Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
So those HGs. were already present during the Neolitich age. This means that Balkan people have very little Indo European blood (R1b+R1a) and the Bosniaks are mostly Mesolitich I2 natives. Nothing to do with Slavs and other savages from the North.
So those HGs. were already present during the Neolitich age. This means that Balkan people have very little Indo European blood (R1b+R1a) and the Bosniaks are mostly Mesolitich I2 natives. Nothing to do with Slavs and other savages from the North.
So those HGs. were already present during the Neolitich age. This means that Balkan people have very little Indo European blood (R1b+R1a) and the Bosniaks are mostly Mesolitich I2 natives. Nothing to do with Slavs and other savages from the North.
You might be surprised. People on other websites are still trashing Gimbutas' view of Old Europe as a more equal place for women. In fact, they seem to think that these people were just a bunch of stone age, cannibalistic farmers. I guess they never heard of their large towns, their metallurgy and beautiful ceramics, and never saw Anthony's wonderful museum exposition about it, or read Anthony's accompanying book on the subject. Apparently, the discovery of a few percent more WHG in Vinca over what Stuttgart and Starcevo had is not enough for them to suddenly think highly of it. At least they're consistent.
For the record, perhaps we have a language issue here, but no one ever said that some WHG I2, I1 men and some mtDna "U" women weren't absorbed by the farmers. That's been obvious since the first results showed up. What was said was that it was difficult and took place very slowly over a long period of time, 1500 years and more in some places.
The sudden spike in WHG around the time of the Bronze Age expansions from the steppe is another matter. Maybe in terms of places like the Balkans or even central Europe some had been hiding up in some mountain valleys and came down, as both I and Maciamo have speculated, once the Neolithic communities started crashing and the Indo-Europeans arrived.
As I said right after Haak came out, however, I think there might have been a steady flow of perhaps SHG like people into Central Europe from the Middle Neolithic on. In some places we see less influence, in other places a bit more. However, I also think it looks like there was a reservoir of WHG like people or mixed WHG/EHG like people perhaps due east of central Europe who got swept up in the Indo-European expansions. Maybe they were turned into stockmen as happened with the aborigines in Australia. At any rate, given that they would now have a more steady and reliable source of food, they would also have started expanding in terms of numbers.
As to the mesolithic yDNA "I" people of Europe, I've said before and I'll say again that depending on the time and place they would have been different autosomally, from a totally WHG person to a totally EEF person. The I2a people who became EEF in the Balkans were different from the I2a people who lived in the steppe or the I2a people who lived north near the Baltic.
There's as yet no way to know whether the the direct male ancestor of some of the I2a men in the Balkans was always in the Balkans, or came from the steppe in the Bronze Age, or was a hunter gatherer in the north until he became part of the Slavic speaking groups which moved south in the Middle Ages thousands of years later.
There is nothing proto-Slavic about the people of the Vinca culture.
By the way, you and everybody else is free to speculate. People are not free, however, to quote a paper as the final word on a subject when ancient dna has proven the comment to be incorrect. That's misleading.
In terms Y-DNA, they are G2a, I2a and F* carriers. I think that F* carriers could be G carriers too, or perhaps T carriers. For me it was big change in past that hunter gatherers adapted and with flow of time became farmers. Key word is adaptation.
Look at post#12, for F* it cannot be G as it was tested negative
Sile, I sow that.
It can be T, it would be significant if it is so, please explain in details.
Vinca culture was great and significant for cultures which draw upon its heritage.
G2a were original farmers, as Le Brok says, and they spread farming in Europe, I2a had transition from hunter gatherers to farmers what is big significance in the human past, if F* were T carriers it means that T carriers gave contribution this magnificent culture.
E-V13, J2 and C carriers came later, they participated in other cultures (Sopot, Lengyel).
E-V13, J2 and C carriers came later, they participated in other cultures (Sopot, Lengyel).
So far we only have one y dna sample from Vinca culture, and it turned out as G2a. I would expect E-V13 and J2 to have been part of this culture since we know these two were found in the neighboring Sopot and Lengyel cultures ~7000 ybp. Vinca is dated from 5700 BC to 4500 BC, so it fits well with the emergence of these two haplogroups in the Balkans.
Yes, I know it. Do you know that women in Slavic countries are very free. I don't think here about modern feminism, but they are free to express own sexuality. Males in Slavic countries are lucky men. Also, women have own authority and play significant role in society. Therefore and today you can read in books that Slavic world is society with female values. I can you show studies about it. It is difference comparing to classical capitalistic society where males values are more dominant.
There is one anecdote about Russians. They were pagans very long. Emissaries of the monotheistic religions came to the Russians rules and nobles to convert Russians in their faith. Muslim emissaries were very active. There are two reasons why Russians didn't convert to Islam. First is alcohol, Russian rulers explained to Muslim emissaries that Russians can't deny alcohol, they requested that this rule don't apply to Russians. But real reason is Russian women of rulers and nobles didn't want to convert. If women had lesser influence in Russian society today all Russians would be Muslims. This fact took the Greek emissaries who explained to Russians that women in Orthodox Christianity are equally with men. Russians women explored it and exerted influence on their husbands to accept. Russians are eternally grateful to the Greeks because they were converted from paganism to monoteism.
Vinca culture has significance for Slavic world and many authors wrote about it. There is link between Vinca and later cultures with Slavs. Creators Vinca culture are farmers and hunter gatherers who adapted. In terms Y-DNA, they are G2a, I2a and F* carriers. I think that F* carriers could be G carriers too, or perhaps T carriers. For me it was big change in past that hunter gatherers adapted and with flow of time became farmers. Key word is adaptation.
I don't know what happened with G2a carriers? Why and how these people dissapeared. A disaster, disease, what? I want to hear opinions about it.
I2a carriers survived and they were able to transmitting knowledge and skills created in Vinca and later cultures. Where I2a and R1a carriers first came to the contact. Surely start was hard. R world, both R1a and R1b, was completely different. But we saw exchange between cultures always was base for progress. I2a carriers had something to learn R1a carriers who came from East. Of course, this is simplified, but must so because of clarity of short text.
Vinca and related cultures were significant base. Their holders would be something like Pre-Proto-Slavs. Slavic world is cultural, not genetical. I told, without I2a carriers, (and others of course), R1a carriers who came in Europe would be similar as Iranians. They would not be Slavs.
This is what always confused hystoricians and others scientists. There were a lot of R1a carriers in wider areaes but nowhere Slavs. Yes, it is true, because they bacame Slavs only in connection with I2a carriers. Therefore I2a carriers were Proto Slavs, not R1a carriers. R1a carriers in Iran, middle Asia, India etc. are not Slavs.
We can see dates of cultures:
Starcevo 6,200-5,200 BC
Vinca 5,700-4,500 BC
LBK 5,500-4,500 BC
Sopot 5,000 - 3,900 BC
Lengyel 5,000-3,400 BC.
Sopot and Lenyel cultures are younger. Cultures are different, and areas aren't same, some cultures have common elements, some culture precede others, (but there are no agreement between scientists). For example Lengyel is more cultural horizon than archaeological culture in narrow sense. LBK culture originated from Starcevo culture, which transmitted according Szecsenyi-Nagy the knowledge of farming and sedentary subsistence to the major part of Central Europe.
Key early farmers are G2a carriers and we can see them in big parts in Europe, not only in areas of these cultures. And LeBrok gives useful explanation. If others participated and when perhaps good explanation gives Maciamo for E-V13 (Thread: "What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?", #35).
Starcevo, and especially Vinca cultures are important for what I wrote, but I have no intention far to continue discussion about that in this thread. I only gave answer, if I should continue, it will be new thread but it should be good prepared.
The Slavs or proto-Slavs formed in a very different area, among very different people, with a very different autosomal profile, and at a much later time. That should be clear from the very learned posts Taranis has contributed to the Slavic threads.
The fact that proto-Slavs might have contained some I2a carriers, and Vinca may have had a few I2a carriers is irrelevant to that basic fact. For one thing, the I2a carried by the majority of the proto-Slavs was most probably a different branch from that carried by the people of Vinca, separated by thousands of years if they even carried it, since the one sample we have is G2a. The I2a carried by modern men in the Balkans is very different from the I2a of Neolithic Hungary, for example, as Fire-Haired has pointed out.
Regardless, the I2a people in the Balkans would have been autosomally very different from the I2a people in the north and on the steppe. Ydna is only a small part of someone's genetic make-up. You can have a black African and a Swede who both carry R1b. This is elementary stuff, Garrick. Going by your logic, the Sardinians are pre-proto-Slavs too, as are the Spaniards who carry I2a yDna.
The Slavs or the proto-Slavs or the pre-proto-Slavs did not form from the Neolithic people of the area around Vinca. The Slavs arrived very late in the Balkans, as a people carrying a different genetic signature, not a better or worse one, just a different one.
Now, we've gone off track enough. This is not a thread about Slavic ethnogenesis.
I have no intention or agenda to continue this discussion discussion any further. I agree, it is pretty evident that G2a was part of early Neolithic farmers. All I said is that it would be premature to say that E-V13 and J2 were not part of the Vinca culture as you suggested. The argument is however stronger at this point to propose that they were part of it, since Vinca falls in the mid Neolithic, especially considering that both of these haplogroups were found in the two different neighboring cultures. I don't think they just magically appeared in the neighboring Sopot and Langyel, and bypassing completely the somewhat earlier Vinca cculture. We need more ancient DNA from the area to jump to any conclusions though.
This thread has been viewed 29689 times.