Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance

Sickle-cell disease and Thalassemia have the effect of lower oxygen transport by erythrocytes, which will be followed by reduced physical activity, or as you would say, 'laziness' (which is a rather jugding term, as it implies 'unwillingness'). I know it is not what you meant, but by the choice of your words, other readers will get the impression that laziness is an evoutionary advantage for prevention of malaria.

In my mind laziness does not involve unwillingness. There are days when I feel too tired to work, when I want to laze around. Laziness is not something one decides, nor is it a permanent condition. It just depends on the energy and motivation one has at a particular time. Extreme heat can make me lazy, but that doesn't mean I am always lazy. Genetic anaemia on the other hand is much more serious as it is a permanent condition and is incurable (although regular treatment can alleviate the symptoms). So I find it funny that you should criticise my use of the term "lazy" when for me it is much more benign than "suffering from sickle cell anaemia" (and neither have anything to do with personal choice).

But either way we will have to prove that both sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia with non-treatment are so highly distributed among certain populations that THESE diseases actually are the reason of lower performance and productivity of their countries.

If these diseases have no influence on poor economic performance, then the alternative possibilities might end up being more disturbing. I am almost certain that widespread anaemia has a negative impact on productivity. It surely isn't the only reason, but it is an important factor.

I am not that familiar with distribution of diseases within Europe, but I'm sure if I did some research I will also find some with a higher prevalence in Northern Europe, which in that case should imply a lower productivity there.

Sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia are extremely rare in northern Europe (under 1%, and perhaps under 0.1% of the population). The former is tested by 23andMe, by the way, so it's easy to make a quick survey among users to confirm. I have access to the data from about 30 people (mostly of northern European descent) through extended sharing, and none have the sickle-cell mutation.

If I remember it well, didn't the Roman writer and politician Tacitus describe the Germans as lazy, with tendency towards gambling and alcoholism? At those times Northern Europe wasn't half as successful as the Mediterranean countries, despite of a much higher malaria distribution in southern places at that time! How do you explain that?

How much credit can you give to a haughty, condescending Roman politician when describing people he doesn't know well (and certainly hasn't lived among) that the mighty, civilised Romans like to belittle as "barbarians" ? It's not an objective point of view, and it isn't based on solid knowledge of the people discussed. It's merely a sort of self-flattering propaganda that the Romans loved to write. Frankly, the Romans accusing others of gambling and alcoholism, when they partied in Rome half of the year, indulging in orgies and gambling on charioteers and gladiators ? :rolleyes:


I'm not surprised of your theory that Germans and East Asians share a certain gene that effects hard work and diligence, as you are the one who believes that Northern Europeans also inherited individualism from Neanderthals. Maybe you would also say that diligence is attached to the same gene?

Diligence has absolutely nothing to do with individualism ! I don't know how you can liken the two ? East Asians are among the most collectivist (anti-individualistic) people on Earth ! The most individualistic Europeans are not necessarily Germanic either. The Brits and Irish are possibly the most individualistic, and their ancestry is first "Celtic" (or ancient Briton) then Germanic. German, Dutch and Scandinavian people are somewhat collectivist in their sense of egalitarianism and value of the common welfare (they are similar to the Japanese in this regard). The French and the Italians (especially northern Italians) can be quite individualistic. In business for instance, collectivist countries will favour big corporations (like the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, but also the Germans), while very individualistic societies have a profusion of self-employed people and small companies (like Italy). According to the cultural psychologist Geert Hofstede, the most individualistic Europeans are the British, followed by the Dutch and Hungarians, then the Italians and the Belgians.
 
Last edited:
maciamo

thalassaimia and drepanocyttarosis and homocystein and many other are connected with different DNA genes and you know it.

HBO
MTHFR etc

not with E-V13,

The map I posted clearly showed that the distribution of sickle cell disease and thalassemia matched pretty well the distribution of haplogroup E. Furthermore, sickle cell disease originated in Africa and so did haplogroup E. Malaria isn't a new disease and the sickle cell mutation may date back to tens of thousands of years. It's even possible that all human populations carried it before leaving Africa, and that individuals lacking it were positively selected once they reached parts of the world unaffected by malaria, because it conferred an advantage (lack of anaemia). It is a very reasonable assumption that sickle cell anaemia was re-introduced into the Middle East and south-east Europe by the migration of E1b1b at the end of the last Ice Age, and it remained there because malaria reappeared with the warming up of the climate 10,000 years ago.

my second cousin who has thalassaimia takes 5mg of folic acid every day, (about 5 cent a day)
and I inform she works twice than her kids and her husband, why, she needs only 30 min of rest and fast sleep every 4-6 hours,
and then is fresh again, but by that she learn to sleep only 3-4-5 hours the day,
so with may not the streangth to work continuesly 10 hours, but she sleeps less than others.
she sleeps 4-5 times per day but the max is 1-2 hours.

Not all people affected by thalassemia get treatment. In fact, many people don't even know they have it. People who come from regions were sickle-cell disease or thalassemia is common should get tested and, if positive, treated to improve their living conditions.


TAKE A LOOK IN NBA BASKET BALL MAJORITY IS E Y-DNA
TAKE A LOOK AT FRANCE NATIONAL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL'S FOOTBALL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT ATHLETICS ALL RUNNERS ARE E DNA
even Kenteris could be E carrier

Yes, ok. What's your point ? I know that. Some Africans are much better at some sports than Europeans or Asians. But Europeans also excel in some sports (e.g. tennis, swimming, motor sports) more than Africans and Asians, and East Asians excel at yet other sports (gymnastics, synchronised swimming, martial arts).
WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?

But we do. We just did, you and me. I think that you don't understand the difference between a correlation between a haplogroup and a population and the direct effect of a haplogroup on a person. The Y-chromosome has no effect on sickle-cell anaemia or other medical conditions.

In your theory about Y-DNA and IE you gave the exact word for Greece melting pot,
yet my fathers from ancient times connect it in Thessaly via Olympic games,
Greek is a family of smaller tribes,
why we accept Slavic the I2a of south balkans and the R1a of north?
we accept Slavic Family of nations not a nation but a family
same is Greece is a family of tribes we accept Greek nation but not family of nations.

Ethnicities and nations are completely different things. The concept of nation is a feeling shared by citizens of a same country regardless of ethnicity. The USA is a good example of a multi-ethnic nation. But no ethnologist would think of a country like France as a mono-ethnic (even if you don't take recent immigrants into accounts). A Breton is clearly distinguishable genetically and culturally from a Provençal, and an Alsatian has little in common with a Basque. Big countries (by European standards) like France, Germany, Italy or Spain are patchworks of ethnic groups that were unified under a common government to form nation states. I was just pointing out that this was also true for Greece.


PS 3
I ask the author to say clear what he means corruption?
corruption has many faces in a social organiazed municipal,
with which face of corruption he connects it?

I think that in this case, corruption refers mainly to government corruption, which comes in three types :

1) Political corruption, the abuse of public power, office, or resources by elected government officials for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes It can also refer to office holders maintaining themselves in office by purchasing votes by enacting laws which use taxpayer money.

2) Bureaucratic corruption is the abuse of power, office, or resources by government employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes

3) Police corruption, a specific form of bureaucratic misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits, other personal gain, and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest

The mafia is strongly associated with these three types of corruption. The most famous mafias in Europe are the South Italian and Albanian mafias, the two regions of Europe with the highest percentage of haplogroup E1b1b outside Greece. It might just be a coincidence, but that is a lot of coincidences...
 
I think that in this case, corruption refers mainly to government corruption, which comes in three types :

1) Political corruption, the abuse of public power, office, or resources by elected government officials for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes It can also refer to office holders maintaining themselves in office by purchasing votes by enacting laws which use taxpayer money.

2) Bureaucratic corruption is the abuse of power, office, or resources by government employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes

3) Police corruption, a specific form of bureaucratic misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits, other personal gain, and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest

The mafia is strongly associated with these three types of corruption. The most famous mafias in Europe are the South Italian and Albanian mafias, the two regions of Europe with the highest percentage of haplogroup E1b1b outside Greece. It might just be a coincidence, but that is a lot of coincidences...


ok i never deny about corruption in balkans and south east europe,

mafia is alternate word famillia, family,
it is connected with ancient patriarchical system

about the cases of corruption,
so we spoke about an 'elite of society' being corrupted, which i believe is correct.
my believes are also the same, the case of a bucket of wheat from roman times is true,


but on the other hand in Greece we say a moto, οτι λαμπει δεν ειναι χρυσος, ανθρακες ο θησαυρος, what ever is shining is not gold, the treasure was coal
that means we show a light, a spark, is it gold? or it is coal? coals are shining also, especially at night


then we have to find the mechanism of how that gene is working,
so if it is E-Ydna then what hormone or what chemistry, or what human structure makes them bend to corruption.
a mind satisfaction? a kind of body orgasm with money? the colour of money?

I believe corruption has to do with brain activity, or with with soul satisfaction, if it is in genes,
I believe we go back to the 'miserables' and Janver theory who, at least at the show, had a map with shapes of head, and measure people's head and put them to classes, thieves, murderers, etc,
in old anthropology they try to find what makes a human criminal,
for example small ears or big nose or whatever,

I had read about an article about gymnastics, and E people from africa, western African have long muscle cells,
that gives short time strength. with a neural spark their muscles give fast act spending high energy, and have big perfomance,
but that last for short hour,
that is why types like Carl Lewis can not run marathons or long time games,
on the other hand Kenya and Ethiopeans have the shortest muscular cells,
that means they don't have strong muscular react, they spend small energy in a neural spark, so they can last working for hours,
they are bad at 100 m but good in 5000 10000 m,
why cause they save energy better than others,

As always enviroment plays its role,

Nature take its choices by donating, or by exterminating long muscular cells people in Desert and savannah,
ultil 1970 caravans walked days to cross desert, and goat breeders walk hours to find grass,
so short muscular survived better than long muscular cells,
that is a mechanism why north of sahara we also have Mt Dna different than south of Sahara,
but they both E Ydna,
All the above is a nature choice of who survives, a mechanism who connects enviroment with genes,

in case of corruption, which shine as treasure to some,
and for me is coal, but for some is gold,
what mechanism works?
and is that mechanism really connected with the Fraction work of cells having the E Y-DNA?

I believe corruption is after the social system, and a survival mechanism.
Patriarchical-semitribal societies have that symptoms, they are equal among them, but they are offensive against others,

also a brain activity that helped in past, but not today,
in the christian bible we read about the metals of Jacob, and also about the daughter Deina and how they act.
they prefer to slain the offender instead to marry sister,
why? cause they gain power as tribe like that,

same is with corruption in balkans,
what is happening,
people in order to gain something they desire, they have 2 choices,
1 is to kill the other and buy it,
2nd is to buy it legally or illegal

when from roman times a vote= a bucket of wheat, today one who dreams to be president, must buy the votes of the weak,
20 50 500 E is good prize,
so in case that someone owns the bank money or a poor person to help him with family votes to save some money surely they will vote you,
Honour and price is same word,
so politicians spend money according peoples demands and get votes, but then they make tricks and steal money from people's taxes etc,
corruption follows the laws of the market,

example is the police corruption and cafes night clubs etc,

a policeman works 8 hours and 4 hours is in yellow light, meaning is semi suspended in day, that 4 hours he must be in station in 20 minutes to take over action if demanded.
that 4 hours they spend it in stores that can be robbed, and owners obliged for protecting them treat them or help them with their own way
but when that habit becomes a work, a gang, an organised famillia of protection, who is asking money to protect you,
from robbers, or even by him self then is crime, criminal corruption,

ok Greek police is corrupted and we all know that,
in fact in a late judges attack about 40 policeman were arrested cause they make protection as their job,

But is not the same with North Securities that protect blocks of houses etc?
not a simple small super market but whole blocks and big corporations,
simply in one case we have policeman that are corrupted, and in the other mafia security wars,

at least in kinimatograph in USA we see killing of drug dealers etc, dead people
in Balkans we see drug dealers to pay police to buy a piazza

both are crimes, simply the first we leave it as crime, and the second we record it as corruption and crime,

to end this, Hugo is clear about theories of criminality
Janver's theory are little beat dangerous if not explained correct and how mechanism works,

if I watch how diabetes and fatness is growing in North western world, then surely i connect it with Haplogroups,
but is it really connected with Haplogroups? or is the way of modern leaving and consuming societies,
 
This is funny.

That's why the Ashkenazi Jews(25% haplogroup E) are poor? Right?

It has nothing to do with these countries being communist and being oppressed for hundreds of years? Right?

That's why North Korea is so ******* rich? There's no difference between North and South Korea? Right? Genetically?

You people are ******* retarded. That's why east and west Germany have always been equally prosperous? Right?

So explain to me why North and South Korea are genetically almost identical and economically on opposite sides of a spectrum.. LOL.


Guess what, morons? Your little fairy tale existence is coming to an end. The rest of the world is catching up to western europe which is immigrant infested and diseased. The quality of life will establish an equilibrium. The people living beyond the mean will fall (western europe), people living below the mean will rise (eastern europe, china, etc). It's the course of humanity.
 
This is funny.

That's why the Ashkenazi Jews(25% haplogroup E) are poor? Right?

It has nothing to do with these countries being communist and being oppressed for hundreds of years? Right?

That's why North Korea is so ******* rich? There's no difference between North and South Korea? Right? Genetically?

You people are ******* retarded. That's why east and west Germany have always been equally prosperous? Right?

So explain to me why North and South Korea are genetically almost identical and economically on opposite sides of a spectrum.. LOL.


Guess what, morons? Your little fairy tale existence is coming to an end. The rest of the world is catching up to western europe which is immigrant infested and diseased. The quality of life will establish an equilibrium. The people living beyond the mean will fall (western europe), people living below the mean will rise (eastern europe, china, etc). It's the course of humanity.

Relax buddy, someone just came up with a hypothesis and we are discussing the merits of it, your language is very vulgar.
 
I never seen a nation which has 1 ethnicity.
As for the greeks, they might be culturally the same , but ethnicitally they are different. Cretans are different to Ionian greeks, to pelopennisan greeks etc etc . There are even greeks called the mani in the peopennese who are very different .

Dialects ( actually no such thing , but a language) indicates changes of ethnicity in peoples , even greeks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modern_Greek_dialects_en.svg
 
yes of course,

frog

cretan aforthakos
pontic forthaka
makedonian batrachos -is
thessalian batrachi

it is not a local idiom but ethnicity :useless:


Lets see the story behind like who was after Venice and who was Turkish,
and from which ancient language comes from,

and then lets speak about dialects,

for example
Pontic and Cretan are from Ionia people,
so they name the frog
Aforthakos and forthaka
why the change?
cause was isolated for 1000 years and was under turkish rules,
and the other was under Venice,

lets see the Makedonian and thessalian Batrachos and Batrachi
why is the same cause they both followed same history from ancient Aeolic and bothe were under turkish
then why Makedonian is male and female and the other is neutral
cause in thessaly we had strong roman -aromani presence, in aromani most animals goes to neutral

that is how dialects are created,
but lets keep to thread.
 
Perhaps the Greek etymology of ethnicity related to culture and customs (actually it comes from ethnikos, itself derived from ethnos "band of people living together, nation, people"), but in English (or French, Italian and Spanish for that matter), ethnicity refers first and foremost to common ancestry (therefore DNA).

I have no idea what you call anti-Greek propaganda. I have nothing against Greek people, and never said and wrote anything negative about Greece or Greeks. You are obviously delusional. If that is anti-Greek to say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parts of Greece then I can't help you. Go see a shrink.
You didn't just say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parst of Greece you claimed that while Greeks think that they belong to the same ethnicity they actually descend from a multitude of ethnicities which I have prooven to be wrong.
 
yes of course,

frog

cretan aforthakos
pontic forthaka
makedonian batrachos -is
thessalian batrachi

it is not a local idiom but ethnicity :useless:


Lets see the story behind like who was after Venice and who was Turkish,
and from which ancient language comes from,

and then lets speak about dialects,

for example
Pontic and Cretan are from Ionia people,
so they name the frog
Aforthakos and forthaka
why the change?
cause was isolated for 1000 years and was under turkish rules,
and the other was under Venice,

lets see the Makedonian and thessalian Batrachos and Batrachi
why is the same cause they both followed same history from ancient Aeolic and bothe were under turkish
then why Makedonian is male and female and the other is neutral
cause in thessaly we had strong roman -aromani presence, in aromani most animals goes to neutral

that is how dialects are created,
but lets keep to thread.

language and dialects ( same thing) is the first sign of different ethnicity. What are you trying to say.?

Greeks will know you never had a government between Alexander the Great and 1824, that's over 2000 years where other states ruled/governed Greeks , which led to other ethnic peoples migrating into greek lands.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word) or returned to the their homeland, these peoples being, macedonians, franks, tuscans, genoese, catalans, venetians, Genoese , ottomans........did I leave any out?

Greeks do not have 1 ethnic type......no one has 1 ethnic type
 
language and dialects ( same thing) is the first sign of different ethnicity. What are you trying to say.?

Greeks will know you never had a government between Alexander the Great and 1824, that's over 2000 years where other states ruled/governed Greeks , which led to other ethnic peoples migrating into greek lands.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word) or returned to the their homeland, these peoples being, macedonians, franks, tuscans, genoese, catalans, venetians, Genoese , ottomans........did I leave any out?

Greeks do not have 1 ethnic type......no one has 1 ethnic type


are you nuts? who said about 1 type? even 2 brothers are not the same?

and remember Greeks had goverments at pergamos Seleykeia Alexandreia,
and after 1204 and the damn crusaders we also took the sceptres, like the 4 areas
Epirus Smyrna Mystra and Trapezous,
better read better the greek history,

we never had 1 goverment eve at alexanders time Lakedaimonians had another goverment and Magnas had their owns,

and is only <400 years,
Hello Trebizond was Greek
in fact first general of Greek revolt was from there, and Greek revolt started in Romania, hello

I know what are talking about and where you go again the thread,
just 1 word wake up we survided for 400 years and we are still here,
while you (you know who) served who?
now next thing is to say me that greeks had dissapear and the today are all foreigners,

well you anti-greek feeling again expressed,
ALL WHO FOUGHT WITH US AT 1821 HAVE A HOMELAND,
ALL WHO FOUGHT AGAINST US GO TO HELL,

now about fyrom
the answer is known, get .... zanipolo

catalans in Greece?

genouates in greece?
in fact Greeks moved to Genoua and fought for genovese,
franks? yes exist at 1871 they were about 40 000 and today about 60 000
with the word Franks Greeks mean every crusader come and every catholic that immigrate to Greece.

the only who became Greeks are 2
1 Aromani
2 arbanitas,
the rest went away,
Bulgaro-serbs moved to McDonaldia
turks went away
Franks had left 1 generation after the crusade
and venicians?
I don't know how many came and why?
in fact Libro d' oro sais the oposite
venicians if they want to go they go if want to stay they stay,
the Muslims of thrace have their own 2 languages turks and Greek-pomak (Greco-slavic)

all the populations you mention exept aromani are not more than 250 000
in 1821 when slaughters were done, and people were impaled,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A FOREIGNER WOULD STAY HERE, OR NEUTRAL?
1821 was not the kossovo war. it was a primitive war, in Europe the knew about Napoleon tactics but here was slain them all,
search the Suliotet case to understand.
end of story provoker, I am not going to put another thread in bucket cause an albanian believes bullshit,
 
are you nuts? who said about 1 type? even 2 brothers are not the same?

and remember Greeks had goverments at pergamos Seleykeia Alexandreia,
and after 1204 and the damn crusaders we also took the sceptres, like the 4 areas
Epirus Smyrna Mystra and Trapezous,
better read better the greek history,

we never had 1 goverment eve at alexanders time Lakedaimonians had another goverment and Magnas had their owns,

and is only <400 years,
Hello Trebizond was Greek
in fact first general of Greek revolt was from there, and Greek revolt started in Romania, hello

I know what are talking about and where you go again the thread,
just 1 word wake up we survided for 400 years and we are still here,
while you (you know who) served who?
now next thing is to say me that greeks had dissapear and the today are all foreigners,

well you anti-greek feeling again expressed,
ALL WHO FOUGHT WITH US AT 1821 HAVE A HOMELAND,
ALL WHO FOUGHT AGAINST US GO TO HELL,

now about fyrom
the answer is known, get .... zanipolo

catalans in Greece?

genouates in greece?
in fact Greeks moved to Genoua and fought for genovese,
franks? yes exist at 1871 they were about 40 000 and today about 60 000
with the word Franks Greeks mean every crusader come and every catholic that immigrate to Greece.

the only who became Greeks are 2
1 Aromani
2 arbanitas,
the rest went away,
Bulgaro-serbs moved to McDonaldia
turks went away
Franks had left 1 generation after the crusade
and venicians?
I don't know how many came and why?
in fact Libro d' oro sais the oposite
venicians if they want to go they go if want to stay they stay,
the Muslims of thrace have their own 2 languages turks and Greek-pomak (Greco-slavic)

all the populations you mention exept aromani are not more than 250 000
in 1821 when slaughters were done, and people were impaled,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A FOREIGNER WOULD STAY HERE, OR NEUTRAL?
1821 was not the kossovo war. it was a primitive war, in Europe the knew about Napoleon tactics but here was slain them all,
search the Suliotet case to understand.
end of story provoker, I am not going to put another thread in bucket cause an albanian believes bullshit,


Who is anti greek is you. I just give the facts , you never heard of the catalan company which became the navaresse company ( from catalan areas) , you never heard of Pedro de San Superano who allied with the tusacn Nerio I Acciaioli who was ruler of the duchy of Athens!! who do you think threw the franks out of Greece.

You never heard of the Genoese, Pisan and Venetians wars for the Aegean islands ( duchy of Naxos ) plus cyprus.

Are you Greek? , if so , what historical rubbish did they teach you in school.....maybe its better than the complete bullshit taught about italian history in Italian schools. I think you cannot be as bad as that.

Explain to me how 2 brothers can be ethnically different, only way I know is if they are born by different mothers, then they would be only half-brothers.
 
Who is anti greek is you. I just give the facts , you never heard of the catalan company which became the navaresse company ( from catalan areas) , you never heard of Pedro de San Superano who allied with the tusacn Nerio I Acciaioli who was ruler of the duchy of Athens!! who do you think threw the franks out of Greece.

You never heard of the Genoese, Pisan and Venetians wars for the Aegean islands ( duchy of Naxos ) plus cyprus.

Are you Greek? , if so , what historical rubbish did they teach you in school.....maybe its better than the complete bullshit taught about italian history in Italian schools. I think you cannot be as bad as that.

Explain to me how 2 brothers can be ethnically different, only way I know is if they are born by different mothers, then they would be only half-brothers.



who the pirates?
the catalan company from sicily?
hahaha not one them survived I am sure,

I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk
the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains
they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens

the most unwanted dukes,
 
who the pirates?
the catalan company from sicily?
hahaha not one them survived I am sure,

I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk
the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains
they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens

the most unwanted dukes,

LOL if you say that from 1205 - 1458 is insignificant that this period had catalan, gascon and tuscans as part of the duchy of Athens, then the period of 1824 to 2011 , which is 187 years must also be insignificant , do you agree, :grin:
 
You didn't just say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parst of Greece you claimed that while Greeks think that they belong to the same ethnicity they actually descend from a multitude of ethnicities which I have prooven to be wrong.

Greeks do descend from a multitude of ethnicities : Paleolithic Balkanese (I2a), Minoans from Anatolia (J2), Caucasian (G2a) and Levantine (E1b1b, T, J1) Neolithic farmers, Proto-Indo-Europeans (mostly R1b), Celts (mostly R1b), Romans (mixed R1b, J2, J1, G2a, I2a), Bulgars (R1a), Slavs (R1a and I2a2), etc. Are you denying that too ?
 
who the pirates?
the catalan company from sicily?
hahaha not one them survived I am sure,

I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk
the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains
they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens

the most unwanted dukes,


go to this link and go to bottom and click any coloured dot to get a history of people who influenced greek ethnity

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html
 
LOL if you say that from 1205 - 1458 is insignificant that this period had catalan, gascon and tuscans as part of the duchy of Athens, then the period of 1824 to 2011 , which is 187 years must also be insignificant , do you agree, :grin:

they came at 1303 in Con/polis,

and they slain Turks Greeks bulgraians italians alans franks
the toughest mercenairies, no one could prevail them ,
they even raided monasteries at mount Athos, there are many stories about them in Athen and evoia people,
1800 of them in 1 day slain 8500 alans their kids and their wifes,

they left at 1396, they were rulers of athens from 1331 to 1396.


go to this link and go to bottom and click any coloured dot to get a history of people who influenced greek ethnity

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html

I know simply all that era greeks name it Φραγκοκρατια Frank rulling ERA,

same time 4 Greek kingdoms , duches and kings that last 10-20-60 years,
All day wars
in Peloponese I heard about a castle that venice sold it to turks and then buy it back etc
they even try to dwell islands with no water, alliances like Greeks + turks vs Venice,
Venice +turks against Genouates, venice +greeks vs turks, etc

except Ionic islands, they survived in few areas in aegean, became maritime and united with locals,
island like Psarra and chios, and later syros
while the catholic community from Thessaloniki have no connection with Boniface, but from a monastry of Lazaristes,

Enetokratia in some areas in peloponese crete and aegean islands has influence in modern greeks but not that much to assimilate locals, in fact they lived in the laws of locals,
in Corfu there is a story about a piazza where they forbid Greeks and islanders to enter,
only those who became Catholics and then Venicians allowed to enter,
many rich Greeks send their kids to venice and to learn language and trade and then back,
many other areas like Crimea Chios used Genoa and later Tergest.
according area they had a small colony in another state, and they trade,
cretans had in Spain and venice,
peloponese in Venice and Marselle
Chios and smyrna and pontic Greeks had genoua
pontic also used romania to trade with Austria,
Makedonians trade with cretans and austrians via Serbia (monasterion-petz-seragevo or belgrade road)
Epirotes with marselle and Venice,
that times were strange, a kind of monopoly trading and production,
for example the chios mastiche (gum) was a monopoly of Con/polis church and Cenouates in west,
so they both protected locals,
do you know many titles were sold?
read about the boniface of montferrat,
they had titles with out the land!!!!!!!!!!
they sold titles to other who just wanted to have prestige,

a greek moto is after one cretan who change religion became ruler in crete and as first tax all cretans send him pumkins
κολοκυθια στον Πατερο

in 1821 the ones who manage to be connected and loved by locals like the syros island created naval force and fought against turks, the case of Venice Turks etc and later austrians help greeks to hide, and strike,
for example a great revolt hero kolokotronis was hiding in ionic islands

the story for Catalan company in greek literature say that every morning, when other wash faces, they use black pork fat to wash faces,
and that was correct cause they use a black pork fat for their armors.
 
In my mind laziness does not involve unwillingness. There are days when I feel too tired to work, when I want to laze around. Laziness is not something one decides, nor is it a permanent condition. It just depends on the energy and motivation one has at a particular time. Extreme heat can make me lazy, but that doesn't mean I am always lazy. Genetic anaemia on the other hand is much more serious as it is a permanent condition and is incurable (although regular treatment can alleviate the symptoms). So I find it funny that you should criticise my use of the term "lazy" when for me it is much more benign than "suffering from sickle cell anaemia" (and neither have anything to do with personal choice).

I know it wasn't your intention to insult anyone and I got your interpretation of the word 'lazy'. But the problem is that most people place a different, more judging association on it. So I just wouldn't have used the word 'lazy'.


If these diseases have no influence on poor economic performance, then the alternative possibilities might end up being more disturbing. I am almost certain that widespread anaemia has a negative impact on productivity. It surely isn't the only reason, but it is an important factor.

I agree.


Sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia are extremely rare in northern Europe (under 1%, and perhaps under 0.1% of the population). The former is tested by 23andMe, by the way, so it's easy to make a quick survey among users to confirm. I have access to the data from about 30 people (mostly of northern European descent) through extended sharing, and none have the sickle-cell mutation.

I didn't want to reject these facts. But as iapetoc already figured out, we might find other diseases with a higher ratio in Northern European countries, like obesity, coronary diseases, diabetes, depressions etc... which in turns should balance the lower activity in Southern Europe caused by sickle-cell disease or thalassemia.


How much credit can you give to a haughty, condescending Roman politician when describing people he doesn't know well (and certainly hasn't lived among) that the mighty, civilised Romans like to belittle as "barbarians" ? It's not an objective point of view, and it isn't based on solid knowledge of the people discussed. It's merely a sort of self-flattering propaganda that the Romans loved to write. Frankly, the Romans accusing others of gambling and alcoholism, when they partied in Rome half of the year, indulging in orgies and gambling on charioteers and gladiators ? :rolleyes:

Hey come on... You quoted a Greek writer about the outstanding looks of Alexander the Great, who lived 400 years earlier than him, and you would consider that as objective, credible and unbiased? Tacitus at least lived at the same time of the people he described, and he wasn't all negative about Germans, he also described them as loyal and brave, skilled manual workers and warriors.


Diligence has absolutely nothing to do with individualism ! I don't know how you can liken the two ? East Asians are among the most collectivist (anti-individualistic) people on Earth ! The most individualistic Europeans are not necessarily Germanic either. The Brits and Irish are possibly the most individualistic, and their ancestry is first "Celtic" (or ancient Briton) then Germanic. German, Dutch and Scandinavian people are somewhat collectivist in their sense of egalitarianism and value of the common welfare (they are similar to the Japanese in this regard). The French and the Italians (especially northern Italians) can be quite individualistic. In business for instance, collectivist countries will favour big corporations (like the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, but also the Germans), while very individualistic societies have a profusion of self-employed people and small companies (like Italy). According to the cultural psychologist Geert Hofstede, the most individualistic Europeans are the British, followed by the Dutch and Hungarians, then the Italians and the Belgians.

Linking diligence to individualism actually was just sort of an affective question, not meant that seriously, sorry!
It is just that we don't know that much about the combination of genetic heritage and environmental/cultural influences yet which impact character traits of people. My point is that I don't want to deny either or, but as long as we don't have proven scientific facts yet (which I'm sure will not come that far away from now), I sometimes get a little over-reactive when someone sells them as proven facts. But this applies to practically anything which is allegedly scientific. Everyone should be allowed to give his or her assumptions, but shouldn't sell them as facts!
 
I didn't want to reject these facts. But as iapetoc already figured out, we might find other diseases with a higher ratio in Northern European countries, like obesity, coronary diseases, diabetes, depressions etc... which in turns should balance the lower activity in Southern Europe caused by sickle-cell disease or thalassemia.

I am sure that plenty of (rare) diseases originated among northern Europeans, but I cannot think of one disease that substantially affects the economic output and that is much more prevalent in northern Europe. Coronary diseases affects primarily older people. Diabetes is actually less prevalent in northern Europe than in the rest of Europe and reaches a worldwide maximum in the Middle East. Seasonal affective disorder ("winter blues") could be one, but it is environmental (low sunlight in winter) rather than genetic, and is largely compensated by the other types of depressions which can have all sorts of causes (loss of a relative or close friend, being heartbroken, bad luck in life, losing one's job, or just a genetic disposition towards negativity). The rates of overall depressive disorders are unevenly distributed across Europe according to this map. Surprisingly, France, which is usually associated with superior quality of life, has one of the highest depression and suicide rate in Europe.

Hey come on... You quoted a Greek writer about the outstanding looks of Alexander the Great, who lived 400 years earlier than him, and you would consider that as objective, credible and unbiased? Tacitus at least lived at the same time of the people he described, and he wasn't all negative about Germans, he also described them as loyal and brave, skilled manual workers and warriors.

I just wrote that if one had to choose to believe one or the other, the Greek historians were probably more knowledgeable about Alexander's life than some Italian artist.

My point is that I don't want to deny either or, but as long as we don't have proven scientific facts yet (which I'm sure will not come that far away from now), I sometimes get a little over-reactive when someone sells them as proven facts. But this applies to practically anything which is allegedly scientific. Everyone should be allowed to give his or her assumptions, but shouldn't sell them as facts!

The problem is that you perceive what I write as facts rather than assumptions. Personally I do not draw a clear line between the two, because I know very well that so-called scientific studies presented as proven facts can and will most of the time be contradicted by other scientific studies. This is especially true when it comes to medicine, simply because of the tremendous complexity of the human body and the immense amount of factors involved (among which the millions of genetic variations between individuals). As for history it is even more blurry than science because of the subjectivity and varying point of views of different sides telling the same events.
 

This thread has been viewed 101939 times.

Back
Top