Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Yaan]

yes there was and note that ALL the old ydna F3 are renamed as H1b............which this thracian was

Dude there is no Thracian male lines tested, for the last time it is MT DNA

 

[Alan]

I wouldn't read too much into the Late Bronze Age J2a1 sample from Hungary (c. 1200 BCE). The Indo-Europeans had been in the region for nearly 2000 years by then, and it could very well have been a foreigner or an assimilated person from a non-IE culture. After all three Unetice samples tested in this new study turned out to be assimilated local I2 lineages, not steppe lineages.

That could be but which non neolithic farmer population could have come before the Indo Europeans and brought this Haplogroup? There is always a likelyhood for other scenarios but from the data we have so far, an Indo European origin looks like the most likely one.


.

No one knows precisely what cataclysmic events took place around 1200 BCE, but I would bet that this corresponds to an expansion of J2a people in the Eastern Mediterranean, and that the Sea Peoples were probably predominantly J2a people. After all, all the great ancient seafaring civilizations all presumably had high percentages of J2a, including the Phoenicians who just happen to emerge around 1200 BCE.

Yes but as you said yourself, Sea People emerged later. And I don't know of any other possible migration to Hungary which could have brought J2a there.

One hypothesis of mine is that the Sea Peoples were descended from the Minoan civilization, which had just collapsed c. 1450 BCE. The fall of the Minoan state might have led to Minoan people turning to piracy and raiding the coasts of the East Mediterranean, from Sardinia to the Levant. The Trojans, whose city had been destroyed by the Mycenaeans c. 1200 BCE, may well have been a mixture of R1b-L23 and J2a people, and Trojans who escaped may also have been among the Sea Peoples who sought revenge on Mycenaean Greece and caused its downfall less than 100 years later.

I don't see why Minoans would end up in Hungary especially not just 100 years after their collapse and be able to mix so much with the local population in Hungary, that their genetic make up turns totally French like. Also are we speculating that Sea People gave this J2a individual his ANE- That doesn't seem very likely to me, especially not if all the other late Neolithic, Bronze Age samples from the same region are a mix of WHG and ENF, but have no ANE yet. From who should the J2a individual have gained it's ANE?

In such a context, it would be unreasonable to label a Hungarian J2a1 as necessarily Indo-European.

Not necessary yes, but allot more speaks for an Indo European, than any other theoretical origin.

The point here is, we having two Bronze Age samples from Hungary and only the J2a sample showing ANE admixture and the arrival of ANE admixture in Hungary beeing connected with the arrival of J2a.

Note I am not claiming that J2a came exclusively with Indo Europeans. There are multiple origins of J2a for sure.
But we will see in future with more samples.

 

[Tomenable]

And soon we will probably have Y-DNA from Bronze Age Poland! Dr Monika Abreu-Głowacka is extracting DNA from this guy:

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktu...z-z-wojownikiem-sprzed-kilku-tysiecy-lat.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search...-max=2016-01-01T00:00:00+02:00&max-results=21

They found a Bronze Age warrior in Rogalin near Hrubieszow. Here is facial reconstruction:

 

[Tomenable]

OK, I found more info about this project. DNA results will be published in April.

Here is a thread about this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ded-Ware-Strzyżów-Culture-PRELIMINARY-results

 

[Yetos]

does anybody knows the results of william Parkinson search in Diros cave?

some DNA tests I heard started at 2012, but still I haven't found any summarry.

 

[epoch]

OK, I found more info about this project. DNA results will be published in April.

Here is a thread about this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ded-Ware-Strzyżów-Culture-PRELIMINARY-results

Nice. We'll be able to see how it fits then. U5b1, Y-DNA not known yet.

 

[epoch]

Your point is taken , but the fasinating thing is that, using your map above
4 x G2a2a found at Halberstadt and
1 x T1a at Jena ( south of Eulau )

clearly the focus should be ...........why this congregation of people in this area

I vaguely recall that area (Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt) was explicitly sampled because it's at the cross roads of many big trans-European cultures. I recall user FrankN saying something of the likes.

 

[MOESAN]

I think part of the R1b story is related to copper miners / smiths so they may have had a much larger range as minority artisans along trade routes than they had as full populations.

In which case if there was any dramatic demographic impact along the Atlantic coast it may have been due to that region's relative under population at the time.

(Just one of my theories but personally I wonder if part of what we think of as "near eastern" actually comes from central Asia i.e. I wonder if there was a metal age demographic transition there as well.)

I have some doubt about tight links between overall numerous populations and some working corporations, whatever the prestige attached to these last ones (it recall me the amber theories or others) - it's right that metallurgists at these times were very important and if I had to attach some special people to these kind of professional rovering I would think in BBs, sure - but are we sure FIRST BBs were Y-R1b? very possible but not sure, and hard to explain the today R1b domination in whole West -
that said I thought it was possible R1B took at least two roads into Europe westwards: one South, without too much descendants (South Italy H35) and Valencia, and ONE or TWO other roads: principal: Danube/Donau - second: South Baltic (look at the variance in South Sweden and old SNPs and the clear separation (at first) between P312 and U106... but who knows?

 

[arvistro]

Did some brutal mathematics using the admixture table of modern pop vs Yamnaya in this thread and admixture (WHG, EEF, ANE) from http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...NE-admixtures-in-Europe-Please-post-your-data

Gives that Yamnaya ~ 33% EEF + 33% WHG + 33% ANE

Math is academically wrong, I simply substracted non-Yamna parts from this thread and checked what is left as Yamna

Like this - Lithuania
036 EEF 046 WHG 017 ANE - LIT (earlier topic)
or
20 EEF 30 WHG 50 Yamnaya - LIT (this topic)
Now I substract
36-20 = 16 EEF (left unexplained by EEF being only 20 in this topic)
46-30 = 16 WHG (-//-)
17-0 = 17 ANE (-//-)
So 16 : 16 : 17 or 1:1:1 relationship

Works charming for Lithuania and Czech Republic,

but for Estonia and Norway gives different results... Estonian Yamna would eat 22 EEF+ 9 WHG + 18 ANE (estimating EEF twice as much as WHG in Yamna), Norwegian Yamna would eat 6 EEF + 24 WHG + 16 ANE (estimating WHG four times as much as EEF in Yamna).

So apparently simple calculus does not work, but I still think 1:1:1 proportion might not be far from truth.

 

[epoch]

Wow. How does anyone fit Y-DNA of QLB15D (Quedlinburg, Baalberge Culture, 3645-3537 BC) in this story?

QLB15D: R*(xR1a1a, R1b1a2a1a)-P224 Quedlinburg, Germany: 3645-3537: Baalberge, MN, :: P1 P230+, R P224+: R1a1a M515-, R1b1a2a1a L151-:

EDIT: Marija Gimbutas considered Baalberge culture a IE culture. This R* may point to that as well. But that would make the "massive migration from the steppe" story even more complicated.

 

[MOESAN]

Well Maciamo and how can you explain the distribution of R1B if it came from West Asia through Pontic Steppe,in Europe,compared with how R1B is in current day Europe?
Romans,Germanics,Celts,all bearers of mainly R1B branches were all great warriors,why is no more R1B in Eastern Europe?
If you look at the distribution of R1B,taking Germanic speaking countries it rather seems that they have came from Northern Europe and spread towards South East Europe,for example in Austria there still is a high percentage of R1B and in the same time the South Eastern border of Germanic speakers .
I am not saying that R1B people did not came through Pontic Steppes into Europe,I am just finding hard to believe this,considering the current distribution of R1b in Europe.

every culture can have its daybreak and its crepuscule - and at these times (and even later) tribes took through some corridors and did not eliminate or conquire whole territories: very often we see the rivers or the shores used as highways or settlements, and some mountains passes giving way to other rivers and staying near good metallic ores ressources - It seems to me the continental Y-R1b were not so numerous at first and that they took strength between Hungary and Switzerland and around: here it seems their demography brutally encreased - for Y-R1B U106 I'm not sure but we see the Danube corridor leading to Moravia South Poland, and to Bohemia where by mountains passes we get to the Saale and Weser, in a region rich for metals - the Corded I believe they were more Y-R1a took the South Baltic plain, rather - the point of meeting with Y-R1b and northern BBs (R1b or not) about the 2500 I think was this Eastern germany Thuringen-Sax-Anhalt "metallic" region, were was found later the frontier between Celts and Germanics before Germanics took the strong side (confirmation of the beginning of my post): I believe future Germanics took even some lessons from Celts at these times.
I know placing Celts there so early is debated; nevertheless the future gaelic speakers (british BBs?) could very well be gone away from Westfalen-South-
Lower-Saxony -
that to say Y-R1b maybe did not hold the whole eastern Europe from Baltic to Black Sea, and that even a strong society can be swept off by an other strong one (Rome badly finished) -

 

[MOESAN]

Give me a break, please:

• Why R1b couldn't have been spread around Western Europe by the Bell Beaker people
• Bell Beakers were a multicultural phenomenon & trade network, not an ethnic culture

YOu have far more tools in your hands than I've and you made a good job until now -
At first I was against a R1b assignation for BBs but if we consider some early forms of Y-R1b took the South maritime road (the R1b in North-Africa is an element to think about?) so these southern maritime R1b could have been cousins of more numerous brethren of Central Europe, vanguard prospectors (old theory, but old theories can revive)
who made a few time later the junction with the "brothers" in Rhine/Rhône knot before colonising lower Rhine???
only a precaution suggestion I don't hold too much on -

 

[bicicleur 2]

Wow. How does anyone fit Y-DNA of QLB15D (Quedlinburg, Baalberge Culture, 3645-3537 BC) in this story?




EDIT: Marija Gimbutas considered Baalberge culture a IE culture. This R* may point to that as well. But that would make the "massive migration from the steppe" story even more complicated.

tell me, why did Gimbutas consider Baalberge IE ?

 

[epoch]

tell me, why did Gimbutas consider Baalberge IE ?

You need to google that yourself I just saw it on Wiki. The only thing that struck me is the R* in the middle Neolithic in Germany.

 

[MOESAN]

copper age Hungarian was very related to early Neolithic Hungarian

View attachment 7072

and ötzi 3300 BC was G2a2b-L91

furthermore Catal Hoyuk knew metallurgy and they were related to early Hungarian Neolithic, but not to Levantine/southeast Anatolian PPNB :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30863-the-origin-of-the-early-european-farmer

so copper melting in the Balkans might be brought by G2a2 as well

no offense but we cannot rely upon a lonesome man - I believe at these brutal times when metals confere military superiority to their owners the dominant ethny passed a maximum of its Y-DNA to descendants: in Balkans, Y-G is not too dominant nor even non-neglictible, as almost nowhere in Europe except some points in Italy or Austria (maybe in Portugal too) often in mountainous region - I don't speak here of Caucasus - Y-J2 and even Y-E1b have a very heavier role in Balkans as a whole - in Balkans the competitors agairnst Y-J2 are Y-R1a, Y-E1bV13 and Y-R1b, except in montainous western Dinaric Alps -
tremendous thread all the way!!!

 

[epoch]

does anybody knows the results of william Parkinson search in Diros cave?

some DNA tests I heard started at 2012, but still I haven't found any summarry.

Can you elaborate on that?

 

[Greying Wanderer]

I think R1b = copper and copper working could have started anywhere there were copper deposits and so the assumption that copper working spread from the near east might be wrong.

 

[MOESAN]

What if L23 split east of Anatolia with 1 branch mostly going north to the steppes, some in Anatolia, and another going through Anatolia to the Balkans, and this latter one eventually turning into L21. That would explain "Anatolian" R1b-Z-whatever being the dominant Y-Dna of Yamna people, and Yamna people having new "Near Eastern" or "Armenian like", not found in hunter gatherers. ANE in Europe was most likely due to spread of R1a people. The percentages across Europe don't matter much, as y-dna is useless when it comes to analysing modern ethnic make up, due to founder effect.One thing is clear though. No matter how R1b spread into Europe, the massive founder effect could only be due to farming, not IE stealing women, or other fairy tales. I1's concentration in the north for example is all down to farming, probably picked up from Hungary, not simply 100% remnants of hunter gatherers.

the chances for strong founder effects diminish with number - concerning "stealing women" I think it existed in a soft form (elite prestige and priority, and polygamy perhaps) but I agree it cannot explain everything, it can have noticeable effects after generations of successive conquests - for Yamnaya, I have not a firm opinion today because Yamanya horizon is large and the Samara sample can abuse us very well - I'm tempted to think that closer Yamanya stellements had more Y-R1a, as you, without any proof it's true - but we know Yamnaya was not homogenous: the more southern parts had surely more descendants from S-Caucasus or from Balkans - the 'armenian theory' concerning kurgans ans steppes (anthropology) admit the 'armenan' traits were not so strong in far settlements - other surveys opposed different regions of the steppes, more or less 'cro-magnoid' (unprecise term) more or less 'southern' or 'armenian' (as unprecise) ...
concerning Y-I adn Y-I1 peculiarly I thin its bearers were dissiminated averyplace in central-northern Europe at first between the agricultors net, and mixed partially with them later -

 

[MOESAN]

It has been argued that y line I1 brought farming to North Europe as well as blondism. Such combination would never have occurred to me only a year ago. However, I took note that there is still no I1 in ancient finds in Germany and Scandinavia but only in Neolithic Hungary where they had EEF.

me (and others) are arguing about what is found: easier to find numerous remnants from farmers communauties than from HGs poor open sites - easier to find remnants of a warlike elite than of low class population, before christianity - easier to find remnants in some grounds than in granitic acide grounds and so on ...
don't forget it's found some Y-I1 and Y-I2a2 in Northern Russia too - it's not the first time than archeologists notice a so called "return" of older populations thought to have been eliminated; sometimes it's only the result of less "visibility" (I think here in the HGs)... we need more and more ancient DNA FROM DIFFERENT SITES - what shall we say if a survey would publish states about a today 5 or even 20 persons of a same region???

 

[MOESAN]

And soon we will probably have Y-DNA from Bronze Age Poland! Dr Monika Abreu-Głowacka is extracting DNA from this guy:

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktu...z-z-wojownikiem-sprzed-kilku-tysiecy-lat.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search...-max=2016-01-01T00:00:00+02:00&max-results=21

They found a Bronze Age warrior in Rogalin near Hrubieszow. Here is facial reconstruction:

trahison!! LOL -
in the reconstitution I saw first, the above profile, i was abused by the "dress" of the skull: I would be glad to see the nude skull from profiel (lateral view) -
from face, it seems far less ' eurafrican' than I found - I think the nose root is to flat and to high, just under glabella, compared to skull (but I need the profiel, again) -
as this, from face, the skull evocate some 'cro-magnoid' gracilized heritage, on the way to a kind of 'eurafrican' (the true nose root here can be of worth) , something finally not to far from the 'long barrows' of Coon (I supposed to be a mix of 'eurafrican' from around Mesopotamia and 'cromagnoids' descendants of Atlantic) -
but I don't affirm a long-barrow filiation here, because same crossings from same parent races give the same results...
for now, my post is still "litterature", not science...