Macedonians

[Elias2]

Wrong!!! Barbarian today is insult but not in the time of greek awncient. Just read the ancient sources, and you will see, that barbarian means those who don't know greek.

For example: Deutch (in german), Nemci (in serbian), in serbian Nemci means "he that cannot speak"

"The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Egyptians, Persians, Medes, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans and Carthaginians. It, in fact, became a common term to refer to all foreigners. However in various occasions, the term was also used by Greeks, especially the Athenians, to deride other Greek tribes and states (such as Epirotes, Eleans, Macedonians and Aeolic-speakers) in a pejorative and politically motivated manner.[3] "

"The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17]Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the ArgiveEpidaurian lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys).[21]"

Then there is the overwhelming archeological evidence that proves epirots and macedons were greeks.I don't know what your trying to prove by trying to de-hellenizing the ancient epirots, hopefull its not the same as FYROM's attempts at trying to de-hellenize the macedons.

 

[Elias2]

The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?

Like what?

 

[Zajaz]

Like what?

Archeological examinations bring up in light many cultural objects which were same for both people. It is generally accepted that Illyrians held the plain of Emathia into their direct control for centuries and thus their influence is deep rooted in Macedonia. I've seen many helmets used by Macedonian warriors and are similar with those used by Illyrian ones. In the fashion of wearing the mantle and arranging their hair, the Macedonians bore a great resemblance to the Illyrians (Strab. vii. p. 327).

 

[Zajaz]

Then there is the overwhelming archeological evidence that proves epirots and macedons were greeks.I don't know what your trying to prove by trying to de-hellenizing the ancient epirots, hopefull its not the same as FYROM's attempts at trying to de-hellenize the macedons.

Elias I gave to you an answer hopefully to be taken into consideration. I find as strange why do you avoid to give me your opinion about the points I've argued.

I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such. I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.
Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.

The attempts of FYROM to engage into ancient affairs are mainly motivated by political purposes. There is no other question more discussed among historical circles than Macedonian one. The opinion about non-Greekness of Macedonians it date back to XVIII century onwards and it is still popular among modern scholarship, although there are some other historians who support the Greekness of Macedonians.

 

[iapetoc]

May I ask a simple question? If yes...have you read any historical book in your whole life? Because I am afraid you have got no clue what are you talking about. I agree that Pelasgians gave birth to both Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscans, Cretans and Greeks but it seems obvious you aren't able to comprehend the very simple fact: modern Albanians can be considered (not without justice) as being direct descendants of Pelasgians. I am not sure whether you know that the major mainstream of modern historians is that Albanians owe their origin to Illyrians and Thracians. In addition with this, there are a plenty of Pelasgic toponymes, names of gods that can be etymologized by the Albanian. Even the culture of Albanians do represent in a large extent a living Homeric heritage, that has attracted many scholars to deal with it.

But let take aside for a while your obsession with Pelasgians. The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?

So can you turn back in topic? Thnx

that is the point, Homeric, toponyms, etc can be etymologist by pelasgic Albanian, pelasgic Greek, pelasgic Thracian, and IE language,
as an example I give you the Aspetos, toponym of a city that Elias2 wrote and neander find another meaning
aspetos IE (negative) Α-σπετω = un speech
neander meanind aspetos = runs fast (in greek is no fast)
both are not pelagic although NEander make them pelasgic
un-speak
un-speed
no one is Greek- pelasgic or Albanian pelasgic but clear R1b or R1a
(Germanic) IE, propably it is connected with the Druids (Driopes) that lived in south Thessaly and Phthia, and not to Ill or Ell pelasgic.
same is with homer, Homer spoke aeolian and ionian, ionian is considered clear anatolian-pelasgic and aeolian IE and pelasgic,

Zajaz the wrong approach is that you claim every Pelasgic ot thracian to Illyrian,
same happened by Greek nationalists who even today claim every land as Greece

every theory is wellcome, But every theory can have an answer,

Now lets see the names the toponyms etc

mt Olymp
Ηρακλειον Heraklia
Διον dion
Πυθειον
Αζορος
Πετρα
Μπαλλα Bala
Φυλακαι (σερβια)
Πυδνα
Αιγες
Πελλα
Αλορος
Λειβηθρα
Καρυα
Εδεσσα
Τυρισσα
Σανη
Θερμαι
Αλλαντεια
Ηρακλεια
Ιχναι
Κλιται
Βραγυλαι
Ιδομεναι
Αρναια
Αιανη
Αργος
Αρνισσα
Κελλαι
Βοκεροι
Αργιλος
Στιβερισσα - Στυβερα
Ορεστια
Ελιμεια
Λεβαια
Πλουρινα (clear Semitic-Pelasgic)
Λυγκιστις Λυγκεας
Γκρετις Γκρετιστα
Πελιον
Χρυσονδυον
etc
the Dexaroi Dessarete Greek Tribe and the Dessaroans Illyrian tribe
Mt Νυμφαιο or as the local name it in purpose ΝΕΒΕ ΣΚΑ = NEVE SKA
Mt Τρικκλαριον (area Tricca(la) where makedonians lived in thessaly)
Βιτρινετσι -Βιδρονησι Brygian-Makedonian Bidra (water animal)
Λυχνιτις Lychnitis -> Lin and Ohrid also change n Lyncistis
In Macedonian and the other South Slavic languages, the name of the city is Ohrid (Охрид). In Albanian, the city is known as Ohër or Ohri. Historical names include the Latin Lychnidus[5] or the Greek names Lychnidos (Λύχνιδος), Ochrida (Οχρίδα, Ωχρίδα) and Achrida (Αχρίδα), the latter two of which are still in modern usage.

Above and west the Lychnitis is the Echeleians which are considered Illyrians, although the name is connected with Greek Acheleians Αχελωοι.
What Illyrians, Cadmus son Created Illyrians and Ψadmus was Pelasgic, and cadmus Cretaed Greeks also
Atalante - Taulante
Echeleians - Achelleians



now lets see the upper makedonia
main states Orestias and Ellimeia,
population of Orestias ArcadoCypriot
population of Ellimeia Mycenean (achaic- which I believe is similar to Gek)
that is why the before Argeans, Ellimeians worship god Eorda
Makedonian Αρδα Arida arda
sanshqrit Jorda
German Erda
the IE name of
Latin Tera
East Thracian Sirris
Greek koine Hera
Arcadic Γεορδα - Γορδιος Δεσμος - Gordian knot
Probably Eordeans were R1 people
In modern Greek godess Arda has words after Hellenistic and not in Attic
like αρδευσις -> irrigate

as you see zajaz Makedonians Argeians were Greeks, as also that
Katadesmoi or defixiones were spells written on non-perishable material

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A0%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%82

Greek

1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-] [edit] English

1. Of [Theti]ma and Dionysophon the ritual wedding and the marriage I bind by a written spell, and of all other2. wo[men], widows and maidens, but of Thetima in particular, and I entrust upon Makron* and3. [the] demons. And that only whenever I dig out and unroll and re-read this,4. [then] may they wed Dionysophon, but not before; and may he never wed any woman but me;5. and may grow old with Dionysophon, and no one else. I [am] your supplicant:6. Have pity on [Phil?]a*, dear demons, for I am Dagina* of all my dear ones and abandoned.7. But please keep this for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably8. but let me become happy and blessed.


THE ILLYRIANS YOU MENTION ARE IN THE BORDERS OF MAKEDONIA,
simply Pelasgic greek Arcadocypriot achaic and aeolian the Upper Makedonian
simply Thettalian Doric and aeolian the argean Makedonia, simply thraco-Pelasgic the east Makedonia,


Makedonians Dynasty came from Doric Aiginion are Ishtiaiotis of Thessaly, and manage to Unite all Greek Pelasgic areas

ZAJEZ
read that carefully
The Dassaretae (Greek: Δασσαρέται), or Dexaroi, (Greek: Δεξάροι) were an ancient Greek[1][2] tribe of Epirus on the border with Illyria near Lake Ohrid.[3] They were the northern-most subtribe of the Chaonians.[4] Theopompus writes of fourteen Epirotian tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Dexaroi were a part. The geographer Hecataeus of Miletus of the 6th century BC described the Dexaroi, the most northern Chaonian tribe, as a Greek-speaking people. Their cities were Pellion, Antipatrea, Chrysondyon, Gertous (or Gerous) and Creonion.[5]
An Illyrian tribe of the same or similar name laid further north between the Dardani and the Ardiaei, which is often confused with that of the Dassaretae of the (Greek) Chaonian group.[6][7][8][9][10] This is confirmed by the fact, which Appian of Alexandria described in his "Illyrian wars" and namely, according to the Greek mythology, Illyrius, the ancestor of the Illyrians, had a daughter, Dassaro, from whom sprang the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretae (or Dasaretii).[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi
what Epirotans barbarian as Neander says,
EPIROTANS from Apeiros (Chaos-Chaonia)
WERE GREEK AND NOT ILLYRIAN Speaking
simply when Christians slain Greeks, Illyrians inhabited Greek areas to replace the empty,
as with attica arbanites 1100 1200 AD after Byzantine 1rst and latin 2nd invitation. and the Normand invasion as the alliance of Serbs with Albanians against Epirus Despotate time dehellenized area, which today has only relicks of older Hellenes.


Thank if you read it.


Even Slavic Makedonians who want to change boarders mention Cadmus and Lychnitis
and respect the Aegean to them MAkedonia, Greek face of Makedonia to them, simply they dream of an utopian Makedonian state with 2-3 languages and churches, that is not possible,
that is why Greek accept the Geographical term Makedonia but not the Nationality and the relation with Ancient Makedonia, and names that state as Slavic Makedonia.
only Albanians deny it and say that Dorians were Illyrians MAkedonians are Illyrians and Epirotans are Illyrians, just for nationalistic reasons.

simply it is more easy to unite Greek and Albanians (except religion) than to unite Greeks and Turks
as is more easy to unite Fyrom with Bulgaria or Serbia than I2a Romania with Bulgaria.
so nationalists spread bullshit just in case they grow,


And about modern Albanians Have more Romano-celt R1b than R1a
they are More Romans Than Anatolian,
simply albanians are not more Pelasgic than Greeks,
Just Albanians pushed the Pelasgic issue that became Idealistic
and Greeks don't pushed it, cause it is believed as Understandably.
in fact the claim that Albanians are the origin Pelasgian is ridiculous
What Would Cretans say who were the heart of Pelasgic.

 

[iapetoc]

Neander
Ematheia is sandy,
In fact there are areas with 85% sand
sand is from 0,5 mm to 1,5 mm
coccometrical analysis in the soil gives from 40-70% sand and 10-15 Clay,
the fertility has to do with water and sea lavel, in Fact mountain Makedonia is not fertile at all due to pure minerals, and big Ca concentration, the bless is the the rivers and not the soil, cause of the betonit (coloidal Argilus) the soil keeps some water in surface, cause sand dont keep at all,
betonit is plant strangle in lands with high Ca, but sand help and the colloidal is not that strong, I know cause I m Phd Civil Hydraylic Engineer,
and I have been in Albania to make search for water plants in 1998 and 2004,
simply the Hydro plants Auth, after NATO demand, designed for river Devul (Δεβολης) today are a triger to corruption in Tirrana. you know the story,
Believe me 4 rivers area without sand nowhere in the world
so if you don't Believe me ask a civil Engineer in your country,
Ematheia Pieria Sindos Chalastra is full of sand,
in fact in analysis I made for river Αισωνας Πιερια sand reach 98% in the deep flux and 64% at the bangs in some points with 0,002-6 deviation

 

[Elias2]

Elias I gave to you an answer hopefully to be taken into consideration. I find as strange why do you avoid to give me your opinion about the points I've argued.

I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such. I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.
Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.

Actually Epirots were hellenes, as I discuessed with our other friend, and you both seem to want to connect genetics with culture which are two very differnt things. Being Hellenic back then had really no bearing on genetics and more of the way of living, which of course you know I hope.

 

[Elias2]

I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such.

Are you joking? I'll just repost this;

"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17] Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the Argive and Epidaurian[21] PlutarchPyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys). mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek).[22][23]"

I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.

If what you say are true, what does that have to do with culture?

Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.

are you tring to say the epirots thought of themselves as Illyrians? a term that was invented by the greek Illyrius? source please, beacuse I have seen sources that listed them as hellenic.

"The Molossian Aeacidae dynasty managed to create the first centralized state in Epirus from about 370 BC onwards, expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes. The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon, in part against the common threat of Illyrian[7] and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias, niece of Arybbas of Epirus, married King Philip II of Macedon. She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great. On the death of Arybbas, Alexander the Molossian, uncle of Alexander the Great of Macedon, succeeded to the throne with the title King of Epirus.[8] raids,"

It seems that the Illyrians were diffenatly not regarded as epirot or macedon, even by themselves.

The attempts of FYROM to engage into ancient affairs are mainly motivated by political purposes. There is no other question more discussed among historical circles than Macedonian one. The opinion about non-Greekness of Macedonians it date back to XVIII century onwards and it is still popular among modern scholarship, although there are some other historians who support the Greekness of Macedonians.

There are some to support the greekness of macedon? um, do you know that alexander spread hellenism in the middle east? There is a letter signed to Mr. Obama with over 120 signatures of professors of classics saying that macedons were greeks. I believe them over anyone's opinion I read over the internet.

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

You like alot of other people are making a very simple mistake. You think genetics defines a people, which is rasict at the very core, when it's really culture that does. To be a hellenes it didn't matter what your DNA was (they didn't even know what that was), what matter is that you adopted the greek way of llife, which the epirots did, and so did the macedons. Therefore they were both hellenic people.

 

[Zajaz]

If what you say are true, what does that have to do with culture?

I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?

You like alot of other people are making a very simple mistake. You think genetics defines a people, which is rasict at the very core, when it's really culture that does.

You're confusing me with other members because I've little knowledge on this field. I also agree that Genetics sometimes passes into racism...so it is a very delicate field to deal with. So I deliberately avoid from taking any position regarding genetics. When I decide to deal with ancient matters I do this only by using historical texts and archeological evidences.

Here I shall present a couple of more recent discoveries regarding cultural affinities of the Epirots:

'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli. But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA' (Jaques 1995:80/81)

Bibliography:

Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'

are you tring to say the epirots thought of themselves as Illyrians? a term that was invented by the greek Illyrius? source please, beacuse I have seen sources that listed them as hellenic.

We will never know accurately how Epirotes perceived themselves because there were quite different conditions to define ethnic identity in ancient times quite different from modern ones. We know for certain that from all Epirotes only ruling elites tried to link themselves with Greek genealogies...which for the sake of truth was very fashionable among ancient peoples. I am going to present a well-informative text written by Britanic experts:

Epirus

The territory of Epirus was the mountainous coastal region of modern north-western Greece and southern Albania. To the north was Illyria and to the east Macedonia. To the Greeks the Epirotes were barbarians, although their ancestry was Dorian. Epirus was a poor land, rich only in warriors. The dominant tribe of Epirus were the Molossians.

His Family

The only Epirotes whom the Greeks regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, royal house of the Molossians. Pyrrhus was a member of this family. The Aeacidae claimed descent from Achilles. Olympias, wife of Philip II of Macedon and mother of Alexander the Great, was an Aeacidae princess; making Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander. In 334BC, when Alexander the Great began his conquest of the Persian Empire, the King of Epirus, Alexander the Molossian (uncle of Pyrrhus), attempted to conquer southern Italy. In 331BC he died in battle against the Romans. He was succeeded by Aeacides, father of Pyrrhus, but in 317BC Aeacides was driven from Epirus by a rebellion2. After this Epirus became a tribal federation instead of a kingdom.

His Early Career

His Path to a Throne

Glaucias, King of Illyria, gave sanctuary to Pyrrhus as a child, and placed him on the throne of Epirus when he was twelve. He allied himself with Demetrius, son of Antigonus I3 of Macedon. In 302BC, whilst absent from his kingdom, he was dethroned by a palace coup and replaced by a kinsman Neoptolemus4. Lacking a kingdom, he fought for Demetrius in Syria, earning himself a reputation as a brave and talented warrior. Sent to Alexandria as a hostage under the terms of the peace treaty between Demetrius and Ptolemy I Soter5, he was befriended by Ptolemy, who restored him to the throne of Epirus in 297BC. Initially Pyrrhus shared his throne with Neoptolemus but soon had him assassinated. His rule in Epirus was absolute from now on.

There are some to support the greekness of macedon? um, do you know that alexander spread hellenism in the middle east?

Let me inform you for an another analogy that refute your claim: Irish emigrants who came together with other English in North America spoke English but Irish aren't English anyway. If Alexander the Great spread Greek culture in all corners of known world this speaks little about his ethnicity which is believed to be non-Greek. At least, ancient texts says so.

There is a letter signed to Mr. Obama with over 120 signatures of professors of classics saying that macedons were greeks. I believe them over anyone's opinion I read over the internet.

Yes I know but this doesn't mean that all of them are major academics regarding ancient Macedonian matters. Many of them haven't made any research into Macedonian ethnogenesis so it would be quite ridicule to base on them. I can list also a number of modern scholars who says the contrary of your claim.

 

[iapetoc]

I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?

Actually that is almost true , Illyrians a major part of them are Pelasgic and
Epirotans are Pelasgic Also, But Epirotans were Greeks
YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU DENY THAT GREEKS ARE PELASGIC AND YOU ONLY ACCEPT THAT PELASGIC = ALBANIAN, WELL THAT IS MISTAKEN.
the most original Pelasgic if we can use that term are minoan Cretan or eteo-Cretans

But as you see in my posts even in area of Ohrid Greek language was spoken,
The colonisation has to do with Merchantise,
as an example I give you the colony of Phasis in Georgia, an alone city which was a Huge merchant area, In fact that city was Build by Greeks and was protected By all Colchians even after Christianity times,
The Greeks Build colonies not only to dwell in some areas But mainly to push emporio (trade) in other kingdoms with out the inner land taxes and fear of bandits,
in roman times it is estimated that 1 000 000 Greeks (wide historical Greece) lived aboard ships from Spain to Azotos and from Black Sea to Egypt,
the ship ruins in Kythera is a ship that could live more than 200 people, a living floating village,
In fact in Makedonia Greeks also send colonies to push merchant,
Atheneans build colonies in the Heart of Makedonia, cities like Olynthos
and Ennea Dromoi just to trade minerals

now the Hellenization,
ALTHOUGH YOU CALL ME UNHISTORICAL AND GO READ A BOOK AS YOU TOLD ME
I SEND YOU THIS

The Dassaretae (Greek: Δασσαρέται), or Dexaroi, (Greek: Δεξάροι) were an ancient Greek[1][2] tribe of Epirus on the border with Illyria near Lake Ohrid.[3] They were the northern-most subtribe of the Chaonians.[4] Theopompus writes of fourteen Epirotian tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Dexaroi were a part. The geographer Hecataeus of Miletus of the 6th century BC described the Dexaroi, the most northern Chaonian tribe, as a Greek-speaking people. Their cities were Pellion, Antipatrea, Chrysondyon, Gertous (or Gerous) and Creonion.[5]

simply Chaonia from Chaon of Troy
According to Strabo, the Chaonians (along with the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus.[3] The IllyriansPeriplus of Pseudo-Scylax[4] occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes.

ok I am uhistorical or the books I read are wrong,

Besides even Arian IF YOU EVER READ HIM GIVES THE CONNECTION OF UPPER MAKEDONIA WITH GREEKS,

Understand it Glaukias was an enemy of Makedonians that is why he mixed in Epirus, in order to change alliances of Epirus with Makedonia,
Gkaukias and Alketas is political against Kassandros and not national


And about Alexander was Argean
Now if to you Argean or Spartan Or Cretan or Mollosean is Not Greek Cause is not From Area of Graikos the Greece , you are right,
Spartans Molloseans Cretans etc are not Greeks


THEN I AGREE WITH YOU
ALEXANDER WAS NOT GREEK

ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ WAS HELLENAS ELL

in fact the biggest among all Ελληνες
Spartans Molossean Cretan etc


THE LANGUAGE OF ALEXANDER

and remember Irish went to USA which officially language was English
Irish emigrants spoke english cause they were not the rulers,
Argeans were the rulers, why to change the language
HOW MANY KINGS CHANGE THE LANGUAGE OF PEOPLE,
MOST TIMES KINGS CHANGE LANGUAGE AND NOT THE PEOPLE

King Otto when came to Greece he learned Greek, he did not push people to learn German as he was

The kings learn the people Language not the people

Simply a wrong example, the irish and the English,
cause it is more wise to kings change language and speak the Pella language, than the whole kingdom to change language
that arguement is not correct and drops to thrash can

The above is the Makedonian low class language
Clear Hellenic.
so even in low class people spoke Hellenic

no scholar, no man, no God can change it
MAKEDONIANS LOW CLASS SPOKE HELLENIC

THERE CAN NOT BE A BIGGER PROVE

 

[Elias2]

I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?

Well, it was the corinthians colonizing epirot land. They didn't see it as greek colonizing greek but city state colonizing city state. Alot of inter city state war happened in those days.

You're confusing me with other members because I've little knowledge on this field. I also agree that Genetics sometimes passes into racism...so it is a very delicate field to deal with. So I deliberately avoid from taking any position regarding genetics. When I decide to deal with ancient matters I do this only by using historical texts and archeological evidences.

You say this but then later in your post say to me alexander wasn't greek beacuse of his genetics and not his culture, so which side do you take, genetics defines a people or culture?

We will never know accurately how Epirotes perceived themselves because there were quite different conditions to define ethnic identity in ancient times quite different from modern ones. We know for certain that from all Epirotes only ruling elites tried to link themselves with Greek genealogies...which for the sake of truth was very fashionable among ancient peoples.

ok, but the people did speak greek; "The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers."

Let me inform you for an another analogy that refute your claim: Irish emigrants who came together with other English in North America spoke English but Irish aren't English anyway. If Alexander the Great spread Greek culture in all corners of known world this speaks little about his ethnicity which is believed to be non-Greek. At least, ancient texts says so.

What ancient texts? I have seem some that he himself says he is greek by decent, born from greek gods, so you can't just accept some and ignore others, if he himself says he is greek what else do you want? It seems you do define people by genetics, which is one way to look at things but I don't see things that way. Your analogy is interesting, if you sub the irish for macedons and southern greeks as english, but they're both british arn't they? It was the british empire or the english empire? In Canada, if the Canadians want to be pariotic about their heritage, they fly the Union Jack (British Flag) and not the english or Irish flag. Then there is quebec lol

Yes I know but this doesn't mean that all of them are major academics regarding ancient Macedonian matters. Many of them haven't made any research into Macedonian ethnogenesis so it would be quite ridicule to base on them. I can list also a number of modern scholars who says the contrary of your claim.

Acutally they are classic professors who specialize in the time period and have gotten their PhD's, so they do indeed know what they are talking about.

It seems you take the position of genetic identification of peoples, which is a debunked theory. Northern French arn't genetically the same as southern french. Northern spanish are different then southern spanish. Northern italians/southern Italians. Northern albanians are diferent then southern albanians. The same can be said for every country around the globe. If it doesn't matter today why does it matter in ancient times?

If you want to discuss the ancient hellenes, which, I hope you agree with me here, is more of a cultural identification (ethos) and not a genetic label, then you have to aknowledge that epirots and macedons, dispite that they might of been genetically different from southern greeks, were hellenic people. I don't think its odd that there were illyrian elements either, they boarder each other, but epirots were not Illyrian, Epirots formed an alliance with macedons to prevent raid from Illyria.

And if I may, can I ask you what your definition is of being Illyrian? If we are going to talk about what is Illyria. It is a geographical definition? Ancient Illyria comprised what is now northern albania, croatia, Bosnia,Montenegro, and serbia.

 

[iapetoc]

just a delete post

 

[Neander]

It is simple: As Isokrati says Hellens are not still a nation, it is a culture. Then this culture was not only ofr greeks, but of Illyrians Epirotes, Macedonians, Romans, etc.

It was a mix of thracian (Bendida, Dyonis), Illyrian (Zeus), greek, anatolian (Cybela), Asiatic (Alphabet), etc.

It was not only greek, it was a mediterranean civilization which include many peoples, many nations.

Even dorians were somewhere from Illyria and they hed a lot of illyrian words in their dialect. Today dorians "Tzakones and Sfakiots" are of the same race (dinaric) as are Albanians.

Carlton Coon speak of single origin of Montenegrins, Albanians and Dorians.

As for how they became Hellens I have told in another thread. Hellenic language was a deviation of Pelasgian, which is more akin to todays Albanian. Therefore, I said you, the balkan historian which doesnt know albanian language, is a Blind Historian.

Epirotes were not greeks, even if they had some theatres which you identify as greek architeture.

For example we know that all Civilization of todays Balkan (roads, solyters, TV, Radio, Computer), come from the west....

... but please!!!!!

We are not french, we are not english, we are not americans.

We are Balkan peoples. Even that we have computers, radio, TV, etc.

Don't mix civilization with ethny.

Clearly Zajaz has said that Epirotes were akin to Illyrians, because so say ancient writers. If you don't believe ancient writers, then, what you believe???

 

[Zajaz]

Well, it was the corinthians colonizing epirot land. They didn't see it as greek colonizing greek but city state colonizing city state. Alot of inter city state war happened in those days.

Well...let for the sake of argument admit that Epirotes were Greeks and when Corinthians started colonization they were colonizing the land of any other city-state. Could you tell me to which city-state belong Epirus prior Corinthian expansion? N.G.L. Hammond who is one of the greatest supporters of Epirotes being Greeks is forced to accept that:

Known in the ‘Iliad’ only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially...

Tell me why is that oracle of Dodona received Hellenic influence from the Elean and Corinthian colonies if it was Hellenic from its beginning? This is a very telling fact that witnesses about its non-Greekness.

You say this but then later in your post say to me alexander wasn't greek beacuse of his genetics and not his culture, so which side do you take, genetics defines a people or culture?

I firmly stand for the culture (ethnicity) as primary criterion in determining the identity of one people. In culture we have to include all social traits that shape the inner identity of one people (customs, religion, the way of life, dress, architecture, etc). But before all, I base my opinion especially in the language they had spoken. Judging from what I've read for many years of my studies I can safely conclude that most of available sources says that Macedonian wasn't understood from Greeks. This goes also for the language of Epirotes.

What ancient texts? I have seem some that he himself says he is greek by decent, born from greek gods, so you can't just accept some and ignore others, if he himself says he is greek what else do you want?

Don't you find as strange why Alexander the Phillhellene, though he claimed himself as a Greek, wasn't allowed to participate in Olympic games because he was a barbarian. He was permitted to join in the games only when he invented fictively a genealogy which allegedly consider him as sprung from a Greek hero.

hey boarder each other, but epirots were not Illyrian, Epirots formed an alliance with macedons to prevent raid from Illyria.

Since when the formation of alliances determine the ethnic identity of one people? I may tell you the reverse side of the coin:

The Epirotes were thus unexpectedly preserved: but so far from trying to retaliate on those who had wronged them, or expressing gratitude to those who had come to their relief, they sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnanians to Queen Teuta, and made a treaty with the Illyrians, in virtue of which they engaged henceforth to co-operate with them and against the Achaean and Aetolian leagues. All which proceedings showed conclusively the levity of their conduct towards men who had stood their friends, as well as an originally shortsighted policy in regard to their own interests.

As you can see, Epirotes sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnantias to Queen Teuta and signed a treaty with them to fight against Achean and Aetolian leagues. I think your claim that Epirotes were always allies of Greeks against Illyrians cannot sustain.

And if I may, can I ask you what your definition is of being Illyrian? If we are going to talk about what is Illyria. It is a geographical definition? Ancient Illyria comprised what is now northern albania, croatia, Bosnia,Montenegro, and serbia.

The basic definition of being Illyrian should be the language. Illyrians were all of Western Balkan tribes who spoke akin dialects (of the same language) and share the same origin, culture and social organization. This doesn't mean either that Illyrian wasn't geographical definition because many tribes were tagged as Illyrian (by ancients) only because they were living within Illyria but in fact they were of Celtic origin.

 

[Elias2]

You take ancient inter-city state politics way too seriously when trying to prove your stance, which is your biggest flaw. I don't take ancient political rhetoric too seriously and focus more on the cultural aspects of a society and archeological evidence which is inherently unbiased.


"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times, when hunters and shepherds inhabited the region and constructed large tumuli to bury their leaders.[1] Mycenean tombs present in the region indicate an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenean civilization.[2][3] Certainly, Mycenean remains have been found in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[4][5]
The Dorians invaded Greece from Epirus and Macedonia at the end of the 2nd millennium BC (circa 1100 BC-1000 BC), though the reasons for their migration are obscure. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward into the Greek mainland by the invasion and by the early 1st millennium BC three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes had emerged in Epirus. These were the Chaonians of northwestern Epirus, the MolossiansThesprotians in the south.[6]"



If I can be very blunt, there only place I see the word Illyria used when I read about Epirus is when they describe the baordering peoples.


I think its time we turn our attention onto Illyria and what that is about if we are talking about them. You say that epirots and macedons were Illyrian. Your main identifier is language, which I think is a poor thing to lean on since the Illyrian language is very uncertain because the lack of primary evidence (written/archeological). I'm going to open a seperate thread about Illyria and I'm looking foward to your contributions to the upcomming discussions.

 

[Elias2]

It is simple: As Isokrati says Hellens are not still a nation, it is a culture. Then this culture was not only ofr greeks, but of Illyrians Epirotes, Macedonians, Romans, etc.

It was a mix of thracian (Bendida, Dyonis), Illyrian (Zeus), greek, anatolian (Cybela), Asiatic (Alphabet), etc.

It was not only greek, it was a mediterranean civilization which include many peoples, many nations.

Even dorians were somewhere from Illyria and they hed a lot of illyrian words in their dialect. Today dorians "Tzakones and Sfakiots" are of the same race (dinaric) as are Albanians.

Carlton Coon speak of single origin of Montenegrins, Albanians and Dorians.

As for how they became Hellens I have told in another thread. Hellenic language was a deviation of Pelasgian, which is more akin to todays Albanian. Therefore, I said you, the balkan historian which doesnt know albanian language, is a Blind Historian.

Epirotes were not greeks, even if they had some theatres which you identify as greek architeture.

For example we know that all Civilization of todays Balkan (roads, solyters, TV, Radio, Computer), come from the west....

... but please!!!!!

We are not french, we are not english, we are not americans.

We are Balkan peoples. Even that we have computers, radio, TV, etc.

Don't mix civilization with ethny.

Clearly Zajaz has said that Epirotes were akin to Illyrians, because so say ancient writers. If you don't believe ancient writers, then, what you believe???

You contradict yourself but starting off saying Hellenes was a mediterranian culture then proceed to say Epirots where not hellenic people because of genetics, something unrelated to each other. How were epirots not hellenic? did they speek greek? yes, are the traditional indicators of hellenic culture found in epirus (archeological evidence)? yes.

I believe ancient writers but when it comes to ancient politics you can't think of it as unbiased. I like to look at culture and archeological evidence for more unbiased opinions. You link illyrians with modern day albanians. Please say why in the thread I just opened named "Illyria".

 

[Neander]

You contradict yourself but starting off saying Hellenes was a mediterranian culture then proceed to say Epirots where not hellenic people because of genetics, something unrelated to each other. How were epirots not hellenic? did they speek greek?

Absolutely NO. They talk illyrian. Even when Glaukus raised Pyrrhus as his child, they talk illyrian to eachother.

But as Isokrati says, The hellenic is no more matter of ethniocity

So if you say Epirotes were greeks, you must say for all others, Illyrians, Thracians, Romans etc.

 

[Zajaz]

You take ancient inter-city state politics way too seriously when trying to prove your stance, which is your biggest flaw. I don't take ancient political rhetoric too seriously and focus more on the cultural aspects of a society and archeological evidence which is inherently unbiased.

In fact, I was trying to convince you that ancient alliances tells nothing about the ethnic identity of one people. For this purpose, I cited Polybius's abstract to inform you that Epirotes made alliances even with Illyrians...not always with the Greeks as many believe.

I'm going to open a seperate thread about Illyria and I'm looking foward to your contributions to the upcomming discussions.

It would be pleasure to contribute in that thread!

 

[DejaVu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus
Pyrrhus or Pyrrhos (Greek: Πύρρος, Pyrros; 319/318 BC—272 BC) was a Greek general and statesman of the Hellenistic era. He was king of the Greek tribe of Molossians, of the royal Aeacid house (from ca. 297 BC), and later he became King of Epirus (306-302, 297-272 BC) and Macedon (288-284, 273-272 BC). He was one of the strongest opponents of early Rome. Some of his battles, though successful, cost him heavy losses, from which the term "Pyrrhic victory" was coined.

Pyrrhus was the son of Aeacides and Phthia, a Thessalian woman, and a second cousin of Alexander the Great (via Alexander's mother, Olympias). Pyrrhus was only two years old when his father was dethroned, in 317 BC, his family taking refuge with Glaukias, king of the Taulantians, one of the largest Illyrian tribes. Pyrrhus was raised by Beroea, Glaukias's wife and a Molossian of the Aeacidae dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Glaukias
Glaucias (Greek: Γλαυκίας) was prince or king of the Taulanti, one of the Illyrian tribes.
Glaucias is first mentioned as bringing a considerable force to the assistance of Cleitus of Dardania, another Illyrian prince, against Alexander the Great, in the battle of Pelium335 BC. They were, however, both defeated, and Cleitus was forced to take refuge within the Taulantian territories, whither Alexander did not pursue him, his attention being called elsewhere by the news of the revolt of Thebes. (Arrian, i. 5, 6.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleitus_of_Dardania
Cleitus the Illyrian (Greek: Κλείτος) was the grandson of Bardyllis. The ancient historian Arrian states that the chieftain Cleitus sacrificed three boys, three girls and three rams just before his battle with Alexander the Great.Cleitus and his Dardanians had occupied a Macedonian border fortress , Pelium just before he arrived but despite this and the aid of Glaucias of Taulanti they lost.

 

[Elias2]

Absolutely NO. They talk illyrian.

"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands,"