Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Tomenable]

As for the role of N1c1:

As you know Balts have a lot of N1c1. And Lithuanians according to Haak 2015 have a lot of Yamnaya admixture autosomally.

So maybe some N1c1 (but rather a very small amount) was also present among archaic Proto-Indo-Europeans ???

Norwegians (who have more R1a and R1b than other Scandinavians) and Lithuanians (R1a + N1c1) are very Yamnaya-like.

=========================

And according to Eupedia:

The N1c1 subclade found in Europe likely arose in Southern Siberia 12,000 years ago, and spread to north-eastern Europe 10,000 years ago. It is associated with the Kunda culture (8000-5000 BCE) and the subsequent Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.

So it could be already present in Karelia 7500 - 7000 years ago.

==================================

Yakuts (who are Turkic, not Finnic) have a lot of N1c.

Lithuanians & Latvians (Baltic not Finnic) have a lot of N1c as well.

Non-Finnic Uralics (Ugric, Permic, Volgaic, Saamic, Samoyedic) also have N1c.

Samoyedic Nenets have a lot of N1c, but even more of N1b.

Baltic Finnic peoples have no monopoly for N1c.

Slavic and Germanic groups also have N1c. Most of it probably comes from recent (Medieval) assimilation of other, Non-Slavic and Non-Germanic groups. But some clades could be inherited from Proto-Indo-Europeans.

Maybe Proto-Indo-Europeans got a bit of N1c1 early on from intermarriages with Non-Indo-Europeans.

In Karelia there could be contacts between R1a1 and N1c1 already 7000 - 7500 years ago!

 

[Alan]

I still don't get why you give them such ingh EEF admixture. According to Figuer 2 they so much autosomally closer to Mal'ta boy MM1 and pure ANE than to Neolithic Farmers of Europe. Yamnaya guys are very close and alike the two EHG samples. Some of Yamnaya are very close to ANE source, and some stretched towards EEF, but not far enough. Note that the grey dots from the background are the location of modern population on the chart. Even Corded Ware individuals don't touch the first grey dots, which represent modern Russians and Finns having almost 30% of EEF. From this chart I would guess that Corded Ware were about 20% EEF and Yamnaya at 10%, EEF some of them much less (the sampled region of Yamnaya).


View attachment 7076

I'm still yet to read most of the paper. Could you post numbers for pages you are taking your numbers from, please.

I actually answered the question in my previous posts.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ages-in-Europe?p=449762&viewfull=1#post449762


I was talking about ENF. I think you mistook it with the orange EEF. As I said there is a significant difference between these two. The Near Eastern portion in Yamna would be significantly different from that orange EEF.


The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians.


The reason why the farmer DNA is orange EEF, is because most of the farmer DNA in Europe is still of the early Neolithic EEF type while they only received some of the "Caucasus_Gedrosia" Proto-herder DNA, which is something like ~70% Near Eastern farmer+ ~30% ANE. The Yamna was almost ~50% of this Caucasus_Gedrosia type farmer DNA. But modern Europeans are more of the EEF type which on itself was not yet contaminated by ANE admixture.

The major difference between EEF and Caucasus_Gedrosia seems to be mainly because of the ANE admixture in the latter.


Now this green component is simply predominantly what we would call nowadays Caucasus_ Gedrosia.
But it also contains some significant WHG and additional ANE.

And the way Yamna places in pca plots (Somewhere in between Mordovians and Lezgians).

And the fact that Reich tried to explain Yamna as "Armenian like farmer" + Karelian H&G.
Brings me to the conclusion that Yamna was 30/30/40 WHG/ANE/ENF.

Note ENF not EEF and take in mind ENF is also just a speculative "proto farmer" component because we don't know yet how the proto farmers could have looked like. It could very well be that EEF is ENF and just the additional ANE changed it to Caucasus_Gedrosia.

 

[Sile]

I think you guys are putting to much emphasis on ADMIXTURE. F-statistics are the bread and butter of Haak 2015.

this paper is the next step to remove EEF,WHG and ANE

we will see EN, EHG and another moving through


the isotopic analysis of the skeltons are showing origin of homeland of the bones, ........these new bones show all born in yamnya

what kind of admixture do you mean

 

[Sile]

I actually answered the question in my previous posts.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ages-in-Europe?p=449762&viewfull=1#post449762


I was talking about ENF. I think you mistook it with the orange EEF. As I said there is a significant difference between these two. The Near Eastern portion in Yamna would be significantly different from that orange EEF.


The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians.


The reason why the farmer DNA is orange EEF, is because most of the farmer DNA in Europe is still of the early Neolithic EEF type while they only received little of the "Caucasus_Gedrosia" Proto-herder DNA, which is something like ~70% Near Eastern farmer+ ~30% ANE. The Yamna was almost ~50% of this Caucasus_Gedrosia type farmer DNA. But modern Europeans are more of the EEF type which on itself was not yet contaminated by ANE admixture.

The major difference between EEF and Caucasus_Gedrosia seems to be mainly because of the ANE admixture in the latter.


Now this green component is simply predominantly what we would call nowadays Caucasus_ Gedrosia.
But it also contains some significant WHG and additional ANE.

And the way Yamna places in pca plots (Somewhere in between Mordovians and Lezgians).

And the fact that Reich tried to explain Yamna as "Armenian like farmer" + Karelian H&G.
Brings me to the conclusion that Yamna was 30/30/40 WHG/ANE/ENF.

Note ENF not EEF and take in mind ENF is also just a speculative "proto farmer" Haplogroup because we don't know yet how the proto farmers could have looked like. It could very well be that EEF is ENF and just the additional ANE changed it to Caucasus_Gedrosia.

it also shows ANE went into yamnya later than EN and EHG

 

[Angela]

I actually answered the question in my previous posts.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ages-in-Europe?p=449762&viewfull=1#post449762


I was talking about ENF. I think you mistook it with the orange EEF. As I said there is a significant difference between these two. The Near Eastern portion in Yamna would be significantly different from that orange EEF.


The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians.


The reason why the farmer DNA is orange EEF, is because most of the farmer DNA in Europe is still of the early Neolithic EEF type while they only received little of the "Caucasus_Gedrosia" Proto-herder DNA, which is something like ~70% Near Eastern farmer+ ~30% ANE. The Yamna was almost ~50% of this Caucasus_Gedrosia type farmer DNA. But modern Europeans are more of the EEF type which on itself was not yet contaminated by ANE admixture.

The major difference between EEF and Caucasus_Gedrosia seems to be mainly because of the ANE admixture in the latter.


Now this green component is simply predominantly what we would call nowadays Caucasus_ Gedrosia.
But it also contains some significant WHG and additional ANE.

And the way Yamna places in pca plots (Somewhere in between Mordovians and Lezgians).

And the fact that Reich tried to explain Yamna as "Armenian like farmer" + Karelian H&G.
Brings me to the conclusion that Yamna was 30/30/40 WHG/ANE/ENF.

Note ENF not EEF and take in mind ENF is also just a speculative "proto farmer" Haplogroup because we don't know yet how the proto farmers could have looked like. It could very well be that EEF is ENF and just the additional ANE changed it to Caucasus_Gedrosia.

I've been playing with the numbers and that's how I see it as well...maybe some tweaking, i.e. ENF maybe a few percents more or less, but basically this is how it shakes out.

I think this sort of seals the deal, don't you think?
"The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians."

Perhaps we need to change the avatar for the incredibly sought after "Near Eastern" brides? Or at least add another one? She's an Iranian Jew not Iraqui but close enough. Plus, people might be familiar with her as she's been in a good number of movies.
http://media.sinematurk.com/person/a/df/ffca313cfd4a/Bahar Soomekh (2).jpg

 

[holderlin]

The myceneans are the same level of greek as the minoans:shy_scared:

Are you referring to some genomes I haven't seen? Because by every other measure this can't be true.

 

[Alan]

I've been playing with the numbers and that's how I see it as well...maybe some tweaking, i.e. ENF maybe a few percents more or less, but basically this is how it shakes out.

I think this sort of seals the deal, don't you think?
"The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians."

Perhaps we need to change the avatar for the incredibly sought after "Near Eastern" brides? Or at least add another one? She's an Iranian Jew not Iraqui but close enough. Plus, people might be familiar with her as she's been in a good number of movies.
http://media.sinematurk.com/person/a/df/ffca313cfd4a/Bahar Soomekh (2).jpg

We have yet only few Samara valley samples. Who knows if in the future (Iam 100% convinced) there will pop up other yDNA?

on Another thought, why is it so impossible that R1b was actually brought with these Near Eastern pastoralists? I mean only one H&G from the Samara valley turned out as R1b and even he had some of the "Caucasus_Gedrosia"already. What if this single R1b in the EHG was actually from a pastoralist who impregnated some EHG lady!. At the end of the day all the other R1b were Yamna and the R1b found in Samara is of the West Asian-Balkan type.

So what if R1b was actually the Haplogroup brought with the pastoralists?

I say this because I honestly doubt that an all female migration was able to impose their pastoralist lifestyle on the EHG.

For many reasons: 1. Indo Europeans as many ancient West EUrasian cultures were patriachal
2. how many times in History did it actually happen that there was an all female migration? In fact it was always male+female, never only male and never only female migration. And if these females were kidnapped how did they impose their pastoralist livestlye on the guys who actually kidnapped them?
3. EHG according to Reich and Dieneks was unlikely to have spoken any PIE language. There are two possibilities. Either the pastoralists brought the language with them or PIE is a fusion of both.

So I honestly doubt the bride hypothesis. Especially because of the ~50% Caucasus-Gedrosia genes. If we would go by that theory we would need to assume that the EHG replaced all their females completely by pastoralist brides lol. Otherwiese a 50% "Caucasus_Gedrosia" ancestry is impossible. If only 1/4 of their females were "kidnapped" or exchanged brides the Yamna wouldn't have 50% of this modern "Near Eastern" component.

 

[LeBrok]

I actually answered the question in my previous posts.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ages-in-Europe?p=449762&viewfull=1#post449762


I was talking about ENF. I think you mistook it with the orange EEF. As I said there is a significant difference between these two. The Near Eastern portion in Yamna would be significantly different from that orange EEF.

I was referring to base ENF which came from Near East with first farmers and mixed with some WHG to create EEF. However, I agree that farmer DNA "ENF" from today's Armenia region and Caucasus was different. Similarly to europe's EEF it was probably a mixture with ENF + local hunter gatherer.

There was an old dude who lived in Kostenki Russia 36 kya. It happens that his genome is plotted together with other ancients in Figure 2.
Interestingly he plots almost exactly with population of Caucasus and not far away from Armenians. That's a surprise from 36 thousand year dude! All modern Europeans plot farther away from WHG, ANE, SHG or EEF. But Kostenki is right there with modern Caucasus. It is visually obvious that Yamnaya people are pooled half the way from EHG location of their ancestors towards Caucasus and Kostenki dude. I don't think it was the farmer admixture. I was also looking through the paper about archeological context they were found in. I couldn't find any description of their lifestyle, except a short paragraph that they were horseback herders, and not described as typical farmers.
Kostenki (K14) is very distinct, equally far away from ANE, EHG, WHG and even EEF neolithic farmers.
I really think there is a strong but not well understood and recognize ancient admixture in Caucasus. It is not a signature of ENF or otherwise first farmers from Fertile Crescent. For that reason, and because Lazaridis calculations were not meant for "out of Europe", this Caucasus/Armenian admixture plots as EEF. For Armenians it gives 83% EEF and 17% ANE, but it is misleading for a lack of a better calculator. Looking at Figure 2 I'm bravely stating that Armenians are 40 EEF, 43 Kostenki/Ancient Caucasus, and 17 ANE. In this case The Yamnaya people in their 50 % Caucasus/Near Eastern admixture got mostly Ancient Caucasus and ANE, and a little bit of EEF. It doesn't need to be 50% of exactly of every admixture. They say they got 50%, but not quantifying the admixtures. Perhaps they've gotten more ENF but I don't see it in their lifestyle.

The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians.

The reason why the farmer DNA is orange EEF, is because most of the farmer DNA in Europe is still of the early Neolithic EEF type while they only received little of the "Caucasus_Gedrosia" Proto-herder DNA, which is something like ~70% Near Eastern farmer+ ~30% ANE. The Yamna was almost ~50% of this Caucasus_Gedrosia type farmer DNA. But modern Europeans are more of the EEF type which on itself was not yet contaminated by ANE admixture.

The major difference between EEF and Caucasus_Gedrosia seems to be mainly because of the ANE admixture in the latter.

I think we have a similar view of this situation. The difference is that you think that Caucasus Gedrosia constitutes of EEF and ANE, I'm thinking that it is a completely distinct thing, Ancient Caucasian Admixture from Kostenki people.

Now this green component is simply predominantly what we would call nowadays Caucasus_ Gedrosia.

I guess we should, if it is the same thing. Somehow Gedrosia doesn't show in modern East Euros. Them being descendants of Corded Ware it should have been there.

But it also contains some significant WHG and additional ANE.

Perhaps some, but mostly something unique from Kostenki.

And the fact that Reich tried to explain Yamna as "Armenian like farmer" + Karelian H&G.
Brings me to the conclusion that Yamna was 30/30/40 WHG/ANE/ENF.

For now I would just expand it as 30/30/30 ACA/10 ENF. On other hand, if my eyeballing the PCA chart makes sense, I'd say 15/35/35/15 WHG/ANE/ACA/ENF.

Note ENF not EEF and take in mind ENF is also just a speculative "proto farmer" Haplogroup because we don't know yet how the proto farmers could have looked like. It could very well be that EEF is ENF and just the additional ANE changed it to Caucasus_Gedrosia.

It is about time to test ancients from Caucasus and Near East. And of course in few places.

I'm almost confident to find 100% Ancient Caucasus Admixture (Gedrosia?) in Maykop Culture.

 

[Tomenable]

There was an old dude who lived in Kostenki Russia 36 kya.

His Y-DNA haplogroup was C1.

Then we have C1a2 in Spain (7,7 - 8 kya), C1a2 in Hungary (7 - 7,3 kya) and C (not C3) in Andronovo culture in Russia (2,8 - 2,4 kya).

It seems that the presence of C in Western Eurasia (including Europe) is very, very ancient (from Paleolithic times).

 

[Tomenable]

You mean that R1a people from Finland emigrated to Asia and Europe?

Yes, but from Karelia or somewhere around (not Finland).

7500 - 7000 years ago ancestor of R1a M417 lived in Karelia.

And nowadays his descendants live all over this vast area in Eurasia:

Modern distribution of R1a M417 (green = R1a Z282; blue = R1a Z93):

Now info from Underhill 2014:

Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ~25 000 (95% CI: 21 300–29 000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ~5800 (95% CI: 4800–6800) years.

(...)

A consensus has not yet been reached on the rate at which Y-chromosome SNPs accumulate within this 9.99Mb sequence. Recent estimates include one SNP per: ~100 years,58 122 years,4 151 years5 (deep sequencing reanalysis rate), and 162 years.59 Using a rate of one SNP per 122 years, and based on an average branch length of 206 SNPs from the common ancestor of the 13 sequences, we estimate the bifurcation of R1 into R1a and R1b to have occurred ~25 100 ago (95% CI: 21 300–29 000). Using the 8 R1a lineages, with an average length of 48 SNPs accumulated since the common ancestor, we estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred rather recently, ~5800 years ago (95% CI: 4800–6800). The slowest mutation rate estimate would inflate these time estimates by one third, and the fastest would deflate them by 17%.

(...)

we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence

Nowadays 99% of all R1a (2893 out of 2923 samples) belong to M417 branch, even though it is so young:

We measured R1a haplogroup frequency by population (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 2923 hg R1a-M420 samples, 2893 were derived for the M417/Page7 mutations (1693 non-Roma Europeans and 1200 pan-Asians), whereas the more basal subgroups were rare. We observed just 24 R1a*-M420(xSRY10831.2), 6 R1a1*-SRY10831.2(xM198), and 12 R1a1a1-M417/Page7*(xZ282,Z93). We did not observe a single instance of R1a1a-M198*(xM417,Page7), but we cannot exclude the possibility of its existence. Of the 1693 European R1a-M417/Page7 samples, more than 96% were assigned to R1a-Z282 (Figure 2), whereas 98.4% of the 490 Central and South Asian R1a lineages belonged to hg R1a-Z93 (Figure 3), consistent with the previously proposed trend.31 Both of these haplogroups were found among Near/Middle East and Caucasus populations comprising 560 samples.

Another excerpt from Underhill 2014:

This raises the possibility of a wide and rapid spread of R1a-Z282-related lineages being associated with prevalent Copper and Early Bronze Age societies that ranged from the Rhine River in the west to the Volga River in the east55 including the Bronze Age Proto-Slavic culture that arose in Central Europe near the Vistula River.56 It may have been in this cultural context that hg R1a-Z282 diversified in Central and Eastern Europe. The corresponding diversification in the Middle East and South Asia is more obscure. However, early urbanization within the Indus Valley also occurred at this time57 and the geographic distribution of R1a-M780 (Figure 3d) may reflect this.

 

[Silesian]

Coming back to R1a for a moment:

7500 - 7000 years ago ancestor of R1a M417 lived in Karelia.

And nowadays his descendants live all over this vast area in Eurasia:

Modern distribution of R1a M417 (green = R1a Z282; blue = R1a Z93):

Now info from Underhill 2014:



Nowadays 99% of all R1a (2893 out of 2923 samples) belong to M417 branch, even though it is so young:

Here is some rough estimates from Polish Michael for approximate date range for R1a-R1b I have highlighted Yamnaya 5000+/- R1b -Z2105 sample in red.

Originally Posted by Michał
I think the calculations that have been recently posted by Ebizur are very reasonable and I would definitely agree with most of his estimates. The only exception is that I consider L11 to be rather older than 5.1 ky, but I may be wrong about it. I am on vacation now, so don't have access to any details of my calculations, but here are my relatively recent rough estimates (in ky) taken from the notes I have with me:

R1b-M269 7.5 (7.0-8.1)
R1b-L23 7.2 (6.7-7.7)
R1b-Z2103 6.4 (5.9-6.9)
R1b-L51 6.7 (6.2-7.2)
R1b-L11 5.7 (5.2-6.2)
R1b-P312 5.6 (5.1-6.1)
R1b-U106 5.5 (5.0-6.0)

R1a-M417 6.2 (5.7-6.7)
R1a-CTS4385 5.8 (5.3-6.3)
R1a-L664 4.8 (4.3-5.2)
R1a-Z645 5.6 (5.1-6.1)
R1a-Z93 5.4 (4.9-5.9)
R1a-Z282 5.4 (4.9-5.9)

 

[Silesian]

I've been playing with the numbers and that's how I see it as well...maybe some tweaking, i.e. ENF maybe a few percents more or less, but basically this is how it shakes out.

I think this sort of seals the deal, don't you think?
"The point is Yamna even fits as 52% Iraqi Jew/48% Karelian. And Iraqi Jews are slightly more ENF than Armenians."

Perhaps we need to change the avatar for the incredibly sought after "Near Eastern" brides? Or at least add another one? She's an Iranian Jew not Iraqui but close enough. Plus, people might be familiar with her as she's been in a good number of movies.
http://media.sinematurk.com/person/a/df/ffca313cfd4a/Bahar Soomekh (2).jpg

I do not know for sure, but I think they made a mistake. Karelian you can also find 6000+/- year R1b-Z2103 in15%+/- (Arkhangelsk region and amongst the Komi at 16%the same for Iraqi Jews they also have 15 -20% R1b-Z2103 so they are sampling all R1b-Z2103 and using R1b-Z2103 population regions in their models. Of course the oldest to date now is in the center of these two poles of R1b-Z2103 5-6.4K+/- the Yamnaya R1b1 sample at 7.6 K +/-

 

[Tomenable]

Thanks, great calculations.

So let's compare Michal's estimate with Underhill's for M417:

R1a-M417 6.2 (5.7-6.7) ----- when according to Underhill 5.8 (4.8-6.8)

 

[Sile]

I was referring to base ENF which came from Near East with first farmers and mixed with some WHG to create EEF. However, I agree that farmer DNA "ENF" from today's Armenia region and Caucasus was different. Similarly to europe's EEF it was probably a mixture with ENF + local hunter gatherer.

There was an old dude who lived in Kostenki Russia 36 kya. It happens that his genome is plotted together with other ancients in Figure 2.
Interestingly he plots almost exactly with population of Caucasus and not far away from Armenians. That's a surprise from 36 thousand year dude! All modern Europeans plot farther away from WHG, ANE, SHG or EHG. But Kostenki is right there with modern Caucasus. It is visually obvious that Yamnaya people are pooled half the way from EHG location of their ancestors towards Caucasus and Kostenki dude. I don't think it was the farmer admixture. I was also looking through the paper about archeological context they were found in. I couldn't find any description of their lifestyle, except a short paragraph that they were horseback herders.
Kostenki (K14) is very distinct, equally far away from ANE, EHG, WHG and even EEF neolithic farmers.
I really think there is a strong but not well understood and recognize ancient admixture in Caucasus. It is not a signature of ENF or otherwise first farmers from fertile Crescent. For that reason, and because Lazaridis calculations were not meant for "out of Europe", this Caucasus admixture plots as EEF. For Armenians 83% EEF and 17% ANE. Looking at Figure 2 I'm bravely stating that Armenians are 40 EEF, 43 Kostenki/Ancient Caucasus, and 17 ANE. In this case The Yamnaya people in their 50 % Caucasus/Near Eastern admixture got mostly Ancient Caucasus and ANE, and a little bit of EEF.

I think we have a similar view of this situation. The difference is that you think that Caucasus Gedrosia constitutes of EEF and ANE, I'm thinking that it is a completely distinct thing, Ancient Caucasian Admixture from Kostenki people.



I guess we should, if it is the same thing. Somehow it doesn't show in modern East Euros.
Perhaps some, but mostly something unique from Kostenki.



For now I would just expand it as 30/30/30 ACA/10 ENF. On other hand, if my eyeballing the PCA chart makes sense, I'd say 15/35/35/15 WHG/ANE/ACA/ENF.

It is about time to test ancients from Caucasus and Near East. And of course in few places.

I'm almost confident to find 100% Ancient Caucasus Admixture (Gedrosia?) in Maykop Culture.

hmmm?

what do you think this sentence means from page 3 of the haak paper

the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but from a
population of Near Eastern ancestry.

 

[Sile]

Are you referring to some genomes I haven't seen? Because by every other measure this can't be true.

modern greek numbers match dorian numbers and not minoan or mycenean that good

do you have any mycenean numbers that match Greek?

 

[LeBrok]

hmmm?

what do you think this sentence means from page 3 of the haak paper

the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but from a
population of Near Eastern ancestry.

We don't have Ancient Near Eastern DNA to conclude that. It might be vice versa, the 50% dark green admixture in Yamnaya could have spread from Caucasus to Near East and the rest came with IE to Near East with invasion.
A similar (darker green) component also distinguishes LN/EBA groups from earlier ones at K=16; this
component appears to be highly represented in groups from South Asia, the Near East, and the
Caucasus. The existence of this component may correspond to the evidence for “dilution” of EHG
ancestry in the Yamnaya (SI7), showing them to have evenly split ancestry between the “dark blue”
hunter-gatherer and “dark green” component; the analysis of SI9 also suggests an even split between
an EHG and a Near Eastern component in the ancestry of the Yamnaya. The “dark green” component
seems to have been carried from a Yamnaya-related population to the Corded Ware and other Late
Neolithic and Bronze Age populations of central Europe. A useful topic for future work is to study the
relationship of LN/BA populations to contemporary South Asians, Caucasian and Near Eastern
populations and to see if this affinity (in contrast to earlier Europeans) may be related to the dispersal
of Indo-European languages.

For my logic the dark green came from Caucasus. If it was truly old Near Eastern it would have spread to Europe with EEF, but it didn't. It was stuck in Caucasus till copper/bronze age.

 

[LeBrok]

Thanks

but the orange arrived in central europe before the EHG according to page 25 of the paper, did the blue and green populace mix in Yamnaya and then follow orange a thousand plus years later?

Actually orange/farmer guys inserted themselves into population of blue and green hunter gatherer in Yamnaya first. Only after mixing with farmers/orange in Yamnaya the population of Yamnaya stopped being HG, grew in numbers as new farmers (West Yamnaya), and expanded into central europe as farming community of Corded Ware. East Yamnaya stayed as HG/horseback herders/ and a bit of farmers and expanded into East Steppe as Andronovo Indo-Iranians.

 

[holderlin]

modern greek numbers match dorian numbers and not minoan or mycenean that good

do you have any mycenean numbers that match Greek?

Modern Greek doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm thinking of pre-Greek greece (non-Greek speaking) vs. Greek Greece (Greek speaking). Two completely different cultures when they meet. The change is obvious in the archaeological and what little historical record they have. Although it sounds like the two peoples may have homogenized very quickly, which is consistent with the data you cite. But the arrival of the Mycenaean signals a very distinct indoeuropean newcomer. I believe much of the Pantheon is maintained through the flourish of the Dorians, which is hard to reconcile given the seeming obliteration of Mycenaean hegemony, which is further compounded by the fog of the BAC.

 

[bicicleur 2]

For my logic the dark green came from Caucasus. If it was truly old Near Eastern it would have spread to Europe with EEF, but it didn't. It was stuck in Caucasus till copper/bronze age.

EEF - G2a2 came from coastal southwest Anatolia

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30863-the-origin-of-the-early-european-farmer

there were many different ethnicities in other areas of SW Asia

 

[motzart]

Did you predict that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians ? It makes sense since the Mordovians have one of the highest incidence of red hair and I always sustained that genes of red hair were brought by R1b people (and blond hair by R1a people).

Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. That's the supposed geographic route followed by R1b Yamna tribes from Ukraine to central Europe.

All wrong. The Unetice samples were all (3/3) I2 y dna and had less Yamnaya admixture than the Bell Beakers who were all (3/3) R1b y dna. All of the Yamnaya samples tested so far have had dark hair and dark eyes. The oldest evidence of blonde hair comes from a 5000 BC individual in hungary with an EEF autosomal makeup and I2 y dna.

looks like you were right the yamnaya but wrong about beakers, unetice, and pigmentation (1/4)