a smaller bottleneck from 8100 ybp to 6500 ybp, the J-B234 lineage expands around 4200 ybp similar to the J-Z7671 lineages, the same occurs for J1-CTS1460 lineages which expand mostly around 4300 ybp and are more widespread around the Mediterranean world, the same is true for J-BY100 lineages.

For the G lineages G-Z7958 which expands around 4500 ybp, though this line could also have been a Hattic lineage instead, the lineage with stronger evidence is G-Z17887 under G-M406 and this more off its modern distribution. The next lineages I would like to personally thank Maciamo for helping me with, which are G-Z17775 under G-L293 which has an earlier TMRCA than the Kura Araxes Expansion but is found in the Mediterranean world (Calabria, Southern Italy). Another two lineages of G-M406 also are good candidates G-PF3293 and G-FGC5089 which are widespread throughout the Mediterranean world as well, in countries such as Turkey, Greece, Lebanon and Italy.

For the T lineage T-P77 being a major lineage coming out of the Kura-Araxes expansion, as most of its lineages expand during the height of the Kura-Araxes culture, seeing that it also found in good frequencies in the Arab world its possible that some T-P77 lineages expanded to Iran and Mesopotamia and got redistributed, while other T-P77 lineages probably expanded westwards.

The Kura Araxes Expansion would have happened a little after the Uruk Expansion which brought J1-P58 lineages, J2b-M205 lineages, J2a-F3133 lineages, J2a-PF5087 lineages, J2a-PF5172 lineages, J2a-PF5174 lineages, T-L208 lineages and T-CTS11451 lineages

 

[IronSide]

Great thread, I think it is time to discuss Kura Araxes.

I used to think that the Minoans were Kura Araxes colonists from Anatolia, because that's what we observe today in modern Cretans, J2a, J1, G2a, and T1a of Caucasian subclades, often with the right TMRCA. I don't know much about the similarity of Minoan pottery or any output of their civilization to Kura Araxes culture materials and sites, but if they were similar why hasn't anyone pointed that out ? In short, is there any archeological evidence that Minoans derived from Kura Araxes like culture ?

 

[IronSide]

Some similarities between Minoans and Indus Valley Civilizations which might indicate a common origin.

http://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2017/03/indus-valley-cultural-elements-in.html

As you can see the writer explains these similarities as a result of a migration from Indus Valley into Crete, but there is no evidence for such movement.

 

[Edward_J]

under z387 did you mean z17949? I didn't see a z17494 under there on y full.

 

[Edward_J]

Thanks for the write up!

 

[Angela]

People have been speculating about these kinds of things endlessly. In terms of Crete, the first archaeologists of the 19th and early 20th century thought it was settled and Minoan civilization developed as a result of migration from North Africa, then Egypt specifically.

You can see where they got the idea as there was clearly trade between the Minoans and the Egyptians, and a lot of influence on Minoan culture from Egyptian culture. However, a study of the ancient mtDna of Crete shows it's basically EN or EEF, although the authors didn't state it that way. I doubt we'll see much ancient Cretan y dna directly from Egypt, although anything is possible. Sometimes, "pots are just pots".

See:
"A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete", Jeffrey Hughey et al
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

There have also been studies positing migration from Anatolia based on modern yDna lineages, but the study is old, and we've been fooled by modern y dna lineage frequencies before. Even if the y is correctly guessed to have arrived from place or culture X, the impact on the whole genome is unknown.

As for the Kura Araxes culture, it was done by about 2000 BC. In some areas, by 2500 BC. Early Minoan is about 2600 BC if I remember correctly. I don't know if it was people from the Kura Araxes culture specifically who went into Crete, or, even if heavily Iran Chl type people did migrate there if they comprised half the genetic signature, or if they were instead very much a minority component, as in ancient Egypt, and they were predominantly a majority Anatolian Neolithic (with some "buried Levant Neolithic, which all such people had) population even in the Minoan Era. Even with ancient y dna we're not going to know that unless someone analyzes and publishes results for Cretan autosomes.

In terms of yDna and Kura Araxes, I believe the only ancient Kura Araxes sample is R1b, so I'd be cautious about all these specific predictions until we get a lot more ancient y and autosomal dna both for Kura Araxes and for Minoans among others.

 

[IronSide]

How do you explain the similarities between the Minoans and Indus Valley people ? all these cant be coincidence, therefore they must have a common origin, but no candidate culture can explain this.

 

[Angela]

How do you explain the similarities between the Minoans and Indus Valley people ? all these cant be coincidence, therefore they must have a common origin, but no candidate culture can explain this.

I'm sorry, but I'm not following. How can we know of similarities between Minoans and Indus Valley people when we don't have analyzed ancient genomes from either group?

I think there's certainly grounds for thinking there was migration from Anatolia into Crete which might help explain the genesis of the Minoan civilization, and those people might have carried yDna J lineages.

Until we see full autosomal analysis of the Minoans and of a lot more Bronze Age Anatolians how can we possibly tell how much impact such migrations, if they occurred, actually had?

Let's assume for the moment that there was a movement to Crete from Anatolia in the Bronze Age, as there was in the Neolithic. The mtDna doesn't seem to have changed much if at all, so, let's assume a largely male migration, unlike in the Neolithic. Let's also assume it was largely J carrying instead of G2a as before, and had a large chunk of Iranian Chl like ancestry. That still doesn't tell us whether it made a big impact autosomally. Look at the southern Levant and most particularly Arabia: it has majority J lineages and yet the Levant Neolithic ancestry far exceeds the Iran Chl ancestry.

We're just going to have to wait and see.

 

[IronSide]

I'm sorry, but I'm not following. How can we know of similarities between Minoans and Indus Valley people when we don't have analyzed ancient genomes from either group?

Culturally I meant.

http://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2017/03/indus-valley-cultural-elements-in.html

 

[Angela]

Culturally I meant.

http://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2017/03/indus-valley-cultural-elements-in.html

I have absolutely no idea who that person is, but most of the things mentioned find their source in the ancient Near East and moved from there in all directions, some into Europe, and some down into India with the Iranian Neolithic farmers.

This is not even academic analysis, much less genetic analysis.

I'd be wary of putting too much faith in random things people post on the internet.

 

[IronSide]

I have absolutely no idea who that person is, but most of the things mentioned find their source in the ancient Near East and moved from there in all directions, some into Europe, and some down into India with the Iranian Neolithic farmers.

This is not even academic analysis, much less genetic analysis.

I'd be wary of putting too much faith in random things people post on the internet.

C'mon Angela !! I don't care who that person is, I put faith in my eyes !!

Both have exposed breasts, hold snakes in both hands, this is no coincidence. As to the author, his analysis is not convincing, he attributes the similarities to India first then spread elsewhere, very nationalistic, no evidence. I just used his article for the pictures really, I was lazy to post all of them, besides he doesn't have the power to forge them, but he pointed out the main similarities between the two civilizations in a neat way.

And sure it could have been neolithic people that spread these in all directions.

 

[Angela]

C'mon Angela !! I don't care who that person is, I put faith in my eyes !!

Both have exposed breasts, hold snakes in both hands, this is no coincidence. As to the author, his analysis is not convincing, he attributes the similarities to India first then spread elsewhere, very nationalistic, no evidence. I just used his article for the pictures really, I was lazy to post all of them, besides he doesn't have the power to forge them, but he pointed out the main similarities between the two civilizations in a neat way.

And sure it could have been neolithic people that spread these in all directions.

Did I ever say there weren't similarities? There are similarities in motifs and symbols all over Eurasia. I could play this game with any two cultures. You should read Jung about archetypes, or Joseph Campbell about myths. Sometimes the similarities are because of the spread of the Neolithic, sometimes the Indo-Europeans, sometimes later cultural diffusion.

The point I was making is that this person knows nothing about the background and history of these things if he's positing a spread from the Indus Valley, and that was your point, wasn't it, or did I misunderstand you? I thought you were saying there was a possible spread from the Indus Valley specifically to Crete, which would be ridiculous. It would have carried ASI with it, of which there is virtually none in modern Crete or southeastern Europe, for that matter.

It gives us no useful data for determining if Kura Araxes migrations which might have spread to Crete or any other places.

 

[IronSide]

No that wasn't my point !! No !! I've been warning anyone checking him not to be convinced by his explanation.

Some similarities between Minoans and Indus Valley Civilizations which might indicate a common origin.

http://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2017/03...ements-in.html

As you can see the writer explains these similarities as a result of a migration from Indus Valley into Crete, but there is no evidence for such movement.

And for the sake of Occam's razor, these similarities are too detailed to be general Jungian archetypes, the best explanation is a relatively recent origin, the similarities between them is analogous to the similar religious and mythical traditions of the Indo-Europeans, that is they are better explained by an original mythology.

like these guys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

 

[LeBrok]

No that wasn't my point !! No !! I've been warning anyone checking him not to be convinced by his explanation.



And for the sake of Occam's razor, these similarities are too detailed to be general Jungian archetypes, the best explanation is a relatively recent origin, the similarities between them is analogous to the similar religious and mythical traditions of the Indo-Europeans, that is they are better explained by an original mythology.

like these guys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

Snake is a very common animal in this part of the world and used in many mythologies throughout the region. Naked breasts, are not that uncommon either, and how would you show fertility goddess? Here are 30 thousand years old ones. Even Christian Renaissance painter were not shy to paint exposed breasts. And there are still cultures on this planet where showing naked breasts in not shame.

Can we say, mentioned above cultures took influence from Paleolithic Europe?

I'm with Angela on this one.

 

[IronSide]

LeBrok, those fat ladies are not holding snakes !! .. just kidding I get your point. The Neolithic expansion could be the common origin I'm talking about, or it could be Kura Araxes.

but what about the other similarities ? I think I'll be forced to post all of them.

Bull leaping

 

[bicicleur 2]

I've always seen the early Minoans as some elite fugitives from the bronze age Levant, but your toughts are as good as mine.

 

[Maciamo]

Azzurro and I have been discussing the potential Kura-Araxes lineages and I encouraged him to start this thread to start a forum-wide discussion.

Some similarities between Minoans and Indus Valley Civilizations which might indicate a common origin.

http://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2017/03/indus-valley-cultural-elements-in.html

As you can see the writer explains these similarities as a result of a migration from Indus Valley into Crete, but there is no evidence for such movement.

Thanks for posting this. It confirms what I have been suspecting for a while, namely that the Kura-Araxes culture influenced both the Minoan Civilisation and the Indus Valley Civilisation. Some of the pictures on that site also make reference to elements of the ancient J2a culture that I had mentioned on the J2 page several years ago, like bull worship and bull leaping. Cattle were domesticated around the border of modern Turkey and Syria, and haplogroups that originated in that region and the southern Caucasus, like R1b-M269, but also probably Kura-Araxes lineages like those mentioned above by Azzurro. It is not surprising that some lineages should be shared between Maykop/Yamna and Kura-Araxes. That includes some R1b and G2a lineages, but even some J2a1 too. When looking at the J2a1 phylogeny, most of branches associated with Kura-Araxes fall under PF5116 (indeed they make up a big share of that tree). But as Azzurro points out there is also Y17949 (not Y17494 as he wrote, that's a typo) under Z387, a brother lineage of L70. I have argued last year that J2a1-Z435 was of Indo-European origin, and Z435 is the direct descendant of L70, under Z387 too. I also think that J2a1-Z387 has a shared Maykop and Kura-Araxes ancestry. In fact it goes well beyond this.

In 2009, I proposed that Maykop people were predominantly R1b and G2a, but may have also carried some minor J2a lineages. In January 2010, I hypothesised that R1b and G2a people sought and settled in metal-rich regions of Europe, which would explain their combined presence in places like the Alps, Wales or Galicia. Over the years I came to suspect that R1b-U152 and G2a-U1 (or more specifically L13) came from Maykop rather than the open steppe, as both ended up around the Alps, and people typically seek environment with which they are familiar. In my History of the Italian people, I identified R1b-U152 (and especially Z56) as the main Italic and Roman lineage, but accompanied by G2a-L13, G2aZ1816, J2b2-L283 and some yet unidentified J2a1 lineage, which I later identified as being Z435. Over the last few months it has become clear that G2a-Z1816 was absorbed from the late Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, as I had suggested. G2a-U1 always had a link to the North Caucasus as it now peaks among the the Adyghe people who live exactly in the Maykop region. If we could now confirm a shared Caucasian origin of J2a1-Z387 (Z435 for Maykop and Y17949 for Kura-Araxes), it would mean that that would be the J2a lineage that accompanied G2a-U1, and by extension also R1b-U152 to Italy! In other words, the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts as well as the Italic/Roman people would be descended predominantly from Maykop rather than Yamna, while other purer R1b tribes like the R1b-L21 that settled Britain and Ireland, the R1b-DF27 that migrated to Southwest Europe, and the R1b-U106 and I2a2a that went to North Germany and Scandinavia came from the western Yamna culture (and possibly also its Kemi-Oba subculture, as I suggested since 2009).

If North Italians have substantial Maykop ancestry and South Italians considerable Kura-Araxes ancestry, it shouldn't be surprising that Italians have more CHG than other Europeans. Yamna people had a lot of CHG (surely through Maykop and lineages like G2a-L13 and J2a1-Z435), but that CHG was quickly diluted by the time R1b tribes reached central Europe around 2500 BCE. It is nevertheless possible that Maykop tribes that presumably settled around the Alps had a bit more CHG to start with. However I think that the biggest share of Italian CHG ultimately comes from Kura-Araxes via the Minoans and the ancient Greek colonisation of South Italy.

 

[Maciamo]

For those of you who haven't been following my updates of the haplogroup pages since last September, here is what I wrote about Kura-Araxes lineages.

Haplogroup J2

A second expansion would have occured with the advent of metallurgy. J2 could have been the main paternal lineage of the Kura-Araxes culture (Late Copper to Early Bronze Age), which expanded from the southern Caucasus toward northern Mesopotamia and the Levant. After that J2 could have propagated through Anatolia and the Eastern Mediterranean with the rise of early civilizations during the Late Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age.

Middle-Eastern and European J2a: from Kura-Araxes to the Greeks and Romans

It is very likely that J2a, J1 and G2a were the three dominant male lineages the Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes culture (3,400-2,000 BCE), which expanded from the South Caucasus to eastern Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia and the western Iran. From then on, J2 men would have definitely have represented a sizeable portion of the population of Bronze and Iron Age civilizations such as the Hurrians, the Assyrians or the Hittites. It is very possible that bronze technology spread from the South Caucasus across the Iranian plateau until the Indus Valley, giving rise to the Harappan Civilisation (see below).

The Minoan civilisation emerged from 2,700 BCE and could have been founded by colonists from the Kura-Araxes culture who would have brought bronze working with them. Modern Cretans have the highest percentage of G2a (11%), J1 (8.5%) and J2a (32%) in Greece (and the highest percentage of J1 and J2a in all Europe for that matter), the three haplogroups associated with the Kura-Araxes culture. Although little data is available at present about deep clades in Crete or Aegean Greece, the parts of Italy that were colonised by Ionic and Doric Greeks, notably Sicily, Calabria and Basilicata, possess substantial percentages of typically Caucasian haplogroups, such as G2a-L297, J1-Z1828 and J2a-L581, as well as considerable levels of Middle Eastern and Caucasian autosomal admixture by European standards. In fact, it seems that many branches of J2a (e.g. M319, Z7671, F3133, Z6046, L581) may have expanded from the South Caucasus from the Chalcolithic onwards. The presence of these haplogroups and admixtures in southern Italy almost certainly represent Kura-Araxes ancestry inherited from Minoan Greeks from the Aegean islands.

The Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particularly strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians played a more decisive role than other peoples. This makes sense considering that they were the first to arrive, founded the greatest number of cities (including Gadir/Cadiz, Iberia's oldest city), and their settlements match almost exactly the zone where J2 is found at a higher frequency in southern Andalusia.

The high incidence of J2a in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. However both the Etruscans and Greeks would have carried many other Y-DNA lineages, including G2a, J1, R1b-Z2103, T1a, and probably also E-M34. J2a levels would have been higher among the Greeks than the Etruscans, and particularly among the insular Greeks that colonised Magna Graecia. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of J2 in the peninsula.Several common Italian J2a subclades are found mainly in the south of Italy (M319, M92, Z467, Z7671, all under L558) and are likely to be of Greek origin. The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). M319, one of the principal J2a1 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%).


Haplogroup T1a

Kura-Araxian expansion during the Bronze Age

The P77 and CTS6507 branch underwent a major expansion during the Early Bronze Age, from approximately 2500 BCE. The phylogeny suggests that this expansion took place from the South Caucasus region, including the Armenian Highlands, and spread in various directions around the Middle East and Europe. The European branch appears to have propagated through a Mediterranean route to Greece, Italy (including Sicily and Sardinia) and Iberia. Historically the Kura-Araxes culture is the best match for this expansion. While the Proto-Indo-Europeans (haplogroups R1a and R1b) were expanding from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe to central and northern Europe and Central Asia, the Kura-Araxes people, on the other side of the Caucasus, also developed a contemporary Bronze Age culture that expanded across West Asia, and possibly as far east as Pakistan and India. The Minoans, Europe's oldest proper civilisation (as opposed to archeological culture), could be an offshoot from that Kura-Araxes expansion. Kura-Araxian men would have belonged primarily to Y-haplogroup J2a1, but also to a lower extent to T1a-P77, R1b1-L278 and J1-L858.


Haplogroup G2a

Kura-Araxes branches of G2a

Around the same time as the Indo-European ethnogenesis was taking shape in the Pontic Steppe during the Maykop (3700-3000 BCE) and Yamna (3500-2300 BCE) cultures, another Early Bronze Age society was developping on the other side of the Caucasus: the Kura-Araxes culture (3400-2000 BCE). Although the Kura-Araxes people were less militaristic and more sedentary, they also underwent a major expansion, first west to Anatolia, south to the Fertile Crescent and east toward the Iranian plateau, possibly all the way to Pakistan, where they would have influenced the Indus Valley Civilisation. It is like that the descendants of the Kura-Araxes culture eventually colonised Greek islands, including Crete, where they would have founded the Minoan Civilisation (2600-1100 BCE), Europe's oldest civilisation.Based on the modern phylogeny, Kura-Araxes people are thought to have belonged primarily to Y-DNA haplogroups J2a1 (the largest lineage), J1a2-Z1828, T1-P77, G2a1 (L293, aka FGC7535 or Z6552) and G2a2b1a (M406). Other minor haplogroups may have been present too, including the now rare R1b1a-L388, which was identified in one Kura-Araxes individual by Lazaridis et al. (2016). During the Classical Antiquity ancient Greek islanders, who were descended in great part from the Minoans, colonised southern Italy, bringing their Kura-Araxes lineages with them.

The oldest known G-L293 sample is a Neolithic man from western Iran. Nowadays, G-L293 is the most common G2a clade in the central and northern Caucasus, peaking at 64% of the population in North Ossetia. The Kura-Araxes culture expanded from the South Caucasus, where L293 is considerably lower (1% in Armenia and eastern Turkey). It is otherwise found at low frequencies across Turkey, northwest Iran, northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon (i.e. the further extent of the Kura-Araxes culture proper), but also in Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, southern Italy (especially in Sicily) and Corsica. L293 is conspicuously absent from Sardinia and the northern half of Italy, which excludes both a Neolithic and an Indo-European origin.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Maciamo, is it possible that the Levantine Early Bronze Age has also an origin in Kura-Araxes?
I've read there is a paper coming about the Calcolithic Ghasulian Levant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassulian
and these people would not be related to the Levantine Early Bronze Age

In the Levant Afro Asiatic language was spoken and Semitic since the bronze age.
Crete though was not Semitic neither Afro Asiatic.

J2b1-PF7331 and J1a2b-Z2324 have been identified in the Levantine Early Bronze Age

Early Bronze	Jordan	Ain Ghazal [I1706 / AG 98_2]	F	2490-2300 BCE			X2m	Lazaridis 2016
Early Bronze	Jordan	Ain Ghazal [I1730 / AG 84_30]	M	2489-2299 calBCE (3925±31 BP)	J (xJ1,J2a, J2b2a) [J2b1-PF7331]	CTS687+, CTS1250+, PF4513+, F1167+, F1181+, PF4519+, PF4521+, PF4524+, FGC3271+, PF4530+, F1826+, CTS4349+, CTS5280+, F2114+, F2116+, CTS5628+, CTS5678+, CTS7229+, F2502+, CTS7738+, F2769+, CTS8974+, F2817+, F2839+, CTS10446+, F3119+, F4299+, S22619+, PF4591+, F3176+, FGC1599+, YSC0000228+, CTS10858+, CTS11291+, L778+, CTS11571+, CTS11750+, PF4619+, CTS12047+ (M267-, L152-, L212-, L283-)	R0a1a	Lazaridis 2016; [additional analysis of haplogroup by Chris Rottensteiner ]		I1730 Levant Bronze Age J2b-L282(xJ2b2) calls
Early Bronze	Jordan	Ain Ghazal [I1705 / AG 98_1]	M	2198-1966 calBCE (3690±35 BP)	J1 (xJ1a)	M267+ (M365.1-)	H14a	Lazaridis 2016		I1705 Levant Bronze Age J1a2b-Z2324 calls

 

[Odysseus]

So many lies