Languages, haplogroups, and tribes

well it says 500,000 speak the scottish language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

hmmm....i always though it was all one language in scotland, but the highland scots have another language

I suppose it's about at what point you draw the line between a language and a dialect. For me Scot's doesn't qualify as a language because the people speaking it are being taught English at school and there is no school child thinking English is a foreign language.

The spellings of written 'Scots' to me are nonsense because no one wrties with those spellings they write in normal English but might in spoken language pronounce the words differently.

For example they would write: What are you doing < would be taught in schools and is the only acceptable way to communicate in Scotland in written language the 'scots' spellings you have seen on wiki are used by no one I know.

The way that sentence might be pronounced by some people and this will vary all over the parts of country might be "wit ar yae daen"

My point is "scots" is a accent it has some grammatical variation from English, but for the people using it is all supported from straight English and so has not evolved to become a new language, and I doubt with modern education standards ever will.

You can't find a paper written in 'Scots' and you don't get letters from friends written like that and would never get any business communication like that. Where you might see those kind of spelling might be in an informal text message on on messenger to communicate a colloquial tone, but for 90% of all Scottish people it would be hard work to read the accented spelling rather than straight English.

I would also make clear that 'Scots' is completely different thing from Scottish Gaelic, but I'm sure you all know that.
There are some books written in 'Scots' with the crazy spellings but you'd be lucky if 5% of Scottish people had ever read or bought one.
 
I hate to ruin anyones romantic notions about Scotland, but....

Scots is not a real language! You can't go into any news agent in Scotland and find a paper written in Scots, there are no schools teaching it in place of English. If you write a business letter with those kind of spellings and grammar you'd be laughed at.

Scots has been promoted by some people as a language for politcal reasons as with many dialects, I appreciate its a heavy accent and as spoken has some gramatical variations that straight in english wouldn't work, but it is still just a informal variation of English.

I have lived in Scotland most my life and I am struggling to read half of the wiki pedia nonsense. Accents differ across the country as anywhere, people from Glasgow (the major population centre) consider anyone oustide of Glasgow to be a 'choochter' definition :grin:.

If you are hungry for more 'glasgow patter' watch some scottish comedy on youtube, it would be interesting to see if the humour translates to an international audience as many English people would struggle with it.

The Limmy Show

Clip One

Clip Two

Clip Three

Well... You don't seem to like the idea that Scottish is related to Dutch.
But there are a lot of similarities between the dialects, whether you like it or not.
And it's understandable, because the people in the Southern Netherlands, Belgium, France, Ireland and Scotland are related to each other.
 
I don't believe in 'Scots' as a distinct language, but as a dialect, too. Everything edao just mentioned applies also in detail to 'Alemannic', which also is a dialect. It is informal, used in in written form perhaps in some messengers or emails, but nothing more.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to humbly suggest moving this thread into the linguistics section, since it has nothing to do with genetics but everything to do with linguistics. (y)
 
Iapetoc you have absolutely zero knowledge of Greek, everything you say is wrong. ''Pyrgos'' means tower in Greek not lighthouse while ''keli'' means ''a small room of a monastery or a prison''. We never use keli for tower, only pyrgos or castro and lighthouse is always ''faros''. Where did you get your linguistic degree from??
 
Iapetoc you have absolutely zero knowledge of Greek, everything you say is wrong. ''Pyrgos'' means tower in Greek not lighthouse while ''keli'' means ''a small room of a monastery or a prison''. We never use keli for tower, only pyrgos or castro and lighthouse is always ''faros''. Where did you get your linguistic degree from??

You are a total ignorant of ancient Greek and especially Homerick,
keep modern Greek speaking and don't spread modern, I don't care about modern which is bullshit,

Pyrgos is ancient word, we find it also in Etruscan language, as Pyrgi with same meaning,
Pyrgos as tower is later, like γαμε-ω means other to ancient other to modern,
Paros is the ancient name for Pharos, Pharos became after Makedonian and especially at koine,

In pontic Greek the tower is τσαλλι Calli,
the meaning of Kelli as an indipendent in monasteries is later by byzantines,
The case of Gulla and Surdia in Kozani, as many other places with Kelli near a sord is typical in Greece,

Search in Ionic Greece minor asia Smyrna area the Kelli areas,
the Calabria or Sarendo name in Italy,
The Gulla and Surdia in Kozani

remember that -issa -essa means tower in Homeric, also in Hettit
My linguistic is From Greek university,
But my work is in pre-Homeric words and languages,
and believe me modern Greek are very different with Homeric,
as an exapmle i give you the word Ελλερον and Ελλυας -Ελλυες (Homer Odyssey) what means to you?
is it in modern Greek?
well not but christians and some others manage to destroy it,

the Pyrgos means Pyr + cheo Πυρ+χεω χεω-χοανη-χυνω,
the word kelli we find it also in ancient Athens,
Δε-κελλεια (Δε-De-DI) as you see Kelli is a Pelasgian word, a non PIE word of Greek
for you it is an unknown word, or Tattoi but is Pelasgic
it survived in pontic Greeks as τσαλλι
and in Smyrna people as Kulla -Kulle
minor Asia Ionia is full of Kelli,
Athens were Pelasgians- Thyrrenian Branch as Thoukidides say and Not IE
that is why in Attic and Ionic dialects we find many Pelasgic-Thyrrenian words,
remember the word ΚΕΛΛΥΦΟΣ,
what means Kellyfos?
it is same root with Kelli
maybe for you is the turkish word καβουκι,



now since you know ancient Greek tell me what Larissa means and what Larymna
there you find the ancient Greeks that you don't know,

for an introduction in Homeric and Pelasgic language read Thomopoulos pelasgika, although i have my precautions in enough words,

to understand more
3 Ναουσα Nausa

1 in cyclades
2 in Makedonia
3 in Serbia

tell me the differences and what means each one

since you are Greek tell me what means Φρατερ, Μητρινα,
and especially Ναιουσαι πεποτησθε βροτων, και σκιρτηται Κουρηται ρομβηται
ειδικα το ρομβηται,


Remember Kallikrateia, Callambria, Kallipolis, Gulla - Magoula, all means about the same
the Kelli - Celli, and not the kalos καλος, which gives another meaning
Kalos with 1 L
Kelli with 2 L

thank you,

PS
what means γρουσσα to you?
and virb Γρικαω (εγρικησα Αορ)

what means Παρνασσος , why with 2 ss and in which language?
how Parnassos will be in Latin or in English

and remember castro is not a Greek word,
so stay in your ignorance,
or in school literature, cause you are total fail when you say kastro is Greek word
Pyrgos was the signal area of all ok,
remember in Makedonia they learn news of Alexander by using Pyrgos signals,
and not kastro signals,
if you study ancient poleodomy, then you understand what pyrgos was,
it was similar to Paros-Pharos but with purpose to signal news of battle or situation, like fine, danger etc

so stay in your modern Greek,
and go 'πανδρεψου cause if you knew Greek you will never say 'πανδρευομαι,

Να θυμασαι οτι αυτα που μαθαινεις σημερα δεν ειναι Ελληνικα, αλλα οτι απομεινε απο την γλωσσα,
οπως την καταντησαν οι χριστιανοι και οι βυζαντινοι,
το αβγο δεν ειναι Ελληνικο, ουτε το κουταλι (τουρκικη λεξη),
το ωο ειναι και το κοχλιαριο,
τα νεα εξηγουνται με τα αρχαια, τα αρχαια δεν εξηγουνται με τα νεα,
γιατι λες νερο? ξερεις απο που βγηκε ασχετε?
τι θα πει Ποντος για σενα (λεξη οχι περιοχη) και τι ποντιος?
μηπως το cm το εκατοστο ειναι ο Τιτανας ποντος?

σαν τον ασχετο τον Αλβανο που λεει οτι η λεξη πυργος ειναι πο το Γρερμανικο -burg φυλακη,
ενω η λεξη φυλακη ειναι καθαρα Ελληνικη,
θυμησου την πολη Φυλακαι των αρχαιων μακεδονων,

εγω ειμαι απο την περιοχη της αρχαιας Μπαλλας στην Μακεδονια,
Ξερεις τι σημαινει Μπαλλα ασχετε στα Ελληνικα? μηπως ποδοσφαιρο?


Next time care when you speak of me and Greek Language,
Cause you are as ignorant, as the dumpest person who think that learn in school everything
and can expalin ancient and Homeric with modern,

when you search the linguistic of past, you must be well informed,
like
modern greek is χαλκος chalkos
but the Greek word is Κυπρος Kupros in Homeric, (cyprus)
and Kυπρος is not an island, short mind pupil, but Κιττιον is the island name,

where did you learn your Greeks?

το πιο απλο, εαν εχεις διαβασει τα ποστ μου,
τι θα πει Ερεβος,
σε ποια αλλη γλωσσα το συνανταμε?
το εξηγω σε καποια ποστ μου,
αντε με τις υγιες σου Νεο Ελληνα

αφιερωμενο το τραγουδι του τζιμμη πανουση,
 
Last edited:
I wanted to add something else here, I mentioned before that in Estonian and Finnish, the word for "iron" is "rauta". The most probable etymology is from the Proto-Indo-European word *Hreudh- ("red" - compare Latin "Rutilus", Greek "Erythros", Welsh "Rhudd" - all which mean "red").

In fact, the cognate for the word in the Baltic and Slavic languages actually means "ore":

Latvian, Lithuanian - Rūda
Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Slovenian - Ruda
Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian - Rudy
 
Dear friend iapetoc (Iapetos derives from 'iapto' did you know that?)
'Pyrgos'= tower, fortification in ancient Greek,period. There existed also a verb 'pyrgo-o' wich meant I build a tower, a fort or a wall.
'Pharos'= lighthouse is derived from 'phaos'=light
'Kelyphos'= shell is propably derived from 'kalypto'=cover and is written with one L.
'Kalli-polis'= good-city. In ancient Greek allthough 'kalos'= good,nice was written with one L it's form 'kallos'=beauty was written with two L. It has no relation to 'kelli'.
For example
'Kalli-ergo'= I cultivate litterrally means 'I do a good work' ('kallos' + 'ergon'=work)
'Kall-op-izo'= I make the face beautyfull ('kallos' + the root 'op'=face from opsis)
'Kalli-phonos'= He who has a beautyfull voice, and so on.
'Phrater' meant brother in ancient Greek but today we use the word 'a-delph-os' wich litterally means 'from the same womb'('delphys'=womb) We occasionally use the word 'fatria'=clan,brotherhood
'Rombetai' is propably derived from 'rembazo'= I wonder.
You see I know modern Greek well wich helps me understand ancient Greek better than you.
 
'Pontos'=open sea and 'pontios'=he who is related with the sea, while 'pontikos'=he who origins from the Black Sea.
'augo'=egg derives from ancient 'οων'.
'hyp-andr-evomai'(hypo-andros)= I get married and should only be used for women because it litterally means 'under the man'
I could go for hours.
 
'Erebos'=primordial darkness is related with the Indo-European root 'orbho'=orphan (because 'Erebos' was unborn). An other ancient Greek word derived from 'erebos' is 'orphne' wich means darkness.
 
I wanted to add something else here, I mentioned before that in Estonian and Finnish, the word for "iron" is "rauta". The most probable etymology is from the Proto-Indo-European word *Hreudh- ("red" - compare Latin "Rutilus", Greek "Erythros", Welsh "Rhudd" - all which mean "red").

In fact, the cognate for the word in the Baltic and Slavic languages actually means "ore":

Latvian, Lithuanian - Rūda
Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Slovenian - Ruda
Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian - Rudy

Brilliant, that's the IE conection.
 
Brilliant, that's the IE conection.

Here's the gist: it appears that there's a significant number of words (in the Finnic branch, at least, I cannot talk about the other branches of IE) which appear to be loans from Proto-Indo-European. The critical point is that this is from PIE or close to it, rather than Balto-Slavic or Germanic. This does however match, archeologically speaking the contact between people of the Comb Ceramic Culture and the Corded Ware Culture, or, in terms of Y-Haplogroups, contact between predominantly N people and R1a people.
 
Here's the gist: it appears that there's a significant number of words (in the Finnic branch, at least, I cannot talk about the other branches of IE) which appear to be loans from Proto-Indo-European. The critical point is that this is from PIE or close to it, rather than Balto-Slavic or Germanic. This does however match, archeologically speaking the contact between people of the Comb Ceramic Culture and the Corded Ware Culture, or, in terms of Y-Haplogroups, contact between predominantly N people and R1a people.

Why would you think the loans in Finnic languages are directly from PIE rather than from ie proto Balto-Slavic, proto Baltic, proto Germanic who where close by?

http://www.sgr.fi/ct/ct51.html
http://www.angelfire.com/va/virdainas/proto.html
 
Why would you think the loans in Finnic languages are directly from PIE rather than from ie proto Balto-Slavic, proto Baltic, proto Germanic who where close by?

http://www.sgr.fi/ct/ct51.html
http://www.angelfire.com/va/virdainas/proto.html

I didn't say that there weren't such loans from (Proto-)Slavic/Baltic/Germanic, because they clearly exist, but this primarily because of the type of loans, and also adherence/non-adherence to sound laws. With the former, what is critical there is the fact that the Comb Ceramic people were essentially hunter-gatherers which however had the knowledge of pottery, so it's far more likely that they picked up agricultural terms there than at a later point (consider that the Corded Ware people were Copper Age mixed-farmers-pastoralists).

Also, I said "PIE or (something) close to it".
 
In fact Iapetoc you are the stupid one if you think that language remains the same after 3000 years...of course Greek language changed since Homer it would have been a miracle if it didn't. But even the Homeric language was not a pure language as you seem to think, it was a poetic language which was never used by ordinary people. I read your previous post again and I noticed some other words you point out that made me laugh with your knowledge of how language works. For example you ask me if I know what 'gameo' meant in Old Greek and what it means in Modern Greek (which you label corrupted). Let's start:
'Gameo' meant 'I take a wife' in ancient Greek from 'gamos'=marriage but in modern Greek it means 'I have sex' which makes perfect sence since sex is what you do with your wife...but 'gamos'=marriage is still in use like other words that derive from it ('gamelios' for example).
Than you ask me why we use 'chalkos' instead of ancient Greek 'kypros' (none of these words is actually of Hellenic origin) but you are so ill-informed that you don't know that both words were in use in ancient Greek (have you heard of 'Chalkis/Chalkida/Chalkidice'?) A multitude of words derived from 'chalkos' existed in ancient Greek like 'chalkevo' 'chalkeios' chalkeus' 'chalkion' etc.
The fact that you read some Thomopoulos book doesn't make you an expert in Greek, in fact from what you say Thomopoulos seems like a moron to me.
And by the way that Albanian who talled you that 'pyrgos' is related with 'burg' was absolutely right.
 

This thread has been viewed 93902 times.

Back
Top