R1* history, put together by me!

[Goga]

I think I solved the riddle, by putting everything together from different sources. Everything comes together and all questions answered.

Y-DNA haplogorup R* could have been evolved somewhere in Central Asia.

After some time R* migrated into the Iranian Plateau and evolved into R1*, for about 30,000 years ago.

R1* became a ‘Caucasus’ component marker. After couple thousands of years when the ice age ended in Northern Eurasia, R1* migrated into Europe and back into the Central Asia as R1a.

One part of R1* that ended up in the Eastern Europe did that via Central Asia. R1a went to Central Asia, picked up some (2-3%) Siberian genes and became a Gedrosia component. After that it migrated into Europe from Central Asia. Gedrosia component diluted in Eastern Europe, but there's still 30% of Gedrosia component left in North_European component.

One part of R1* stayed for a little while on the Iranian plateau, evolved into R1b and then, went directly to Western Europe via Anatolian plains.

 

[bicicleur 2]

After some time R* migrated into the Iranian Plateau

What was he looking for on the Iranian plateau, I don't think it was an interesting place, 30.000 years ago.

 

[Aberdeen]

I don't buy your timeline, Goga. Mal'ta Boy was R* about 24,000 years ago, so R1a and R1b clearly weren't around yet, unless you think that Mal'ta Boy was just an isolated surviving R*. To me, it seems more likely that R originally evolved in southern Siberia.

I also don't buy the idea of early Indo-Europeans going southeast then north then west around the Caspian Sea - there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes, just as indicated in their legends. If the Maykop people were precursors of the Indo-Europeans, there's no reason they wouldn't have just gone north from the Caucasus onto the steppes to join nomadic R1a folk.

 

[bicicleur 2]

This looks interesting.
Where did you get the numbers of mutations?
On how many sites where the mutations tested?

 

[Aberdeen]

Sorry, Goga, but the more I look at your diagrams and comments, the more they baffle me.

 

[Goga]

What was he looking for on the Iranian plateau, I don't think it was an interesting place, 30.000 years ago.

Food? Better, warmer climate. Iranian Plateau looked different in the past.

 

[Goga]

I don't buy your timeline, Goga. Mal'ta Boy was R* about 24,000 years ago, so R1a and R1b clearly weren't around yet, unless you think that Mal'ta Boy was just an isolated surviving R*. To me, it seems more likely that R originally evolved in southern Siberia.


I also don't buy the idea of early Indo-Europeans going southeast then north then west around the Caspian Sea - there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes, just as indicated in their legends. If the Maykop people were precursors of the Indo-Europeans, there's no reason they wouldn't have just gone north from the Caucasus onto the steppes to join nomadic R1a folk.

This timeline wasn't made by me, but showed to me by a critic of my theory. I suggested to him that R1* evolved much later, but he showed to me that R1* was evolved much earlier. Accordin to him (I have no knowledge on this) MA1 is an isolated case. But the time is not really changing the migation pattern.

This migration was occured thousands years before the Medes or Persians ever existed. I'm talking about early R1a*, Medes & Persians came much later and were late R1a-Z94 or something..

I'm talking about the time when admix components were forming.

 

[Goga]

This looks interesting.
Where did you get the numbers of mutations?
On how many sites where the mutations tested?

It's not my timeline. I've got this from somebody else. I used this only for illustration. They're talking abot this timeline here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...first-FGC-result&p=20838&viewfull=1#post20838

 

[Goga]

Sorry, Goga, but the more I look at your diagrams and comments, the more they baffle me.

It's ok, mate. I'll be a very happy person if they make you think only for 1 minute. Then I achived my purpose.

 

[LeBrok]

@Goga. When using someone elses work please provide the source information, or link to the source material.

 

[Aberdeen]

This timeline wasn't made by me, but showed to me by a critic of my theory. I suggested to him that R1* evolved much later, but he showed to me that R1* was evolved much earlier. Accordin to him (I have no knowledge on this) MA1 is an isolated case. But the time is not really changing the migation pattern.

This migration was occured thousands years before the Medes or Persians ever existed. I'm talking about early R1a*, Medes & Persians came much later and were late R1a-Z94 or something..

I'm talking about the time when admix components were forming.

I'd be interested in seeing any evidence that R1a and R1b evolved that long ago. And if your migration map shows a migration that happened thousands of years before the Medes and Persians, you can't be talking about the Indo-Europeans, so why are the Doric Greeks shown on the map? I don't understand.

 

[Goga]

I'd be interested in seeing any evidence that R1a and R1b evolved that long ago. And if your migration map shows a migration that happened thousands of years before the Medes and Persians, you can't be talking about the Indo-Europeans, so why are the Doric Greeks shown on the map? I don't understand.

As you can read on that 23andme source, they believe that R1* arose in the Middle East at least 15,000 years ago. So it is saying hat R1* is from the Near East. If we take a look at the first time line, it says that R1* evolved between 28,000 and 34,000 years ago. Between 28,000 and 34,000 years ago, some of R1* headed to the south into the Iranian Plateau, where it was a warmer. R1* stayed in the Near East for a while before migrating again in 2 waves, this time 1 line went to Europe, second line went to Central Asia. The first wave of R1* went to Central Asia and became R1*, this took place at least 15,000 years ago, but can also be 20,000 years ago. Second part of R1* that stayed in Near East and later migrated into Europe, evolved later in R1b. The second wave of R1* out of Near East via Anatolia into Europe occured much later than the first wave. When? I'm not sure.

The Medes evolved from Matiene (Mittani, Mannaens) in the Middle East only 3,000-3,500 years ago, they were very late classical Iranian people. While R1* or R1a went into Central Asia maybe 15,000 years ago. 15,000 years ago when this 'first wave' migration occured, it was long before the Indo-Europeans.

That western Arrow of Doric is the 'Second Wave' of R1* or in this case R1b migration into Europe. I think this happened maybe 6,000-9,000 years ago. Copper or Bronze age diffusion? It's possible that this 'second wave' was already Indo-European.

 

[Aberdeen]

..............

The Medes evolved from Matiene (Mittani, Mannaens) in the Middle East only 3,000-3,500 years ago, they were very late classical Iranian people. While R1* or R1a went into Central Asia maybe 15,000 years ago. 15,000 years ago when this 'first wave' migration occured, it was long before the Indo-Europeans.

That western Arrow of Doric is the 'Second Wave' of R1* or in this case R1b migration into Europe. I think this happened maybe 6,000-9,000 years ago. Copper or Bronze age diffusion? It's possible that this 'second wave' was already Indo-European.

Yes, the Medes and Persians entered Iran when their language had already evolved away from the initial proto-Indo-European into a distinct language - I doubt there were Indo-Europeans in Iran before that. But how could the Dorics already be IE 6000-9000 years ago in Anatolia? Linguists tell us that a new language usually evolves in a very specific area, and separates into distinct languages fairly quickly once a geographic separation occurs. Even if the linguists are wrong about the rate at which languages changed in the past, the IE expansion from the steppes seems to be supported by archeological evidence and R1a seems to have been an important part of the IE expansion, since we find it all over Europe and Asia, and in modern India R1a, and to some extent J2, seem to be the main haplotypes of the Brahmins who are the guardians of what evolved out of the IE invasions in that part of the world. I have trouble seeing the R1b folk as possible Indo-Europeans 6000-9000 years ago if you think they were entering Greece from Anatolia back then. Either R1b folk weren't IE when they entered Europe or Maciamo is right about them being part of the IE expansion from the steppe in the early bronze age, even though there's not much genetic trace of R1b having expanded from that area.

 

[Goga]

Yes, the Medes and Persians entered Iran when their language had already evolved away from the initial proto-Indo-European into a distinct language - I doubt there were Indo-Europeans in Iran before that. But how could the Dorics already be IE 6000-9000 years ago in Anatolia? Linguists tell us that a new language usually evolves in a very specific area, and separates into distinct languages fairly quickly once a geographic separation occurs. Even if the linguists are wrong about the rate at which languages changed in the past, the IE expansion from the steppes seems to be supported by archeological evidence and R1a seems to have been an important part of the IE expansion, since we find it all over Europe and Asia, and in modern India R1a, and to some extent J2, seem to be the main haplotypes of the Brahmins who are the guardians of what evolved out of the IE invasions in that part of the world. I have trouble seeing the R1b folk as possible Indo-Europeans 6000-9000 years ago if you think they were entering Greece from Anatolia back then. Either R1b folk weren't IE when they entered Europe or Maciamo is right about them being part of the IE expansion from the steppe in the early bronze age, even though there's not much genetic trace of R1b having expanded from that area.

This is OT, but the Medes spoke a West Iranian language (Avestan or close to Avestan). According to me West Iranian languages evolved in the Near East from Near Eastern proto-Iranians like Matiene (Mittani) or Kassites.

It's possible that the 'second wave' migration of R1* (in this case R1b) occured between South and North Caucasus.

 

[Aberdeen]

This is OT, but the Medes spoke a West Iranian language (Avestan or close to Avestan). According to me West Iranian languages evolved in the Near East from Near Eastern proto-Iranians like Matiene (Mittani) or Kassites.

It's possible that the 'second wave' migration of R1* (in this case R1b) occured between South and North Caucasus.

I don't think so. The Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language and were busy invading Iran about 3500 years ago, about the time the Mitanni were creating their short-lived kingdom in western Anatolia. And the experts seem to consider the Mitanni to be a multilingual folk who were probably ruled by an IE elite. Same for the Kassites who conquered large parts of what is now Iraq about the same time - they're assumed to have been largely non-IE, although perhaps ruled by an IE elite. So, at approximately the time these two groups were coming into being, the Medes were in the process of bringing a branch of the Iranian language to Iran. And none of that explains your view that the Dorians invaded Greece as IE folk 6000-9000 years ago. I may be wrong, but I personally don't think any of this holds together.

 

[Alan]

I don't think so. The Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language and were busy invading Iran about 3500 years ago, about the time the Mitanni were creating their short-lived kingdom in western Anatolia. And the experts seem to consider the Mitanni to be a multilingual folk who were probably ruled by an IE elite. Same for the Kassites who conquered large parts of what is now Iraq about the same time - they're assumed to have been largely non-IE, although perhaps ruled by an IE elite. So, at approximately the time these two groups were coming into being, the Medes were in the process of bringing a branch of the Iranian language to Iran. And none of that explains your view that the Dorians invaded Greece as IE folk 6000-9000 years ago. I may be wrong, but I personally don't think any of this holds together.

What about if the Mitanni Elite was actually the Medes who just fled their homeland in Eastern Anatolia (Umman Manda). I don't remember where but I remember to have red some papers, that the Greeks and other sources associated the Medes with the Mitannis.

I for some reasons believe in this theory Gutians=Mitanni=Medes.

Umman Manda (Akkadian for host of Manda) is a term used in the early second and first millennia BC for a poorly known people in ancient near east whom by some scholars are identified as to be of Indo-European origin. They have been identified as in different contexts as Hurrians, Elamites, Medes, Cimmerians, and Scythians.^[1] The homeland of Ummanda seems to be somewhere from Central Anatolia to north or northeastern Babylonia in what later came to be known as Mitanni, Mannae and Media, respectively. Zaluti, a leader of Ummanda Manda is mentioned, whose name seems to have an Indo-Iranian etymology. He is even suggested to be identified with Salitis the founder of the Hyksos, the Fifteenth dynasty of Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umman-Manda

 

[Goga]

And none of that explains your view that the Dorians invaded Greece as IE folk 6000-9000 years ago. I may be wrong, but I personally don't think any of this holds together.

I don't know much about Dorians. Forget about them for a sec. By the 'second wave' migration iI mean R1b folks in general and not some kind of tribes/people by name. I wrote earlier that I do consider it as a very possibility that Rb1 migrated from South to North Caucasus, R1b could also take a boat and crossed the Black Sea.


It's about an idea that R1b took a direct route to Europe, while R1a took a passage via Central Asia before entering Easter Europe. And first wave left much earlier than the second wave.

 

[Goga]

I don't think so. The Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language and were busy invading Iran about 3500 years ago, about the time the Mitanni were creating their short-lived kingdom in western Anatolia. And the experts seem to consider the Mitanni to be a multilingual folk who were probably ruled by an IE elite. Same for the Kassites who conquered large parts of what is now Iraq about the same time - they're assumed to have been largely non-IE, although perhaps ruled by an IE elite

This is off topic, but let me say this. I'm tired of always speaking about the same d*mn thing. People don't want to understand, and I don't feel te urge anymore to explain them something about my native language. This language is a realty that nobody can change. It is what it is.
But for the last time, the Medes spoke a West Iranian language. That language was only common in the Near East and nowhere else, due to the ergative constrution. East Iranian languages in Central Asia don't have ergatve construction. Ergative construction is very common in Caucasian and Proto-Semitic languages and was also part of proto-Iranian. The language of te Medes was born in Near East where other ergtative languages were spoken. On internet alot info is wrong and in conflict with known facts.
Ancient Greeks never wrote that the Medes were not native to their homeland or that the Medes came from somewhere else. According to the ancient Greeks the Medes were native to their homeland and actually for the Greeks & Assyrians the Mittani, Matiene and the Medes were all the same people.
It's much more complicated then most think

 

[Aberdeen]

What about if the Mitanni Elite was actually the Medes who just fled their homeland in Eastern Anatolia (Umman Manda). I don't remember where but I remember to have red some papers, that the Greeks and other sources associated the Medes with the Mitannis.

I for some reasons believe in this theory Gutians=Mitanni=Medes.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umman-Manda

Well, according to an unimpeachable source (Wikipedia), the Hurrian language was not related to either the Indo-European or Semitic languages. Since I know very little about linguistics, I can't say for sure whether that's the truth. However, I have read a far bit about how linguists believe that new bodies of language evolve, and I believe the theory is that it happens in a fairly limited locale, with the original proto-language evolving fairly rapidly into separate but related languages once the initial group spreads out. And I'm convinced, on the basis of what experts have to say about the archeological evidence, that the IE expansion started from the steppes of Southern Russia, which to me means that the main vehicle of such an expansion would have been people who were primarily eastern Europeans, who I believe were predominantly of the R1a haplotype. I therefore think that the IE proto-language developed someplace other than Anatolia, and that any IE languages that seem to have some Semetic characteristics are as a result of later influences. However, I am aware of the Anatolian hypothesis with respect to the IE homeland, which would put a whole different complexion on the development of the IE proto-language and who developed it. I assume that sort of thing is more in line with your thinking on the subject of the IE homeland?

 

[Alan]

Well, according to an unimpeachable source (Wikipedia), the Hurrian language was not related to either the Indo-European or Semitic languages. Since I know very little about linguistics, I can't say for sure whether that's the truth. However, I have read a far bit about how linguists believe that new bodies of language evolve, and I believe the theory is that it happens in a fairly limited locale, with the original proto-language evolving fairly rapidly into separate but related languages once the initial group spreads out. And I'm convinced, on the basis of what experts have to say about the archeological evidence, that the IE expansion started from the steppes of Southern Russia, which to me means that the main vehicle of such an expansion would have been people who were primarily eastern Europeans, who I believe were predominantly of the R1a haplotype. I therefore think that the IE proto-language developed someplace other than Anatolia, and that any IE languages that seem to have some Semetic characteristics are as a result of later influences. However, I am aware of the Anatolian hypothesis with respect to the IE homeland, which would put a whole different complexion on the development of the IE proto-language and who developed it. I assume that sort of thing is more in line with your thinking on the subject of the IE homeland?

The thing is, Hurrians had allot of Indo European traditions and if one thing I have learned, it is when linguists classify a language as isolated it could very simply mean that they haven't yet identified it.

Other than that I don't believe that the Medes-Mitanni connection and Umman Manda is connected to Hurrians but that this land, where Hurrians resided too, was populated by Indo European tribes.

As I said I remember sources saying that the Medes were basically descend from the Mitanni.

You probably misunderstood something. That Umman Manda was located in between Central Anatolia and Babylon (South Mesopotamia) doesn't mean proto Indo Europeans had to have come from there too. Just that this area was a of importance for the Near Eastern Indo European groups. Also the "Anatolian hypothesis" places the origin of Indo European in West_Central Anatolia. While Umman Manda was Central Anatolia to South Mesopotamia.