There is little evidence to show U152 far to the east is NOT an alien introduction, either. We don't know. My understanding is that the U152 in Bashkortostan has low diversity. If anything, this indicates a recent founder rather than an ancient presence, but we don't know.
Mike, if you check back in my post history within this thread, you will see I have acknowledged exactly what you are saying.
I fully conceded that I can no more confirm that the far-eastern U-152 is a product of a relic local indigenous population, than I can assert that it is a imported, late arriving transplanted european population.
I think that it is less likely to be a modern or late arriving population because I do not foresee that such a western/europid population would have a lot of paternal reproductive success in a Islamic tribal state that was part of the repeated invasion forces that were primarily focused on brutalizing western europid populations that they could subject, and was not known for kind or benevolent treatment of these populations in their own homelands.
It is a lot more likely to my estimation that such a enslaved population arriving into a Tribal islamic turko-mongol state would find that its males lasted as long as the first hunnic/mongol raiding or provisioning party passed through.
Admittedly this is my OPINION, and presented as such, but it is founded in precedent.
What are you saying I "posited?" I don't remember positing anything about U152's origin. I speculate it expanded from the north side of the Alps including SE France. It could have originated far to the east, along with P312 and L11.
I am dealing with a third-party quoting you who infers that this is a western-euro originating population that arises in western europe at the same time and within the same conditions as all other P312. The TMRCA ancestor estimates and assumptions are effectively close to valueless, and many pundits have asserted their ability to confidently mathematically predict these ages, to the glee of those who wish to believe this. It is theory, and for specific mathematical reasons cannot be proven because of missing data that must be inferred, and mutational estimates that must be assumed.
For this reason, SNP ages and TMRCA should always be presented as educated opinion, not as fact. I am not saying that you are guilty of this, or criticizing you personally in this regard, but you see above what happens once these estimates are turned loose "in the wild", which is they are taken as holy gospel by those who want facts but do not have the ability to discern, or interest to discern, a educated guess from proven fact.
I disagree with you. U152 is not that much different in the proportions of its geographic spread than U106 or L21. If anything, Z196 is much more scattered, reaching up into the Scandinavian Peninsula, but also quite strong across France, Iberia and even surprisingly so in Germany and Eastern Europe. L21 can also be found, albeit in low frequencies in East Europe and in Iberia. U152 is predominately northern Italy and across the Alps up the Rhine and into Benelux... and as has been noted to the east and into Iberia lightly. L21, U106 and U152 each have a predominate territory but then end up in scattered placed. I'd say the elements of L11 that are different are P312* and Z196 for which it is harder to find a clearly predominant location. L11* would fit in as scattered too, but only lightly and to the hilt.
Undifferentiated L21 is a lost cause in trying to tie to any one population or culture, at this time. I am not pretending to be any sort of expert (or interested) in the latest advances in L21 SNP since it does not apply to me, and I do not really care to be honest.
IMHO, L21* is effectively a "waiting seat" holding a undifferentiated population until a deeper SNP can be found that is meaningful to its members, so including them as a example in the above statement is really a unfair inclusion of a population that cannot yet be assigned to a locally meaningful SNP.
I think like a lot of other Hg or SNP, (i.e.- nordtvedt=I1) U-152 should be left in large part to those who are in U-152 and are researching their own clade/SNP.
A lot of the comments regarding U-152 are coming from L21* individuals who are a VERY LARGE IN NUMBER, they are all members of the same message boards and same forums, and they are often basically "pissed" that there is very little they can determine, and are for some reason adamant on inserting themselves into discussion on U-152 and become furious if that discussion moves outside what they feel is the prevailing opinion on the array of message boards and forums that they are regurgitating information from.