Language trees support hybrid model for origin of Indo-European languages

Omino said:
Logkas04(the older one) has 50% Logkas02 has about 30-35% steppe
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Yes, Logkas02 has around 28% and Logkas04 has around 46%. We see that Steppe was getting diluted quite early in Greece before reaching the main Mycenaean region.

Code: 
P 0.263
  target                     left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log04.SG Turkey_N                    0.471  0.0286 16.4  
2 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log04.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0474 0.0338  1.40 
3 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log04.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.458  0.0538  8.52 
4 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log04.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0238 0.0282  0.841


P 0.122
  target                     left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log02.SG Turkey_N                    0.566  0.0257 22.0 
2 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log02.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0908 0.0349  2.60
3 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log02.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.277  0.0543  5.11
4 Greece_Logkas_MBA_Log02.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0663 0.0276  2.40
 
If the PIE homeland was in the south of Caucasus then it should be said that Greek came from this region because it was a direct descendant of PIE.
 
Pax Augusta said:
Paul Heggarty has co-written several books with Colin Renfrew and tries to retrieve Renfrew's thesis.

For me it is absolutely incorrect to make believe that the spread of the ancestor of the Indo-European language starting from the South Caucasus due to CHG during the Neolithic is the same thing as the farming that spread ANF/EEF. Renfrew's theory is based on the Neolithic revolution and had nothing to do with CHG and the South Caucasus. Now one of his collaborators is trying to make us believe that Refrenw was right too.

There are also other aspects of this paper that are very perplexing.
Click to expand...

Thank heavens I'm not the only one bothered by this paper labeling evidence for a linguistic split of PIE expansion as proof that Renfrew's "Farming Hypothesis" wasn't entirely wrong.

That idea that PIE people spread farming into Europe has largely been disproven as there is a strong genetic connection of the first farmers of Europe to peoples in and around Catalhoyuk, Boncuklu, etc. Even Lord Colin Renfrew himself has admitted that Marija Gimbutas' Steppe hypothesis carries much more weight in terms of the majority of PIE languages entering Europe.

That being said, Greek and Anatolian PIE certainly could have come from a PIE homeland south of the Caucasus, but this would much more likely be associated with documented Chalcolithic incursions such as the Hittites, Pala, Luwians, and recent genetic findings such as those that differentiate Mycenaeans from Minoans.

I guess my point is that this paper doesn't lend credence to both the Steppe theory and the Farming theory "Hybrid Model" as it claims. It just reinforces that some branches of PIE may have spread across Anatolia and the Aegean.
 
"Prospects for solving the Indo‑European enigma are brighter now, free from the outdated preconception that the Steppe must have been its earliest, original source.", Paul Heggarty

Forget outdated theories.
 
It is interesting to see them considering a Farmer-mediated diffusion (ANF) and a Steppe-mediated diffusion (WSH), while ignoring totally the main event that correspond roughly to the dates they obtain for the considered geographical area : the diffusion of copper-metallurgy.
Also, the common root for "copper" in Indo-Iranic and some western IE-languages seems to favor that this metal was already significantly used when the languages got spread. Making it hard to split Indo-Iranic from other branches before copper-age.

Still, I would remain "carefull" with the dates they obtain (extrapolating that far in time without proper calibration written languages and/or node is definitely unsecure), but if we go by their divergence times ... I don't even see the point to use the steppe as a secondary cluster, I would follow copper-metallurgy.
In such model, later Steppic migrants would have simply adopted "local" languages.

Recent DNA-studies reduced the likelyhood of having the Steppe as the original cradle for IE-languages.
Then, the diffusion mecanisms to favor strongly depends on the divergence time estimation for languages, and also of the fine topology between main branches.
The exact role of the steppe in all of that is fairly open, but clearly not secured.

Sadly, the geographical area where these languages are attested are connected by more than one migration event, therefore DNA-alone won't never tell the exact solution.
And, to me, linguistic divergence times will never be accurate/precise enough to clearly settle the question.

Considering the lack of EHG-admixture in BA-Anatolia, I would tend to be slightly more convince by a copper-metallurgy-related diffusion mecanism.
It could also bring some new light on some cultures that were long-held to be "indo-europeanized" (e.g., Baden-Boleraz, Remedello, GAC) but that unfolded steppeless or nearly steppeless regarding the DNA of their populations.
Still, to me, the question is very open.

PS:
A map of copper-metallurgy diffusion from https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32132941/
Capture-d-e-cran-2023-08-02-a-16-18-48.png
 
I'm just a dilettante layman.

Many European hydronyms have unknown origins, but some seem to make sense.
Sanskrit iṣiras 'swift', comes from the PIE *isro-, *sreu 'to flow' which seems to be at the origin of the name of many European less important rivers: Isar (Bavaria); Isère (France); Oise (France); Yzeron (France); Jizera (Czech Republic); Aire (Yorkshire); Yser (Belgium); Ypres; Ieperlee (Belgium) (Respectively in French and Dutch); Issel (Germany); IJssel (Netherlands) there are several (parts of) rivers in the Netherlands called IJssel (Yssel), one of which was called "Isala" during Roman times; Ézaro (Spain), Ésera (Spain); Iseran (Savoy); Esaro (Italy); Eisack (Italy); Isières (Belgium); Izarillo "little Izar" (Spain); Iza (Romania); Also relevant might be *ezero (the Slavic word for lake), ežeras (the Lithuanian word for lake) and the Acheron river in Greece. Since these rivers are secondary, their names may have originated from a first Indo-European wave that was overcome by a second wave that would have baptized the great rivers with names that seem to derive from the word *dānu- [Danube, Don, Dnieper, Dniester, Douro ... ]. In the case of the Danube, in Greek it is currently called e Doúnavis, which replaced the ancient Greek word Istros, originating from the PIE *isro- of the possible first wave.

Old European Hydronymy, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_European_hydronymy
 
Moja said:
"Prospects for solving the Indo‑European enigma are brighter now, free from the outdated preconception that the Steppe must have been its earliest, original source.", Paul Heggarty

Forget outdated theories.
Click to expand...

The steppe homeland theory is still valid and has not been refuted.

In fact, the criteria for the link between archaeology and language in a steppe homeland are met by the archaeological evidence for migrations in the direction and sequence suggested by linguistic data.
 
Ghurier said:
.......
Recent DNA-studies reduced the likelyhood of having the Steppe as the original cradle for IE-languages.........

Considering the lack of EHG-admixture in BA-Anatolia, I would tend to be slightly more convince by a copper-metallurgy-related diffusion mecanism......
Click to expand...


Harvard Lab’s really bad four-way mixing model, which used Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers as a source rather than Yamnaya, was their means of "proving" that Anatolia had no PIE heritage.

Furthermore, a sample from the Balkans that was admixed with Yamnaya and Early European Farmer would have more properly represented the genetic make-up of Proto-Anatolians.

The thing is: If Indo-European languages were transmitted in Anatolia by elite conquest rather than mass migration, PIE ancestry could have been diluted swiftly while language and culture persisted.

And for instance, the Mycenaeans as well as the Minoans had Caucasian-related and apparently "Indo-Anatolian"-speaking ancestors. However, only the Mycenaeans, who also had PIE steppe ancestors, spoke an Indo-European language.
 
@Jose luis

Du vieux slave ѥзеро, jezero[1] qui donne aussi jezero (« lac ») en croate, slovène et tchèque, jezioro en polonais, jazero en slovaque, езеро, ezero en bulgare. Apparenté au lituanien ežeras et au letton ezers.Équivalent du dérivé de яз, jaz (« retenue d’eau »), avec le suffixe -еро, -ero[1].

I haven't found a deeper etymology on the net. the root of jez could be ez so maybe an older *eg- or even **leg- (bet, very less sure!). I 'll try to find somethong more serious!
 
I wonder if someones aren't dreaming again of a "dispersion of the 7 tribes of Israel?
What amazes me is this supposed concentration of almost all ancient languages cradles in this relatively small area of this Great South-Caucasus. Concerning copper, and after it, bronze, we see a balance between Balkans and South Caucasus. And I think the scattering of metals cultures is not everytime the vector of language transmission or shift.
 
Tautalus said:
From the Supplementary Materials.

"Here, uncertainty in tree topology is represented by the posterior probability shown for each node. Any branch leading to a node with a posterior probability of less than 0.5 is shown as a dashed line. Branches that end before the right-hand margin represent non-modern languages, used here as date calibrations. Colors indicate the established clades of Indo-European"

h12J8st.jpg
Click to expand...
I would like to ask,what does NTGreek mean?
 
No known non-Indo-European language in the North of Iran:

lan_46b9.jpg
 
MOESAN said:
@Jose luis

Du vieux slave ѥзеро, jezero[1] qui donne aussi jezero (« lac ») en croate, slovène et tchèque, jezioro en polonais, jazero en slovaque, езеро, ezero en bulgare. Apparenté au lituanien ežeras et au letton ezers.Équivalent du dérivé de яз, jaz (« retenue d’eau »), avec le suffixe -еро, -ero[1].

I haven't found a deeper etymology on the net. the root of jez could be ez so maybe an older *eg- or even **leg- (bet, very less sure!). I 'll try to find somethong more serious!
Click to expand...

I reply to myself: finally I found a form *leg in an old IE roots book where the vague meaning was: "to drip" and evolution towards "water retention" cf lake in english, lacus in latin-
 
MOESAN said:
I reply to myself: finally I found a form *leg in an old IE roots book where the vague meaning was: "to drip" and evolution towards "water retention" cf lake in english, lacus in latin-
Click to expand...

There should be a nasal infix, the oldest Iranian word is lang "river".

lang_1af9.jpg
 
jose luis said:
I'm just a dilettante layman.

Many European hydronyms have unknown origins, but some seem to make sense.
Sanskrit iṣiras 'swift', comes from the PIE *isro-, *sreu 'to flow' which seems to be at the origin of the name of many European less important rivers: Isar (Bavaria); Isère (France); Oise (France); Yzeron (France); Jizera (Czech Republic); Aire (Yorkshire); Yser (Belgium); Ypres; Ieperlee (Belgium) (Respectively in French and Dutch); Issel (Germany); IJssel (Netherlands) there are several (parts of) rivers in the Netherlands called IJssel (Yssel), one of which was called "Isala" during Roman times; Ézaro (Spain), Ésera (Spain); Iseran (Savoy); Esaro (Italy); Eisack (Italy); Isières (Belgium); Izarillo "little Izar" (Spain); Iza (Romania); Also relevant might be *ezero (the Slavic word for lake), ežeras (the Lithuanian word for lake) and the Acheron river in Greece. Since these rivers are secondary, their names may have originated from a first Indo-European wave that was overcome by a second wave that would have baptized the great rivers with names that seem to derive from the word *dānu- [Danube, Don, Dnieper, Dniester, Douro ... ]. In the case of the Danube, in Greek it is currently called e Doúnavis, which replaced the ancient Greek word Istros, originating from the PIE *isro- of the possible first wave.

Old European Hydronymy, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_European_hydronymy
Click to expand...

da/dan is the old Elamite word for "river": https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Elamite_Swadesh_list

There is also Jordan River: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ירדן#Hebrew

From Proto-Iranian *yáHr̥ (“year”), from Proto-Indo-Iranian *yáHr̥, from Proto-Indo-European *yeh₁- (“year”) (compare Avestan 𐬫𐬁𐬭𐬆‎ (yārə, “year”)) and Proto-Iranian *dānu (“river”) (< Proto-Indo-Iranian *dáHnu < Proto-Indo-European *déh₂nu) (compare Ossetian дон (don, “river”), Avestan 𐬛𐬁𐬥𐬎‎ (dānu, “river”)), according to which the Jordan is the “year-river” because of its water level being consistent the whole year, backing this derivation by the theory that the name of the Orontes is of “certain” Iranian origin, although also found attested earlier.
 
@Moesan

From the Google Bard:

Proto-Indo-European root isro-, sreu means "to flow." It is a verb root, which means that it can be used to form verbs. The root is found in a number of Indo-European languages, including Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, and Old English.

The meaning of the root is likely related to the idea of something that moves smoothly and continuously. This is reflected in the words that have been formed from the root, which often have meanings related to movement or speed. For example, the Sanskrit word iṣiras, which means "swift," comes from this root.

The root isro-, sreu is also found in a number of compounds, such as the Sanskrit word srotas, which means "river." This word literally means "that which flows," and it is a good example of how the root can be used to form words that have meanings related to movement or speed.

Here is a table of some of the Indo-European words that have been formed from the root isro-, sreu :

Language.......Word....Meaning

Sanskrit........ iṣiras...swift, quick
Greek..............eiro.......to flow
Latin................ire.........to go
Old English...serian....to flow


From the Wikipedia :

Chapter, Names and etymology of the article Danube, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube#Other_names

"The 《Danube》 river was known to the ancient Greeks as the Istros (Ἴστρος)[8] a borrowing from a Daco-Thracian name meaning 'strong, swift', from a root possibly also encountered in the ancient name of the Dniester (Danaster in Latin, Tiras in Greek) and akin to Iranic turos 'swift' and Sanskrit iṣiras (इषिरस्) 'swift', from the PIE *isro-, *sreu 'to flow'.[9]

[9] 《Open access》 Felecan, Oliviu; Felecan, Nicolae (2015). "Straturi etimologice reflectate în hidronimia românească" (PDF). Quaderns de Filologia: Estudis Lingüístics. Universitat de València. 20 (1): 254. doi:10.7203/qfilologia.20.7521 "

From a dilettante layman:

I would also venture to speak of a branch of the 1⁰ wave along the Mediterranean coast, where the names vary around Ézar... and Éser..., and another along the Danube-Rhine where the names vary around Isar..., Iser... . This 2⁰ branch has a subgroup in Germany and the Netherlands, in Issel and IJssel.
 
Moja said:
There should be a nasal infix, the oldest Iranian word is lang "river".
lang_1af9.jpg
Click to expand...
The nasal infix as you say is common enough among IE tongues, among them Latin.
What is less certain to me is the semantic correlation bewteen 'river' and 'piece of land', except if we consider pieces of arable lands were more common along rivers (?).
 
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