Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

- Z93 originating in the Russian forest-steppe between Belarus and the Urals. It had an eastward expansion with Abashevo and Sintashta.
Forget about R1a-Z93. I'm almost certain that Z93 is native to the Iranian Plateau and just evolved there. And from there migrated into Central Asia and India. R1a-S224 could enter the Steppes from the Caucasus region together with R1b. It's possible that pre-Balto-Slavic people were just I2 and N1c1 fellas...
 
Dienekes has decided to opine:
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-story-of-69-ancient-europeans.html

Some quotes:
"The EHG (Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers) are likely Proto-Europeoid foragers and the Yamnaya (a Bronze Age Kurgan culture) were a mixture of the EHG and something akin to Armenians.The "attraction" of later groups to the Near East is clear in the PCA: hunter-gatherers on the left side, the Near East (as grey dots) on the right side, and Neolithic/Bronze Age/modern Europeans in the middle. The second migration may very well be related to the Uruk expansion and the presence of gracile Mediterranoids and robust Proto-Europeoids in the Yamna:"

"The estimate of Yamnaya related ancestry in the Corded Ware is consistent when using either present populations or ancient Europeans as outgroups (SI9, SI10), and is 73.1 ± 2.2% when both sets are combined (SI10). [...] The magnitude of the population turnover that occurred becomes even more evident if one considers the fact that the steppe migrants may well have mixed with eastern European agriculturalists on their way to central Europe. Thus, we cannot exclude a scenario in which the Corded Ware arriving in today’s Germany had no ancestry at all from local populations."


He also takes the opportunity to show what he obviously feels was the prescience of some of Coon's observations by quoting the following from Coon:

"We shall see, in our survey of prehistoric European racial movements, 8 that the Danubian agriculturalists of the Early Neolithic brought a food-producing economy into central Europe from the East. They perpetuated in the new European setting a physical type which was later supplanted in their original home. Several centuries later the Corded people, in the same way, came from southern Russia but there we first find them intermingled with other peoples, and the cul-tural factors which we think of as distinctively Corded are included in a larger cultural equipment. [...] On the basis of the physical evidence as well, it is likely that the Corded people came from somewhere north or east of the Black Sea. The fully Neolithic crania from southern Russia which we have just studied include such a type, also seen in the midst of Sergi's Kurgan aggregation. Until better evidence is produced from elsewhere, we are entitled to consider southern Russia the most likely way station from which the Corded people moved westward.

He also quotes Coon as to language development:
"Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages. 5 The plants and animals on which the Somewhere in the plains of southern Russia or central Asia, the blending of languages took place which resulted in Indo-European speech. This product in turn spread and split, and was further differentiated by mixture with the languages of peoples upon whom it, in one form or other, was imposed. Some of the present Indo-European languages, in addition to these later accretions from non-Indo-European tongues, contain more of the A element than others, which contain more of the B. The unity of the original " Indo- Europeans," could not have been of long duration, if it was ever complete.

I think this is very important. Yamnaya was a big place. Who knows what lineages will show up around its entire expanse.

On Urheimat (or not) :)
If PIE=EHG (as Anthony and Ringe suggest), then "from the crib", PIE got half its ancestry from a non-IE, Near Eastern source. Conversely, if PIE=Near East (as I suggested) then "from the crib", PIE got half of its ancestry from a non-IE, Eastern European source. The "Yamnaya" seems to max out in Norwegians at around half, which means that they are about a quarter Proto-Indo-European genetically, regardless of which theory is right.

Dienekes goes on further to say:
"These two possibilities (as well as the third one of PIE being neither-nor, but rather a linguistic mixture of the languages of the EHG and Near East) are testable. The Anthony/Ringe version of the steppe hypothesis predicts pre-Yamnaya expansions from the steppe. Whether these happened and what was their makeup can be tested: if they did occur and they did lack "Near Eastern" ancestry, then the steppe hypothesis will be proven. PIE in the Near East, on the other hand, predicts that some PIE languages (certainly the Anatolian ones) will be a "within the Near East" expansion. If such migrations did occur and they lacked "EHG" ancestry, then some variant of the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov model will be proven. Or, the truth might be that everywhere where Indo-Europeans arrive they carry a blend of "West Asian" and "EHG", supporting the third possibility. Time will tell."

He also cautions against too much certainty at this point:
In the interim, I am curious about how much Yamnaya ancestry existed in different parts of Europe (all of the post-5kya samples in this study come from Germany, with a couple from Hungary). In northern Europe, all populations seem to have less Yamnaya ancestry than the Corded Ware: there it must have declined. But, modern Hungarians have more than Bronze Age Hungarians: there it must have increased.
Germany and a slice of Hungary is a very narrow window through which to see the whole of Europe and these results must be tested by looking at samples from beyond the "heartland". I do hope that some kind of Moore's law operates in the world of ancient DNA, and in three more years we'll be reading studies about thousands of ancient individuals.
 
Another interesting discovery in this study, is R1a Z280 from the site of the Lusatian Culture at Halberstadt:

Thesis of Reich was released. Found R1a's :

R1a1-M459 from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, Mesolithic. 5500 - 5000 BCE
R1a1a1-M417xZ282 from Corded Ware site at Esperstedt 2473 - 2348 cal BCE
R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 from Late Bronze Age Germany, Halberstadt, Lusatian Culture. 1113 -1021 cal BCE

No R1a from Yamna, Unetice, Bell Beakers

So now - with previous samples from Eulau and Liechtenstein cave - we have in total 4 places (and 7 males) in Germany with ancient R1a:

- Eulau (x 3 males) ----------------------------------- Corded Ware Culture
- Esperstedt (x 1 male) ------------------------------ Corded Ware Culture
- Halberstadt (x 1 male) ----------------------------- Lusatian Culture
- Liechtenstein cave near Dorste (x 2 males) ------ Urnfield Culture

Right ??? Interestingly, all of these sites are located very close to each other:

R1a_places.png


And we also have this new hunter-gatherer R1a from Karelia.

I added these new places (Halberstadt, Esperstedt, Karelia) to the map of ancient R1a samples that I had made previously:

Red points = places where ancient R1a has been discovered so far:

Ancient_R1a.png


Map shows aDNA samples + modern frequency of R1a according to Underhill 2014.

But we still have a huge "black hole" in the middle (between Germany and Russia, as well as in much of Russia).

All ancient European R1a samples are from peripheries of modern distribution of R1a.

It is high time to finally start digging for ancient Y-DNA in areas between Germany and Russia !!!
 
From the new paper, about this individual in Els Trocs, north-eastern Spain (pretty close to the Basques):

(...) I0410 (Spain_EN):

We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1
(...) The occurrence of a basal form of haplogroup R1b1 in both western Europe and R1b1a in eastern Europe (I0124 hunter-gatherer from Samara) complicates the interpretation of the origin of this lineage. (...)

================================

Check this - Indo-European Tocharians from Xiaohe were R1a, and also European R1a (not Z93):

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

The paper is from 2010, but in the comments section there is a 2014 comment by one of its authors:

Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.

This is according to new (not yet officially published) data by Hui Zhou from Jilin University.

=========================

Check also (about Tocharians):

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/tokol-0-X.html

http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm
 
Also if Yamna/Corded did not bring EEF to Baltics, then who did? We apparently have non-Yamna EEF according those admixture tables, since Baltic folk (Lit, Est) is modelled as EEF+WHG+Yamna.

It has been argued that y line I1 brought farming to North Europe as well as blondism. Such combination would never have occurred to me only a year ago. However, I took note that there is still no I1 in ancient finds in Germany and Scandinavia but only in Neolithic Hungary where they had EEF.
 
It has been argued that y line I1 brought farming to North Europe as well as blondism. Such combination would never have occurred to me only a year ago. However, I took note that there is still no I1 in ancient finds in Germany and Scandinavia but only in Neolithic Hungary where they had EEF.

Maybe I1 was taken by Germanics after they moved from Yamna region towards NW Europe.
What ancient finds are you talking about,Germanics came in Northern Europe after Neolitic period,Yamna culture is estimated to have been between 3600 BC and 2300 BC.

Neolithic ended in Sweden at around 2000 BC.
Till these new findings it was supposed that the Battle-Axe invaded those Neolithic farmers from Scandinavia and brought with them IE languages.
However,according to these new Yamna facts,that Norwegians are most closed to Yamna,Yamna Germanic people moved towards NW Europe and got till Scandinavia.
 
The thing that strikes me about this study is that the authors seem to be arguing for massive replacement of the Neolithic population on the basis of very few actual samples. There are results from four Copper Age sites, two of which produced "Neolithic" results, and results from only a few Bronze Age sites, one of which produced a "Mesolithic" result. I know they're also relying on admixture tests that are producing results that in some cases I think are rather strange, but I think more data is needed before a definite conclusion can be reached. If Corded Ware was a complete replacement, why do half of the CW results look "Neolithic"?

Certainly the discover of multiple R1b results in Yamnaya is very interesting and not what I expected but I think the Spanish results are more interesting. Many people had decided, on the basis of results from a single Neolithic site, that R1b wasn't in Spain during the Neolithic but now we have results from a second site and guess what - R1b appears. I think it's difficult to say how significant that is but I find the result interesting.
 
Certainly the discover of multiple R1b results in Yamnaya is very interesting and not what I expected but I think the Spanish results are more interesting. Many people had decided, on the basis of results from a single Neolithic site, that R1b wasn't in Spain during the Neolithic but now we have results from a second site and guess what - R1b appears. I think it's difficult to say how significant that is but I find the result interesting.

I'm the other way around: I find the Yamnaya samples more interesting, simply because they're closer to the branch that modern European R1b is on. That informs us more than the presence of a basal subclade in the Neolithic. The Spanish result is an interesting result, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't disprove people's hypotheses. Not many people predicted that R1b of any kind wasn't in Spain in the early Neolithic, rather many predicted that modern-European-type R1b wasn't in Spain in the early Neolithic, and that seems to be playing out so far. This study gives us R1b1 M478-, I2a1b1 (a.k.a I2a-Isles), and an "F*" that could actually be a lot of different things.
 
I'm the other way around: I find the Yamnaya samples more interesting, simply because they're closer to the branch that modern European R1b is on. That informs us more than the presence of a basal subclade in the Neolithic. The Spanish result is an interesting result, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't disprove people's hypotheses. Not many people predicted that R1b of any kind wasn't in Spain in the early Neolithic, rather many predicted that modern-European-type R1b wasn't in Spain in the early Neolithic, and that seems to be playing out so far. This study gives us R1b1 M478-, I2a1b1 (a.k.a I2a-Isles), and an "F*" that could actually be a lot of different things.

I don't think the results from one site prove or disprove anything, and I hadn't actually been expecting R1b to turn up in Spain until the BB era. However, at this point we have results from one Mesolithic site and two Neolithic sites, one of which has an early form of R1b - I think that's grounds for not making a decision until we have more results to go on.

The same could be said for the Yamnaya results. I wasn't expecting that. And the fact that none of the "Western European" subclades turned up may simply mean that we need more results from more westerly Yamnaya sites. Or that the "Western European" subclades are VERY recent - I haven't seen any time estimates for them.
 
The fact that one Copper Age individual (Ötzi) was G2a2 like Neolithic Europeans doesn't prove anything. It only shows that at least some Neolithic lineages survived until the Copper Age, but why wouldn't it ? It doesn't mean that other people didn't bring copper-working technology from the Near East. We'll know once we have more Chalcolithic samples from the Balkans (and Anatolia).

Anyway, Yetos was saying that J2a came from Anatolia to the Balkans during the Copper Age. I only said that it's possible but so far no data supports this hypothesis.

there are many places where no anciant DNA has been tested yet, that is true
as far as I know, uptill now, the only J2a was the Hungarian BR2 : http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/fig_tab/ncomms6257_T1.html
acording to Genetiker J2a-M67 , this clade has 2 centers of highest diversity : the Levant and the Caucasus
Kyjatice Culture : they were horseriding nomads , +/- 1200 BC
They probably came from the Caucasus

there is also J2a-M319 which could be the Minoans
then there is
J2a1-L24 and subclades, of which I know nothing

 
I've found a reconstruction by Gerasimov of that Mesolithic R1a male from Karelia:

11_04.jpg


11_03.jpg


11_02.jpg


And also here is the distance between those early Karelia R1a and Samara R1b:

http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html

R1b_R1a.png
 
I'm the other way around: I find the Yamnaya samples more interesting, simply because they're closer to the branch that modern European R1b is on. That informs us more than the presence of a basal subclade in the Neolithic. The Spanish result is an interesting result, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't disprove people's hypotheses. Not many people predicted that R1b of any kind wasn't in Spain in the early Neolithic, rather many predicted that modern-European-type R1b wasn't in Spain in the early Neolithic, and that seems to be playing out so far. This study gives us R1b1 M478-, I2a1b1 (a.k.a I2a-Isles), and an "F*" that could actually be a lot of different things.

R1b1 is a surprise indeed, but he is M269- so he left very few descendants in Europe, and he is very unlikely the source for Iberian Bell Beaker or anything else
the biggest surprise to me was to find 2 x H2 , alltough 1 of them is ambiguous
H is is an Indian clade, many Gipsies in Europe are H, but they are not H2
allways keep in mind : whatever anciant DNA 3000 years and older, there is 90 % chance, it is extinct today
 
I've found a reconstruction by Gerasimov of that Mesolithic R1a male from Karelia:

11_04.jpg


11_03.jpg


11_02.jpg


/QUOTE]

this man is dated 5000 - 5500 BC
4200 BC Pit-comb ware arrives
I wonder wether they were still the same people
Pit-comb is considered to be Uralic - haplogroup N1c
 
Another interesting discovery in this study, is R1a Z280 from the site of the Lusatian Culture at Halberstadt:



So now - with previous samples from Eulau and Liechtenstein cave - we have in total 4 places (and 7 males) in Germany with ancient R1a:

- Eulau (x 3 males) ----------------------------------- Corded Ware Culture
- Esperstedt (x 1 male) ------------------------------ Corded Ware Culture
- Halberstadt (x 1 male) ----------------------------- Lusatian Culture
- Liechtenstein cave near Dorste (x 2 males) ------ Urnfield Culture

Right ??? Interestingly, all of these sites are located very close to each other:

R1a_places.png

Your point is taken , but the fasinating thing is that, using your map above
4 x G2a2a found at Halberstadt and
1 x T1a at Jena ( south of Eulau )

clearly the focus should be ...........why this congregation of people in this area
 
Your point is taken , but the fasinating thing is that, using your map above
4 x G2a2a found at Halberstadt and
1 x T1a at Jena ( south of Eulau )

clearly the focus should be ...........why this congregation of people in this area

it is a löss ground, which was interesting for early farmers
many sites were found by accident, during road works
maybe the soil is also favourable to preserve skeletons ?
i guess the researchers have certain criteria, they investigate the skeletons which have the best chance for high DNA coverage
 
R1b1 is a surprise indeed, but he is M269- so he left very few descendants in Europe, and he is very unlikely the source for Iberian Bell Beaker or anything else
the biggest surprise to me was to find 2 x H2 , alltough 1 of them is ambiguous
H is is an Indian clade, many Gipsies in Europe are H, but they are not H2
allways keep in mind : whatever anciant DNA 3000 years and older, there is 90 % chance, it is extinct today

H2-P96 (formerly called F3 before its relationship with H was established) is uncommon nowadays, and mostly European and West Asian. It does seem to be popping up here and there in ancient DNA, so I'm not too surprised to see it.
 
R1b1 is a surprise indeed, but he is M269- so he left very few descendants in Europe, and he is very unlikely the source for Iberian Bell Beaker or anything else
the biggest surprise to me was to find 2 x H2 , alltough 1 of them is ambiguous
H is is an Indian clade, many Gipsies in Europe are H, but they are not H2
allways keep in mind : whatever anciant DNA 3000 years and older, there is 90 % chance, it is extinct today

H is a close cousin of G, Wasn't there a Thracian individual who was also H?
H is also found in Central Asia. There was even a neolithic Syrian sample with H.

Seems like one of those Haplogroups which were once more widespred than nowadays (similar case with C).
 
H is a close cousin of G, Wasn't there a Thracian individual who was also H?
H is also found in Central Asia. There was even a neolithic Syrian sample with H.

Seems like one of those Haplogroups which were once more widespred than nowadays (similar case with C).

yes there was and note that ALL the old ydna F3 are renamed as H1b............which this thracian was
 
By the way:

R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 from Late Bronze Age East Germany, Halberstadt, Lusatian Culture. 1113 -1021 BCE

So we have Balto-Slavic Y-DNA in Lusatian Culture:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

Moreover, it was found in the westernmost peripheries:

Lusatian_Culture.png
 

This thread has been viewed 370223 times.

Back
Top